Disc limit

If I want to have a sanctioned tournament that places a limit on the number of discs the player may carry, does it have to be an X-tier?

There is no wording in the rules (that I can find) that says anything about the number of discs the player can carry, therefore a player can currently carry as many discs as he/she wants, can get more discs mid-round, can borrow a friend's disc, etc.

<font color="green">804.01 C. No rules may be stipulated which conflict with the PDGA Rules of Play, unless approved by the Competition Director of the PDGA. </font>

Apparently I'm free to stipulate any rule I want as long as it does not "conflict with the PDGA Rules of Play", correct? Since this proposed rule (disc limit) does not conflict with any existing rules, it would not have to be approved by the Competition Director, and I would not have to get X-tier sanctioning. Anyone have a different interpretation?

[ck34]

Will players be allowed to replace lost discs from their vehicles during play? Or, can players share discs? What about caddies or friends who carry discs? And if you find a disc during the round, you have to leave it there to avoid penalty?

I will have to address all those situations. As long as I'm careful not to contradict any existing rules though, I don't need special permission from Nez, right?

To quicly answer your questions, I'm thinking:
Not without an additional penalty.
No.
No borrowing from anyone.
You can pick it up, but can't throw it (I'd treat it the same as a disc that becomes illegal during play).

[nez]

The limitation of the number of discs in a PDGA sanctioned event would constitute a requirement to apply for X-tier status, as by inference, the Rules allow unlimited number of discs and you pose to restrict this.

Dave "Nez" Nesbitt
PDGA Competition Director

[rhett]

Don't tell me, let me guess: 14 disc limit, and they all have to be white. Right? :D

[dannyreeves]

I have always wanted a rule that limited the number of discs carried. !2 or 14ish.

Of course, this would become one of those rules that were never enforced.

Why? If somebody wants to carry 40 discs - so be it. If I remember right, Ron Russell played with seven...or was it nine when he won the Worlds

[slo]

Unless he's changed policy since I attended the Mission Trails event there , Reese Van Swinea [i]already has the 14-disc limitation for his fly 18 events...the reasoning being it brings the sport [his sport?] more in line with traditional B/S golf rules.

...I have no clue as to whether the Fly 18 tour is affiliated with the WFDF...anybody?

[rhett]

What "Fly-18 Tour"?

BTW, the "14 white discs" thing is a reference to Reese, since that was part of his original "vision".

[slo]

Is "it" in that sad of a state? Remember the ads in DGWN schticking "that" tour as the 'richest'?

The limitation of the number of discs in a PDGA sanctioned event would constitute a requirement to apply for X-tier status, as by inference, the Rules allow unlimited number of discs and you pose to restrict this.




I disagree. The rule I quoted says that special rules only require x-tier status if they explicitly (not implicitly) conflict with an existing rule.

If I made a rule that oh... required collared shirts, would that require x-tier status? The existing rules by inference allow any shirt, or no shirt at all.

Don't tell me, let me guess: 14 disc limit, and they all have to be white. Right? :D



Actually, just one disc. It's been a traditional Tucson tourney, that will be sanctioned for the first time this year.

[gnduke]

What do you want to accomplish with a disc limit ?

To restrict the players choices or to require the player to outfit their bag properly for the current course/weather conditions ?

I don't think many players use more than 7 discs and a putter in a round.

To be restrictive, the limit would have to be less than 7+1.
To require proper disc selection in the bag it needs to be about 7+1.
14 discs is not restrictive, and not based on anything realistic.

14 clubs is a requirement for BG because each club is hit for a different specific distance. You don't have one club that you can use for a 280 yard and a 350 yard hole with equal effectiveness. In DG you do have discs that can be used effectively from 280' - 350', and respectably from 180' - 400'.

Actually, just one disc. It's been a traditional Tucson tourney, that will be sanctioned for the first time this year.


--

Is there an echo in here?

[rhett]

I disagree. The rule I quoted says that special rules only require x-tier status if they explicitly (not implicitly) conflict with an existing rule.

If I made a rule that oh... required collared shirts, would that require x-tier status? The existing rules by inference allow any shirt, or no shirt at all.



I agree with Jim's point in his disagreement.

[keithjohnson]

how many discs can i use in the one disc event???
one per each hole start to finish?
one for each round start to finish?
if i lose it can i get another one from my friend on the card and share it during the hole/round?
can i change it during the round?
can i change it between rounds?
can i use my mini as my one disc?
do i have to use my mini to mark where my one disc is or can i flip my one disc, pick it up and then throw from the mark in the sand?
if i foot fault,and am called and seconded on it, how can i continue play as i cannot retrieve my throw(except on a putt)?
what if i throw into the river, do i still have 30 seconds to retrieve my disc and make the next throw?
what if the td is asking stupid questions on the message board,is he still allowed to be the td?
what if the td is asking valid questions that might need competition director appproval,is his joking attitude going to cause problems?
what if i'm just bored on mother's day and have nothing better to do?

looking forward to this thread ending now that i've posted on it :D

keith

[nez]

The limitation of the number of discs in a PDGA sanctioned event would constitute a requirement to apply for X-tier status, as by inference, the Rules allow unlimited number of discs and you pose to restrict this.



