Make Everyone Happy

We have a small club in Southern Oklahoma and have access to a really nice area in a LARGE park for a second course in town--The first course is wide open and VERY easy--But on the new one we are trying to make everyone happy withn the design--a few of our members have been arranging the holes--trying to make par a good score instead of 7-10 under par--Thought we had a good setup--but we really ANGERED some of our local loyal players who refuse to play it again--changed most likely will be made :confused: to accomadate them--but will make the others who want a really tough course unhappy--anyone else have problems like this---does anything work--i.e. Easy and Hard Tee-pads--Independant course designers???

[oklaoutlaw]

Many courses have 2 or 3 sets of tees. Make your short tees friendly for Beginners, Juniors and Women, the middle tees some what harder and then from your long tees make it so even will be a good round. This setup gives those who want an easy course a short, fun place as well as those who want a harder course.

You can't please everyone.

Multiple tees is the answer, but make sure you design from the long tees first. If you design it short first, then try to cram the long tees in as an afterthought you'll create problems, especially when it comes to tournament play.

I've observed that it's hard to change the mentality of the locals. If 90% of the players think that your short, wide open course is the norm, it'll take the word of God, and an act of congress to get them to accept anything else.

[jzumwalt]

What you said in your last sentence "easy and hard tee pads". I think that is the only way to please everone if you can do it. The advanced and pro players will want the challenge of a hard course while beginners and recreational players will want to play the same course but not be brutalized by it. Two sets of tees will solve the problem.

We were going to try that - We will be having a meeting with our Parks Planning board on getting a Permanent setup that hopefully will make everyone happy :) :)

it'll take the word of God, and an act of congress to get them to accept anything else.



And even that may not be enough, esp. if they had a hand in coming up with the current course layout 20 years ago, and think it came directly from God.

[Jake L]

Build the course as hard as you want it, with new technology in disc designs, we WILL be able to throw further in the future. If players refuse to play the course, how does that hurt anyone but them? When tourny time comes around who'll shoot better? I play the back pads at our course, to try to get better! When they play your new hard course and shoot well, they will love it. It's just new and probably very tight. Over time it will get better.

Can you be a little more specific on the length of the holes u r talking about???? I generally like to play courses that are a little harder just because I have a decent midrange game and rarely make bogeys.
However, I find that most courses in my area (SoCal) only have a few holes that are unbirdieable.
I am assuming that is what you are talking about is that the holes are unbirdieable, correct???

[gnduke]

The design should not be any harder from the long or short tees, just designed for different drive lengths.

If it is a reasonable 3 from the longs for an advanced player, it should be a reasonable 3 from the shorts for a Rec player.

If it looks like a 4 for the adv from the longs, a 4 is not unreasonable for the recs from the shorts.

What I mean is you should try to emulate the same type of challenges from the short and long tees for each hole. If you have to hold a hyzer flat and low for 350' from the longs, a low flat hyzer line should be looked for in the shorts, only about 250' or 200' instead.

The other apporach is to make the shorts a completely different course, just shorter.

[magilla]

Can you be a little more specific on the length of the holes u r talking about???? I generally like to play courses that are a little harder just because I have a decent midrange game and rarely make bogeys.
However, I find that most courses in my area (SoCal) only have a few holes that are unbirdieable.
I am assuming that is what you are talking about is that the holes are unbirdieable, correct???



First problem....SoCal.....Just about EVERY course there was designed to be played with LIDS...these things we enjoy hucking around just didnt exist..... :eek:

Not super long long holes--we had some that were about 270 rather easy to birdie with a simple hyzer--some of us moved to tee back to make the hole around 450 and 350--trying to make par a good score instead of a birdie-------the response was we were taking the fun out of the course--also some short tight holes were made just a little tougher not much-only the holes were moved about 15 feet from original position :confused: double scores changed from 5-7 under par to even

[exczar]

Can you be a little more specific on the length of the holes u r talking about???? I generally like to play courses that are a little harder just because I have a decent midrange game and rarely make bogeys.
However, I find that most courses in my area (SoCal) only have a few holes that are unbirdieable.
I am assuming that is what you are talking about is that the holes are unbirdieable, correct???



First problem....SoCal.....Just about EVERY course there was designed to be played with LIDS...these things we enjoy hucking around just didnt exist..... :eek:



That makes sense! NorCal IS the "Land of Ed". But not exactly "lids" though, although a 40 Mold Midnight Flyer sure does feel nowadays like a lid used to feel back then, big and light. Why should Ed have designed a course that not worth playing with a Midnight Flyer (or a Night Flyer if the course is REALLY old)?

Magilla,
this would not have anything to do with the fact that u have a little trouble breaking into the difficult top 40 in Socal tournaments would it?? :)
Yep, i remember the first time i played Oak Grove and La Mirada. :eek:

[bruce_brakel]

Build the course as hard as you want it



Build a course so hard that the wussies will go play the old wussie course [after they read the Star thread (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=OtherPDGATopics&Number=153 810&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=4) and give me one star!] and the players who want to be challenged can shoot the new challenging course. Build holes that are intentionally designed to be par 4s and par 5s. Build a hole where it is 650 feet to the corner and then another 250 feet to the pin. Break out of the Par 2, every beginner must be able to shoot under par after two weeks of play, lameax mode of thinking and build a serious championship course. Players who love the game will thank you. Don't worry about what the idiots think.

