Lost Disc Rule Loophole?

Ok. A friend of mine explained this situation to me, and so I'd like to explain it to you and hear any thoughs:

During the first round of a tournament, a player looses his disc in the shule. The clock is started, and the whole group searches, but alas, the disc, she is lost. The player takes his shot from the place that the group determines it was last seen. Subsequently, he recieves a 4 on the hole including a one stroke penalty for a lost disc.

When the group returns to Tourament Central, the player sees his driver on the table near the scoring area. He immediately tells the TD that he needs the penalty stroke removed from his card. When the baffled TD asks why, the player cites rule 803.10 C:

"If it is discovered, prior to the completion of the tournament, that a player's disc that was declared lost had been removed or taken , then the player shall have the penalty throw for the lost disc subtracted from his or her score."

Notice that the player appears to be correct, given the rather literal reading of this rule. The disc was removed and taken back to the scorer's table. Should they recieve a penalty throw? I personally don't think so, but only because I don't think it jives with the spirit of the rule, but I would be interested to hear all of the opinions out there. Has anyone ever dealt with this? Does some sort of temporal restriction need to be added to the wording of this rule? Do these jeans make my butt look big?

[gnduke]

The rule applies to discs that were removed or taken before he had a chance to look for the disc. He would need to find the player that had turned in his disc and decide if the disc was removed before he got to where the disc was and declared a lost disc. The player that picked up the disc in play then would be given penalty strokes for moving a disc in play.

[kingrat6931]

Good thread,Eric! There will, at some time, be an airhead that will try to use that rule to his advantage. It's a good thing that we have TDs. A good TD, like Gordo, would ask the airhead if he left his strait-jacket in his car or if he lost it while he was searching for the offending disc!
The PDGA rules are made for us folks that have common sense. The player should find the person who found the disc and thank him for returning it, offering a small reward for his trouble because it probably was candy plastic and cost him $25.
BTW, the jeans look O.K. It's the butt you need to work on :D

kingrat tipz (http://www.geocities.com/kingrat6931/)

[pterodactyl]

End of thread...

Well, I don't know. The literal reading of the rule doesn't suppy a temporal restriction to "removed or taken." I see this as a rule needing to be rewritten, but that's just me. And I agree with "common sense" being the cure to this rule, but unfortuantely, it's not that common anymore.

[rhett]

If the finder can't be found, benefit of the doubt would have to go to the thrower wouldn't it? The thrower doesn't have to prove that the disc was moved prior to the search. If it's possibe that it was, then benefit of the doubt kicks in.

It's hard to say without knowing the layout of the course. If there are absolutely no other fairways anywhere near the spot of the lost disc, then there really is no doubt. But if there is a fairway on the other side of the schuul, then it's possible that someone else was bushwacking and found it before the thrower arrived at the scene.

If the finder can't be found, benefit of the doubt would have to go to the thrower wouldn't it? The thrower doesn't have to prove that the disc was moved prior to the search. If it's possibe that it was, then benefit of the doubt kicks in.


Sorry, Rhett, gotta disagree with you.

The mere finding of a lost disc in a location other than where it was presumed to have been lost is not sufficient to meet the condition set out in 803.10.C for having the penalty stroke removed.

The operative words in 803.10.C are "had been."

"Had been" is past perfect tense, which denotes that one action or situation in the past occurred before another action or situation in the past. In the context of 803.10, that means that a player/TD must establish definitively that the removal or taking occurred prior to the disc being declared lost in order for the penalty stroke to be removed.

[exczar]

I would say that the timing would need to be established before the penalty stroke would be erased.

If the disc was "lost" on hole 18, which was the player's first hole, a group coming by after them could have found it and turned it in, and when the orig. group comes in from finishing on 17 and sees it, there should be no assumption as to when it was turned in.

In short, whoever is at the table should note who turned it in, and if possible, the time at which the person found the disc, in order to establish whether it was picked up at the time of the throw or many minutes past the throw.

[exczar]

Hasn't it been established that if the disc is found after the 3 minutes are up, it still has to be thrown from where it is found?

Hope the Tourny central table isn't too far from the basket! :D

I believe that the penalty law should still apply...... First the disc was not found by the group within the 3 mins time frame! I had a recovered disc on the table during tournament when my group and i couldn't find it! Besides its just one stroke.... :DHopefully on next round you kick butt!

[Moderator005]

I think the point of all this is that merely having the loophole in existence opens up the possibilities for argument for taking away the penalty stroke, and can easily be avoided by removing the loophole.

Why doesn't someone suggest the language to be added to rule 803.10 C that removes the loophole, and then we can forward it to the Rules Committee for the next revision.

I think the point of all this is that merely having the loophole in existence opens up the possibilities for argument for taking away the penalty stroke, and can easily be avoided by removing the loophole.

Why doesn't someone suggest the language to be added to rule 803.10 C that removes the loophole, and then we can forward it to the Rules Committee for the next revision.



There is no loophole. What there is is a fundamental and widespread failure to grasp an elementary principle of English grammar.