This ruling has been confirmed with the PDGA Executive Director. If you wish to sanction a one-disc or any other tournament where the rules are more restrictive or contrary to the PDGA Rules of Play, you must request an X-tier status exemption to the PDGA Competion Director.

Regards,


Dave "Nez" Nesbitt
PDGA Competition Director

If you wish to sanction ... any other tournament where the rules are more restrictive ... [than] the PDGA Rules of Play, you must request an X-tier status exemption to the PDGA Competion Director.




Would this apply to dress codes as well? Yes, I'm being somewhat of a smartass, but it is a legitimate question.

[gnduke]

Time for a toga tourney

[slowmo_1]

Time for a toga tourney



heh, strip disc golf?

[gnduke]

have to be on mixed cards

[neonnoodle]

Jim,

That doesn't quite sound right. Not sure why at this point, but wouldn't it be like requiring players to play with only one shoe on?

Nick

Nick, anyone is free to not play in the event if they don't like the format.

[keithjohnson]

The limitation of the number of discs in a PDGA sanctioned event would constitute a requirement to apply for X-tier status, as by inference, the Rules allow unlimited number of discs and you pose to restrict this.





This ruling has been confirmed with the PDGA Executive Director. If you wish to sanction a one-disc or any other tournament where the rules are more restrictive or contrary to the PDGA Rules of Play, you must request an X-tier status exemption to the PDGA Competion Director.

Regards,


Dave "Nez" Nesbitt
PDGA Competition Director



already registered it as xb tier event and paid sanctioning fees...
i'm still curious on some of the legitimate questions i asked above though,such as foot fault and time limits...does x tier allow me to make exception to those rules also?

does x tier allow me to make exception to those rules also?



Sure, just list all exceptions when you write your proposal to Nez.

[neonnoodle]

Yes, I suppose you are right. Not quite sure why you'd want to make such an event PDGA though. The idea is to play disc golf in it's generally accepted format. For me such an event would not represent playing PDGA disc golf (which is not necessarily a bad thing, just something else, like the one and done, or the Cobra Open in Japan).

Is there a point to this? Are you strongly against folks having more than a certain number of discs? If so may I ask why?

As I said above, it's a traditional tourney here in Tucson. It's been going on longer than I've lived in Az., so I don't the reasoning behind the format.

It is still playing disc golf "in it's generally accepted format", just with a limit on discs. It's not like we're suddenly playing ultimate or discathon. Besides, plenty of recreational players only use a single disc.

Keith is running it this year, and wants to make it PDGA sanctioned. His choice. I was trying to get around making it an X-tier by pointing out that the disc limit does not conflict with any existing rule. However, allowing the player to re-use the same disc after a foot fault without penalty, and possibly some of the other scenarios do make the x-tier format required in my mind.

That said, isn't it the purpose of X-tiers to allow eXperimenting with different rules?

If you wish to sanction ... any other tournament where the rules are more restrictive ... [than] the PDGA Rules of Play, you must request an X-tier status exemption to the PDGA Competion Director.




Would this apply to dress codes as well? Yes, I'm being somewhat of a smartass, but it is a legitimate question.



How about a rule that bans smoking? That's being more restrictive than the PDGA Rules of Play.

That's a mighty slippery slope you've put yourself on, Nez.

[gnduke]

If the park bans smoking, then it is already covered in the rules (illegal activities). If not, it should probably be an X-Tier event.

[seewhere]

I am pretty sure the PDGA is not even sure how they got on that slope :)

As I said above, it's a traditional tourney here in Tucson. It's been going on longer than I've lived in Az., so I don't the reasoning behind the format.

It is still playing disc golf "in it's generally accepted format", just with a limit on discs.



Just because something has been going on for a long time does not mean that there is no reason to question its existence.
I do have one question, though, what is the length of this course??
Because I do look at discs much like golf clubs truthfully.
Something like this
Putter - Wedge
Spider - 9 Iron
Teebird - 6 Iron
Eagle - 2 Iron
Beast - 3 Wood
Crush - Driver

Instead of trying to overthrow my Spider, I will use the Teebird.
Same as with ball golf for me, instead of grunting my 9 Iron, I will use my 8 Iron and so forth.

[dannyreeves]

Teebird - 6 iron??? That is weird.

[rhett]

A one-disc tourney is a good ole fashioned style tourney. Nothing wrong with it. I would hope that the one disc is "Classic" only.

I'd still like to hear the ruling on a collared-shirt-only tourney being X-tier. I don't see how you can get around it with the one-disc thing being forced to go x-tier.

Basically i was trying to go from a wedge to a driver with approx. 7 discs. In ball golf, there is no accounting for stability with clubs.
But, since u brought it up Kid, how would u characterize ur discs in relation to ball golf??

[dannyreeves]

I don't know how it would relate to clubs but I have 4 different catagories that my discs fit into. Shortest to longest.

Putters
Rocs and Firebird
Z-Talon
Orc and Teebird
X-Wildcat (roller)

And yes, I can throw a Teebird as far as an Orc. I just use the Orc for a slightly different line than the Teebird.

Well there u go different strokes for different people. I did not like the Orc. Apparently u get more length from ur Teebird than i do as I understand that an Orc is a max. driver disc, while I look at the Teebird as more of a medium range driver when I don't want to throw it too far.
All smiles

Just because something has been going on for a long time does not mean that there is no reason to question its existence.


Good point. Hey, it works, it adds variety, and most people seem to enjoy it. I wouldn't want to play every tournament like that, but it's a fun diversion.


I do have one question, though, what is the length of this course??



We've actually played a variety of layouts. Sometimes super-short (under 4000') and sometimes over 6000'. We've also mixed it where you play one round short, and one round long, and you can change discs between rounds.

A one-disc tourney is a good ole fashioned style tourney. Nothing wrong with it. I would hope that the one disc is "Classic" only.



Nope. But last year's winner threw only a putter (X-Challenger). Very few of the pros pick drivers. Most of the lower ams do.

[keithjohnson]

Yes, I suppose you are right. Not quite sure why you'd want to make such an event PDGA though. The idea is to play disc golf in it's generally accepted format. For me such an event would not represent playing PDGA disc golf

Is there a point to this? Are you strongly against folks having more than a certain number of discs? If so may I ask why?



WELL WELL WELL!!!
mr.pdga complaining about someone wishing to sanction a tournament that has never been sanctioned(at a b-tier no less) making lots of money for HIS pdga on top of it....
sanction fees,insurance,5 bucks for every non pdga,possibly some new members,3 bucks for every player entered....
why would i do this????
i don't know...maybe because i like that every tournament i am the td of is a pdga sanctioned event,maybe because just like what was accomplished in florida with the fabulous florida tour being an ALL pdga sanctioned series,maybe one day the cactus series in arizona will be an all pdga sanctioned series....maybe not....either way i will endeavor to have every event i run sanctioned or involved with the pdga somehow(as the 24 hour charity marathon is) because i FEEL like it......is that good enough for you mr. pdga?????



sincerely,
keith johnson
td of the 2004 monsoon madness
saturday on a ball golf course(use all the discs you wish),
sunday one disc only on the disc golf course at santa cruz river park
a pdga xb-tier sanctioned disc golf event
in fabulous tucson,az

I'd still like to hear the ruling on a collared-shirt-only tourney being X-tier. I don't see how you can get around it with the one-disc thing being forced to go x-tier.



No answer yet. Maybe Theo, Nez, Brian, and Conrad all slipped down that slope into the ocean and drowned.

[neonnoodle]

The collared shirt requirement for A and NT Events are policy issues not things that need to or should be added to our rule book. X-Tiers represent exceptions in rules and or policy.

I don’t really care what format TDs want to run or not run there events in (unless I am part of organizing them), if I think they are fun I’ll come, if not I won’t; what concerns me is the possibility that for the next rules revision we will have to spend 4 years of PDGA budget on lawyers and philosophers and end up with a 12 volume set of books that cover both the “explicit” and “implicit” issues that can arise on the course. Such as:

If it is the 3rd Monday of a leap year and the moon is rising on the water, players are required to hold their left ear with their right hand and do a fore-toe flick pointed directly away from the target, which incidentally is required to have sandalwood incense burning on it.

Policies and Rules have their purpose, if you want to change or get an exception to them then you had better have a compelling reason.

what concerns me is the possibility that for the next rules revision we will have to spend 4 years of PDGA budget on lawyers and philosophers and end up with a 12 volume set of books that cover both the “explicit” and “implicit” issues that can arise on the course... Policies and Rules have their purpose, if you want to change or get an exception to them then you had better have a compelling reason.



This is probably the funniest thing i've read here. the PDGA could probably save the time and lawyer fees by merely printing and binding the "Nick Kight revised PDGA rulebook" using your posted rules clarifications, etc.

-ted nugent

[neonnoodle]

......is that good enough for you mr. pdga?????



Sure. But I'm not sure what any of that has to do with limiting the number of discs used in a sanctioned round of golf.

[neonnoodle]

Jim,

You're not this way in person, why be this way here. Did those guys steal your lunch money or something?

Nick

[rhett]

Nick, you are an [*****].

I am not asking about NT events because they are their own little world with their own little rules and their own little commitee and their own little player handbooks.

The question is this: if I want to require collared shirts at my tournament, THAT WOULD BE ANY TIER LEVEL NICK, is it true that I have to get x-tier sancitoning? I would like confirmation of this since it is very similar to requiring x-tier sanctioning for a 1-disc challenge.

Plus it makes pretty much any special condition require x-tier status. "Hey, drain pipes are covered in the rules of play. Making them effectively OB restricts landing options and requires x-tier sanctioning."