The temporal aspect of the past perfect tense "had been removed or taken" <font color="red">explicitly requires</font> a finding that the removal or taking of the disc occurred before the disc was declared lost in order for the penalty stroke to be removed. Given the appalling ignorance of and general disregard for English grammar among the hoi polloi, however, it may be necessary to revise the wording of 803.10.C to make this clear. My suggestion:

"C. If, at any point prior to the completion of the tournament, it is established that a player's disc was removed or taken prior to the disc being declared lost, then the player shall have the penalty throw for the lost disc subtracted from his or her score."

That makes sense to me. I vote for Felix's version. :)

[keithjohnson]

this happened to me in rockledge, florida at a tournament(rockledge has 4 fairways in 400(REALLY)feet of width)

on my last hole of the first round i was teeing off first, throwing along the edge of the course at a hole going east and the shot went into a clump of weeds on the edge of the fairway...(hole 6) two of the other 3 players didn't clear some early trees and we spent time looking for their discs and they both took a couple more shots to get to the area where my disc seen by all of us...of course there is no disc...we look for 2 minutes(it was 2 minutes back in the old days) and i assume a twilight zone episode is being filmed as my disc has vanished....i finish the hole and go back to tournament central where a guy comes up to me and says ..."hey keith i found your disc that you left on the course,i knew you would like to get it back so i brought it in for you"....after pummeling him senseless i took my disc from his bloody hands(just kidding about that last part of the sentence)
he was playing his last hole(hole 8) and shanked his drive into the weeds next to my disc and not seeing anyone else on the course near there figured it had been left behind and picked it up...
we went to the td who took the lost disc stroke off according to the rule, which is written just fine if you read it (as felix so eloquently points out)

so to sum it up....yes it does happen and yes it is valid to get it corrected.

keith

[20460chase]

dang.

[gnduke]

Did they pick up the 2 stroke penalty from 803.6 ?

[Lyle O Ross]

There is a simple solution to this - if you find a disc during play, look for the owner (to help find errant throws) but leave the disc where it is. Return at the end of the round and retrieve the disc. This allows you to avoid the possibility of messing up someone's round - potential strokes, loss of focus etc.

[Moderator005]

I don't know about that. There's a lot of shady people out there, and if I find one of my buddies cherished 1st Run CE Valkyries, and after checking thoroughly first to see if this is perhaps his throw from another hole, I'm going to pick it up.

[neonnoodle]

I haven't read the rest of this thread, but Lyle's advice is absolutely the best way to proceed. Look around for the owner, remember where it was, even tell your group about it, then LEAVE IT THERE until the round is officially completed.

It is no fun to get stroked for doing something you think is being helpful to another player. If it isn't your disc don't touch it.

[oxalate]

Jeff's mention of shady people reminded me of a situation that occurred a few weeks ago.

What if a non-player steals an in-play disc? The basket is obscured from the teepad by a thin treeline. 40 feet or so behind the basket runs a pedestrian path. Basket and path are in the open, mowed area of the park. Disc clearly made it to the open area, but could not be located after searching. Several teens are seen walking on path towards the basket after the group has teed but before they get to their lies. Teens are not to be found when they arrive at their lies and one disc is missing.

[rhett]

So we are back to the original question. Benefit of the doubt goes to the thrower. If the lost disc is at tourney central when the player turns in his/her card, then benefit of the doubt should prevail on removing the lost disc stroke. And yes, consideration should be taken as to whether there is doubt or not. You don't automatically remove the stroke, but if it is possible that it was taken before the search for it ended, then the stroke goes away.

That is one of our basic tenets. Benefit of the doubt always goes to the thrower.

[LouMoreno]

That just happened to me at a mini at Pease Park on Saturday morning.

We let 2 casuals play through while looking for a lost disc on hole 16. The disc is found, the player throws, I go up to my lie in the middle of the fairway and my 10x Eagle is gone. :mad:

Not only was the disc gone but the punks that played through were nowhere to be found either.

[oxalate]

Benefit of the doubt was given to the player whose disc was stolen. Of course, this happened on the lead card of the Open division and the player whose disc was stolen ended up winning by 1 stroke.

So we are back to the original question. Benefit of the doubt goes to the thrower. If the lost disc is at tourney central when the player turns in his/her card, then benefit of the doubt should prevail on removing the lost disc stroke. And yes, consideration should be taken as to whether there is doubt or not. You don't automatically remove the stroke, but if it is possible that it was taken before the search for it ended, then the stroke goes away.

That is one of our basic tenets. Benefit of the doubt always goes to the thrower.

Not quite. Benefit of the doubt comes into play when a group cannot reach a majority decision; otherwise, a majority decision trumps benefit of the doubt. Also, the Rules do not require officials or TDs to grant a thrower benefit of the doubt.


803.00.C. Appeals:
(1) <font color="red">When a group cannot reach a majority decision regarding a ruling,</font> the benefit of the doubt shall be given to the thrower. However, any player may seek the ruling of an official, and the official's ruling shall supersede the group's ruling. Any player desiring an appeal of the group's decision shall promptly and clearly express that desire to the group. ...

(3) If an official is not readily available, the group shall proceed in one of two ways. The group <font color="red">may</font> reach a majority decision with the benefit of the doubt going to the thrower, and continue play.

[N.B. - A group which has reached a majority decision may, on appeal, change its decision taking benefit of the doubt into consideration, but is not REQUIRED to do so.]