[neonnoodle]

Nick, you are an [*****].



Thanks for the lunch money Rhett. :D

I didn't notice saying anything in conflict with your request for clarification on collared shirts for events with no policy concerning them. A retriction on dress code seems a little different than one on the number of discs you may use or carry or add during PDGA rounds.

But there is only one way to know for sure, and that is to ask the PDGA Competition Director.

[Moderator005]

This is a valid discussion!

The PDGA has stated that If you wish to sanction a one-disc or any other tournament where the rules are more restrictive to the PDGA Rules of Play, you must request an X-tier status exemption to the PDGA Competion Director.

So if there is no rain and a fire danger exists and I outlaw cigarette smoking at the course so I don't get in trouble with the fire marshal, does my C-tier get bumped to an X-tier?

How about: the local college grants me permission to put a course on campus as long as only 150 gram discs are used. Now I can never run anything but an X-tier tournament?

In the same vein as Rhett's example, if I require collared shirts at my B-tier because the local media is coming out to film the event and do interviews for TV and radio, does my tourny get bumped to an X-tier?

And in Jim's example, a one-disc tournament automatically gets bumped to X-tier.

[neonnoodle]

Local and park laws are covered within our rules, so they would likely not require X Tier status. The rest you'd do well to check with the PDGA Competition Director.

On another note, as a busy guy, we should respect his time and self-restrict our official queries to actual requests. Which in this case it looks like he addressed.

And yes, discussion is fine.

[exczar]

I think that a good rule of thumb (which means a general standard that is not all inclusive, for those of you in Rio Linda /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif ), is that if the proposed modification substantially changes the rule of play, or if the modification is such that the players need to know about it in advance, then it will probably be an X-Tier.

No smoking? That would be a local regulatory issue, so X-tier is not necessary.

150G discs? Wear collared shirts? X-tier. The players need to know about these in advance.

Chuck's marsh? IMO, it is not a substantial change, it is a "special condition", requiring no advance preparation by the player.

A one-disc event? Definitely X-tier.

Other "special conditions", which address how to deal with certain course peculiarites, would not require X tier to implement them.

The "island hole"? I am not familiar enough with it to comment much, but from what I have read, it could be considered a "special condition" as well, IMO.

Comments?

[nez]

Gents,

Any unusual condition imposed upon a PDGA sanctioned event that is contrary to or more restrictive than the PDGA Rules of Play and that could directly affect the results the competition must be cleared through the PDGA prior to sanctioning, and should be spelled out in the sanctioning agreement sent to the PDGA. Limiting the number of discs does directly affect results, and as such must be sanctioned as X-tier. Issues such as wearing collared shirts or whether smoking is banned, does not directly effect the results of the competition, and therefore does not require X-tier exemption.

Dave "Nez" Nesbitt
PDGA Competition Director

[rhett]

Issues such as wearing collared shirts or whether smoking is banned, does not directly effect the results of the competition, and therefore does not require X-tier exemption.



You ever seen a chain smoker jonesing for a smog after an hour-and-a-half? Now picture that guy/gal putting. Now tell me again that it won't affect the results of the competition. :)

Thanks for hanging out on this thread, nez. Don't let us drive you off!

[neonnoodle]

Thanks for hanging out on this thread, nez. Don't let us drive you off!



Yes, and by all means let's not try to drive him off. Communication is actually a new phenomenon for the PDGA Board of Directors after decades of silence, let's be appreciative.

[gnduke]

We are appreciative, just have years of bottled up questions and weird scenarios that we want to get out. :cool:

[exczar]

Thanks for hanging out on this thread, nez. Don't let us drive you off!



Yes, and by all means let's not try to drive him off. Communication is actually a new phenomenon for the PDGA Board of Directors after decades of silence, let's be appreciative.



Ok, I wasn't the one who peed in Nick's coffee today. Somebody else better fess up!

And I take slight offense at that statement, since I am represented in the group to which Nick is speaking...


Nez,

If I may...


True, collared shirts are not an integral part of the game, but to bring a collared shirt to an event does take advance planning on the part of the player. I am not talking about NTs, where they are mandatory, but a lower level event. You know that most players do not play events in collared shirts and do not bring one. Unless the event supplies these shirts to the competitors before the event, it should be an X-tier, and may it should be even if they do.

My argument is, if it is not a X-tier, then the TD could announce at the end of the players meeting, which could be as close as 10 minutes before tee off, "Oh yeah, one more thing. You must wear a collared shirt while playing or you will be disqualified. If you don't have one, you can buy one here for a reasonable price. Tee off in approximately 10 minutes".

Of course, I am not saying that would happen, but if this requirement is not announced beforehand, then many players will not arrive with collared shirts, and some players would not have participated at all if required to wear a collared shirt.

Please consider the criterium of "Does a 'special condition' or 'course rule' require advance planning on the part of the participants that would not normally be done if this was not part of the event?" If the answer is yes, then I would argue that an X-tier designation would be required, so that the local players who knew about the course rule would not have an advantage over someone coming in from out of town knowing only that it is a non-X-tier event.

Respectfully submitted, even if it is to a UMich grad,

[neonnoodle]

2 Things:

It must have been 100% Columbian.

You were on the board? :D

[august]

They call me Mr. Tibbs.

[Chris Hysell]

No they don't.

[neonnoodle]

Now both Rhett and Chris are copying me. Can't a brotha get a break?

The name change is a tribute to KJ (see his earlier post on this thread).

[gnduke]

"Oh yeah, one more thing. You must wear a collared shirt while playing or you will be disqualified. If you don't have one, you can buy one here for a reasonable price. Tee off in approximately 10 minutes".



What a great fund raising idea... :cool:

[neonnoodle]

You'd better sell a LOT of shirts at that event, cause no one is coming next year... :p

[exczar]

But you could still do it!

"Oh yeah, one more thing. You have to wear a skirt or you will be DQ'd."

Mark would get all of the prizes! :D

According to what I am reading, the TD could do this without fear of being sanctioned. Is that correct?

[rhett]

Now both Rhett and Chris are copying me. Can't a brotha get a break?



What are you talking about?

[neonnoodle]

"DO SOMETHING"

:mad:

[gnduke]

"Oh yeah, one more thing. You have to wear a skirt or you will be DQ'd."



But only in the third round.

And like Nick said, it would be a one time gig. You would have to make a lot of money the first time because you would not get a second. Any restrictions the PDGA put on you would be redundant.

[keithjohnson]

so i was right in sanctioning it as a xb-tier and now we can move on to the other things in the thread like the shock that nick actually at least read the first sentance of my post!!

it must have killed him....but he is still posting(maybe from the beyond) :D

thanks for the answers to a question i already had taken care of and the non answers to questions that really mattered......keith

[wheresdave]

where can I find course ratings? :confused:

[neonnoodle]

Dearest Keith,

I never said that you were wrong, or that you shouldn't do the event the way you want, I just wondered why?

I know that there are some folks out there that want to make disc limits standard, that too I wonder why about.

Thanks for the new username though...

Your Friend,
Nick Kight
aka Mr. PDGA

[rhett]

"DO SOMETHING"



I don't think so. That basic message was in my profile from the old style board for longer than I can remember.

[neonnoodle]

Did too!

[quickdisc]

Did too!


Opps...........maybe I'm on the wrong thread.
Someone told me of a Disc limit of 12-14 disc's ?
Is there a PDGA limit of disc's that can be carried per tournament round ? :confused:

[rhett]

No.

[neonnoodle]

And why should there be one?

Why not?

[keithjohnson]

Dearest Keith,

I never said that you were wrong, or that you shouldn't do the event the way you want, I just wondered why?

I know that there are some folks out there that want to make disc limits standard, that too I wonder why about.

Thanks for the new username though...

Your Friend,
Nick Kight
aka Mr. PDGA



nick ....i never said you said i was wrong and i guesss you didn't read jim's posts(both original and echo post)where he explained WHY it was a one disc event...
i just expounded on WHY I WANTED TO make the event pdga,which seemed to be your original concern along with the one disc question.....
sorry that you were confused by lack of following the thread post by post.....next time i'll qoute all relevant posts in my replies to you in case you haven't read them....

i love the new name :D

sincerely,
your reading every post before replying friend
keith

[neonnoodle]

Jim,

You are the one that needs to persuade the rest of us. Proving a negative, particularly one most folks don't know or care about, is not going to get us anywhere.

I promise not to comment on the points you make. If you covered it earlier, please feel free to copy and paste or highlight you better ideas.

Nick

I don't need to persuade anyone. I'm not, at this time, advocating disc limits as a a permanant rules. I don't think anyone has in this thread.

[rhett]

I would like to play a tourney at Oak Grove in the shorts where you have to use a Wham-O 141 only.

[keithjohnson]

rhett.....get your own thread....this one is for myself ,jim and my pal mr pdga.... :D

nick....jim posted that the one disc event is a long running(before jim and myself lived here in tucson) tucson event that i am sanctioning as an x-b tier event....all of the other back and forth stuff is just a smokescreen for you as he knows as i do that you DON'T READ all of/or any posts in a thread before you go off on your own tangent...that's why the pdga message board posters of america(tm) love you so much :D

read before replying(RBR) please....it is as important as know,follow,call(kfc)

keith

[keithjohnson]

one other thing mr.pdga
next years am worlds are here in arizona so having it as a pdga event allows players in the region to get points to be eliglible for worlds in their neck of the woods....
more food for thought
keith

[neonnoodle]

Truth is, I don’t really care what format folks want to use, different strokes for different folks. If the PDGA can be flexible enough to include events like this, great! I was commenting on Jim’s interpretation of the implicit and explicit nature of adding restrictive rules to PDGA events and whether that’s legit or not. My comments towards you Keith were more curiosity.

NOTE: Go back and click on the RE:jimg of my first post and you will see that I was responding to Jim's very first post (your event hadn't even been mentioned yet). I think you did exactly what you are accusing me of here. It wouldn’t be a first. You are trying to put me in the position of arguing against alternate/eXperimental format PDGAs, which is quite funny when you think about all of my commentary and work in support of Ratings Based Events. Again, my concern is with interpreting our rules to be more or less restrictive than they actually are, not whether or not you should run your event the way you want.

I was commenting on Jim’s interpretation of the implicit and explicit nature of adding restrictive rules to PDGA events and whether that’s legit or not.



I wouldn't mind going back to that discussion.

The rule 804.01 A states:
<font color="green">A. Rules governing special conditions that may exist on the course shall be clearly defined and disseminated to all players prior to the start of the tournament. </font>

This seems say that TDs are allowed to make up special local rules.

804.01 C states:
<font color="green">No rules may be stipulated which conflict with the PDGA Rules of Play, unless approved by the Competition Director of the PDGA. </font>

This says that there is a limit on those special rules. They can not conflict with existing PDGA rules without permission. Pretty straightforward, no?

Simple interpretation:
<font color="orange">If it doesn't conflict with existing rules, you can make your own rules.</font>

Nez said:

The limitation of the number of discs in a PDGA sanctioned event would constitute a requirement to apply for X-tier status, as by inference, the Rules allow unlimited number of discs and you pose to restrict this.



Then followed that up with :

This ruling has been confirmed with the PDGA Executive Director. If you wish to sanction a one-disc or any other tournament where the rules are more restrictive or contrary to the PDGA Rules of Play, you must request an X-tier status exemption to the PDGA Competion Director.



So it appears to me that Nez and Brian have interpreted this rule differently than I did.

Personally, I'd be interested in seeing an example of a local rule that does not conflict and is not more restrictive than the PDGA rules. I don't believe such a rule can be made*, as by inference any rule that is not listed in the PDGA rules is allowed, and disallowing something would be more restrictive.

Examples: Requiring collared shirts, banning smoking.

These are more restrictive than the existing rules, as the existing rules don't mention them, therefore by implication allow any shirts (or no shirts at all), and allow smoking (as long as it is done in a courteous manner, and is not otherwise prohibited by park rule or law).

* A rule/special condition concerning drop zones with or without penalty stokes can be made as those are specifically allowed by 801.04 B

[neonnoodle]

Consider:

If you are playing a game of chess at an officially sanctioned chess match, can you require a certain dress code? Does this have any affect on the actual play of the game?

Now what if you decided to remove all pawns throughout the competition? Do you think that this would be in conflict with the rules of organized competitive chess, even though in the rulebook it doesn’t say that you must use pawns? Does this have any affect on the actual play of the game?

I’m guessing, but I would imagine that the criteria used by Brian and Nez (and possibly the PDGA Rules Committee that wrote it) is whether a local rule has a significant enough affect to change basic nature of the game (in this specific instance). Another instance that it would cover is restricting the players that may play (invitational). The thing common between them is “restriction” beyond what is written within the rules usually falls within the area of changing the basic nature of the game.

This is different from broad organizational policy restrictions that parallel specific series of events (NT, A, B, C).

Hope that helped. I fear that to go much beyond this relatively simplistic method of delineating whether something “changes the basic nature of the game” or doesn’t would head us down a long path towards legalese mumbo jumbo. This when I think most folks can get there mind around the idea that rules that overly change the game need PDGA Competition Director approval.

I don't have a rules of chess book in front of me, but I'd bet money that it does specifically say that each player starts with 8 pawns, 2 rooks, 2 knights, 2 bishops, 1 king and 1 queen.

Try again Nick.

[rhett]

A better comparison would be speed chess versus 30/60 or 30/45, or whatever the "standard options" are in chess tourneys. (It's been a long time.)

[neonnoodle]

Now what if you decided to remove all pawns throughout the competition? Do you think that this would be in conflict with the rules of organized competitive chess, even though in the rulebook it doesn’t say that you must use pawns? Does this have any affect on the actual play of the game?



I didn't say it is a rule in chess, I offered a hypothetical example. Can you address the main idea presented? Or do we each need to hire a lawyer and present affidavits?


I’m guessing, but I would imagine that the criteria used by Brian and Nez (and possibly the PDGA Rules Committee that wrote it) is whether a local rule has a significant enough affect to change basic nature of the game (in this specific instance). Another instance that it would cover is restricting the players that may play (invitational). The thing common between them is “restriction” beyond what is written within the rules usually falls within the area of changing the basic nature of the game.

This is different from broad organizational policy restrictions that parallel specific series of events (NT, A, B, C).

[keithjohnson]

don't like the new name... :D



i'll let you and jim argue semantics....i have sponsors to gather for the event in august

keith

[neonnoodle]

I'm pretty sure you are better at that than judging intentions here on the board. Good luck! Seriously.

[keithjohnson]

I'm pretty sure you are better at that than judging intentions here on the board. Good luck! Seriously.




i can judge intentions on the board with the best of them nick,it is just funny watching some of the things go on in a thread when you know what the original thread poster(jim)
is speaking of by the disc limit,and then watching everyone scramble to interpret it in their own way....(all of them wrong of course),and then you go off in the why pdga tangent which led me to start getting on your case.....
don't know what i'm going to do with the event as the pdga WILL NOT sanction as a b-tier and i won't run it as less than that....got plenty of time to decide what to do still and the sanctioning forms are already paid for and at headquarters so everything should eventually work out....


seriously thanks for your encouragement and while were on that subject would the madc like to sponsor a tee sign for the ball golf course promoting pro worlds in your area next year???
i'll give you a worlds discount like i'm doing for flagstaff..post here or if you wish pm me if you are interested.......keith

[davei]

Local rules to allow relief in certain areas without penalty.

Just a few thoughts from a message board “green horn”

Since many posters here seem to think that disc golf and ball golf rules should go hand-in-hand. There is no rule, which indicates how many balls a golfer can have in his bag at any PGA event. I don’t see the common denominator here… 14 clubs is a reasonable rule to me, however ball golfers do not throw or use their clubs as projectiles to start and finish each hole. I have made myself a disc golf cart and can carry 46 discs very comfortable if I choose too. That many discs certainly does not give me an advantage (and it eats up room for refreshments in my cart). I could personnally care less if someone on my card had 1 or 500 discs in his bag, in his cart, or on his wife’s back if that is what “floats his boat”.

Somebody once wrote; “a sport without rules is a hobby, do it on your own time”. A group of qualified individuals wrote the rules for this sport that I enjoy immensely. If I could change one thing, it would be the rules already written in ink are enforced. Do I agree with all the rules 100% - NO, do I play by the rules, YES! If and when I play in a NT or A tier event I would wear a too-too if the rules said I must. I cannot seem to grasp this trend towards “it’s my way or the highway” when it comes to the rules of play at a PDGA sanctioned event. If you want to change the rules that much make it a local event with a “twist”.

Don’t like the 2 meter rule…. Stay out of the trees.

Can’t decide what the playing surface is…. check the hard stuff under your feet.

Want some relief from where you disc came to rest…. DON’T THROW IT WHERE AN OBSTICLE IS LOCATED!

Sometimes life and sport is that simple.

Want to have a few drinks, a few laughs and play some disc golf….give me a call!

[neonnoodle]

jimg
Disc limit

If I want to have a sanctioned tournament that places a limit on the number of discs the player may carry, does it have to be an X-tier?
There is no wording in the rules (that I can find) that says anything about the number of discs the player can carry, therefore a player can currently carry as many discs as he/she wants, can get more discs mid-round, can borrow a friend's disc, etc.
804.01 C. No rules may be stipulated which conflict with the PDGA Rules of Play, unless approved by the Competition Director of the PDGA.
Apparently I'm free to stipulate any rule I want as long as it does not "conflict with the PDGA Rules of Play", correct? Since this proposed rule (disc limit) does not conflict with any existing rules, it would not have to be approved by the Competition Director, and I would not have to get X-tier sanctioning. Anyone have a different interpretation?

Nick_Kight
Re: Disc limit [Re: jimg]
Jim,
That doesn't quite sound right. Not sure why at this point, but wouldn't it be like requiring players to play with only one shoe on?
Nick

That sounds pretty on topic to me Keith. But as you said you know more about what wasn't posted than me (anyone short of Jim for that matter, and you'd probably claim to know more than him...) :p

You need to contact John Duesler, he is the 2005 Pro Worlds TD. It sounds like something he might be interested in though. He is the PDGA PA State Coordinator so you can drop him a note in the Contact link here at PDGA.com.

Enjoy your weekend. My stomach is going to hurt on Monday. Tim Kady, Jeff "Fudd" Sweetman, Steve "Yordegy" Gordon and I are going to play ball golf tomorrow. Tim is pretty good. What the rest of us are is pretty something that I would have to delete from the board if I wrote. I've already started laughing just thinking about it... ;)

[rhett]

...don't know what i'm going to do with the event as the pdga WILL NOT sanction as a b-tier and i won't run it as less than that....



Keith, are you saying that the PDGA won't give you XB sanctioning, or that you are being pig-headed and won't accept X-tier sanctioning?

Yes I read your post and it is unclear. I hope my wording of the question allows you to infer my take on this. :)

[keithjohnson]

...don't know what i'm going to do with the event as the pdga WILL NOT sanction as a b-tier and i won't run it as less than that....



Keith, are you saying that the PDGA won't give you XB sanctioning, or that you are being pig-headed and won't accept X-tier sanctioning?

Yes I read your post and it is unclear. I hope my wording of the question allows you to infer my take on this. :)



yes and no......
i paid for and sent in for xb sanctioning on my own...with no one telling me to(but by knowing the definition of x tier events)
sanctioning agreement states no xb except for 4 things...
i offered it to be one of the 4 and was told not as xb but i could do xc or change the event...hence my response...i have to choose what to do next...

seems pretty **** clear to anyone with a reading comprehension past the second grade :D
maybe all that stuff in your earlier years messed with your reasoning brain cells :D

[keithjohnson]

nick never said you weren't on topic,just that you were confused on the topic...

nice manipulation of the timeline though :D

the actual timeline below...


by jim garnett post #183085 - 05/09/04 11:11 AM
Actually, just one disc. It's been a traditional Tucson tourney, that will be sanctioned for the first time this year.


by nick kight post #183644 - 05/10/04 11:58 AM

Jim,

That doesn't quite sound right. Not sure why at this point, but wouldn't it be like requiring players to play with only one shoe on?

Nick



by keith johnson post #183663 - 05/10/04 12:18 PM

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The limitation of the number of discs in a PDGA sanctioned event would constitute a requirement to apply for X-tier status, as by inference, the Rules allow unlimited number of discs and you pose to restrict this.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------





This ruling has been confirmed with the PDGA Executive Director. If you wish to sanction a one-disc or any other tournament where the rules are more restrictive or contrary to the PDGA Rules of Play, you must request an X-tier status exemption to the PDGA Competion Director.

Regards,


Dave "Nez" Nesbitt
PDGA Competition Director


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



already registered it as xb tier event and paid sanctioning fees...
i'm still curious on some of the legitimate questions i asked above though,such as foot fault and time limits...does x tier allow me to make exception to those rules also?


--------------------
"arizona's favorite disc golfer in 2003--
2004 is anyone's guess "

[keithjohnson]

You need to contact John Duesler, he is the 2005 Pro Worlds TD. It sounds like something he might be interested in though. He is the PDGA PA State Coordinator so you can drop him a note in the Contact link here at PDGA.com.

Enjoy your weekend. My stomach is going to hurt on Monday. Tim Kady, Jeff "Fudd" Sweetman, Steve "Yordegy" Gordon and I are going to play ball golf tomorrow. Tim is pretty good. What the rest of us are is pretty something that I would have to delete from the board if I wrote. I've already started laughing just thinking about it... ;)




thanks for the tip.....i figure since i am madc #022 and have sponsored hundreds of dollars to the madc seneca creek soiree that maybe john will do a little in return :)
i enjoyed playing at seneca with jeff and tim and steve...say hi to them when you see them again....if i ever learn a roller i might play seneca again....i love that course
keith

[rhett]

sanctioning agreement states no xb except for 4 things...
i offered it to be one of the 4 and was told not as xb but i could do xc or change the event...hence my response...i have to choose what to do next...



I still don't understand. You could save yourself a lot of typing by just stating your points up front. :)

I don't understand how you can not get XB but can XC if you meet the money requirements of B.

Rhett, I'll translate since I can speak KJ pretty well.

Keith is willing to make it an XB tier. The PDGA is not. In the X section of the sanctioning agreement, it now says "No sanctioning under D tier. Formats at the B tier level and above are limited to Doubles, Team Events, and Match Play."

If you want to change the rules that much make it a local event with a “twist”.



Uhh, that's what we're doing.

[keithjohnson]

sanctioning agreement states no xb except for 4 things...
i offered it to be one of the 4 and was told not as xb but i could do xc or change the event...hence my response...i have to choose what to do next...



I still don't understand. You could save yourself a lot of typing by just stating your points up front. :)

I don't understand how you can not get XB but can XC if you meet the money requirements of B.




read the pdga sanctioning agreement mr. socal td of the year :D

i spoke with 7 of the 10 pre paid members(including 3 of the 5 board members and i will ask for a special board meeting to get "official" approval of the change so i can proceed....keep tuned rhett.....by san diego it should all be worked out so i can promote it there for the san diegans to travel :D

[rhett]

read the pdga sanctioning agreement mr. socal td of the year :D



I'm pretty sure that wouldn't be the result if you took an actual vote, but fortunately I don't care. :)

I guess that part of the SA got past me. Too bad, as a "Classic" A-tier would probably attract some attention and be fun.

[keithjohnson]

read the pdga sanctioning agreement mr. socal td of the year :D



I'm pretty sure that wouldn't be the result if you took an actual vote, but fortunately I don't care. :)

I guess that part of the SA got past me. Too bad, as a "Classic" A-tier would probably attract some attention and be fun.



make it a match play,doubles,team "classic" plastic a-tier that's ratings based and they would have a hard time turning you down :D

that should make you socal td of the year for sure :D

i'd play in it and guarantee that i would cash as if anyone to this day STILL throws like he's playing with beach discs,it's me....been throwing beach plastic for 33 years and golf discs only for 7 :D

make it a match play,doubles,team "classic" plastic a-tier that's ratings based and they would have a hard time turning you down



I don't think it would work. "limited to match play, doubles and ratings", seems to mean classic plastic can't be a stipulation in a B-tier or above.