Build a course so hard that the wussies will go play the old wussie course [after they read the Star thread (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=OtherPDGATopics&Number=153810&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=4) and give me one star!] and the players who want to be challenged can shoot the new challenging course. Build holes that are intentionally designed to be par 4s and par 5s. Build a hole where it is 650 feet to the corner and then another 250 feet to the pin. Break out of the Par 2, every beginner must be able to shoot under par after two weeks of play, lame[*****] mode of thinking and build a serious championship course. Players who love the game will thank you. Don't worry about what the idiots think.



Hey Bruce,stop trying to be diplomatic and tell us what you REALLY think. :D

[bruce_brakel]

Hey Bruce,stop trying to be diplomatic and tell us what you REALLY think. :D

O.k., for that I'm giving you 5 stars!

[mdgnome]

When i was introduced to this highly addictive sport,i was 5 minutes away from Seneca creek state park and 30 minutes from Calvert park!
Calvert is alot shorter and technical,where Seneca has elevation,distance,and technical shots! I absolutely hated Seneca,and would suffer in rush hour traffic to avoid Seneca!
Well the novelty of a short course wore thin after awhile,Seneca(the best course in MD. IMO)has become my home course!
Basically,what i am saying is that at some point the easy course has to get old,so don't make the mistake of having two easy courses when you can have the best of both worlds!

If the others don't want to play the harder of the two that just means less traffic for those who do! :D

IMNSHO

[Moderator005]

Build a serious championship course. Players who love the game will thank you. Don't worry about what the idiots think.

[rob]

Build a serious championship course. Players who love the game will thank you. Don't worry about what the idiots think.


Stan McDaniel, thank you!

[gang4010]

By all means try and design to meet the challenges for both types of players. But don't fall into the trap of expecting to please everyone - while a noble endeavor - it is seldom obtainable.

Multiple tee pads are great - but a whole lot more work than multiple PIN PLACEMENTS. When designing - remenber to strive for SEPARATION between pins and next tees - this will afford you the opportunity to insert both additional tees and pin placements in the future - as sometimes its just plain too much work to do all of them at once. It will also help to avoid the scenario mentioned above of cramming these features into too tight an area - so separation is key. Don't hesitate to make someone walk 100-150 feet from the pin to the next tee. Not only will this allow for more variation on the course - but will also provide for better tournament conditions, providing for reduction of both visual and noise distractions for people putting and teeing off.

Bottom line - when there's 18 more baskets in town - the naysayers will flock to play - and probably develop the skills they need to make it just as much "fun" as the local pitch and putt. My $.02

Build a serious championship course. Players who love the game will thank you. Don't worry about what the idiots think.


Stan McDaniel, thank you!



...unless the idiots have the ear of the Park's dept.. We just redesigned our aging 18-hole pitch and putt to make it more challenging. The short tees are still very short on average, though a couple of holes have gone longer than anything before. One very vocal idiot has made all sorts of ridiculous threats in an effort to get the course put back to the way it was. Fortunaley, our contact with the parks department is willing to work together to compromise, so our solution will be to put in a set of "sissy" tees even easier than the ridiclously simple current short layout (I shot the course record -15 the first time I played it. That matched my personal best on the old course which had yielded at least two -18's (Jeff Homburg)).

Realistically it is sbout 3 strokes harder than it was previously, I just had a very good round the first time I played it.

Wy wife, who is a begginer player, and 4 months pregnant shot about 18 over today, and that's counting the 400' holes as par-3s. We're trying to educate the park's department that these are par-4s or par-5s for recreational players. That doesn't match her personal best on the old layout, but it's close to her average.

[sandalbagger]

I know the problem all too well. At Knob Hill all of our pins are at c right now and people keep asking when we are going to move them back to the shorter position "its too hard they say" I tell them to play the recreational tees!!! As for our new course we are designing, we are designing every hole with the longest possible layout possible. Shorter tees will be put in also. but it's better to design it with the longest possible option, you can always play shorter tees.

[ck34]

As for our new course we are designing, we are designing every hole with the longest possible layout possible. Shorter tees will be put in also. but it's better to design it with the longest possible option, you can always play shorter tees.



While that may be true from a property usage standpoint, it's not true from a day-to-day play standpoint. Short tees should be there also but that's still not the solution for day-to-day play. Rarely should one of our newer courses that can be set for over say 9000' feet actually be set at maximum pins except for tournaments, and even then that may not be the best set of holes for spreading scores unless those pins have been determined from actual scores to be the best settings for a particular skill level.

Patapsco is one of the best and a course that can be set for over 9000'. However, they (I believe appropriately) have a standard rotation of baskets where six are in the A positions, six in the B positions and six in the C positions. These are rotated regularly so everyone has the chance to see the toughest positions but rarely all at once.

At Augusta, the courses should be capable of being set for over 8000' but I suspect that no more than one will be set at max length for daily play.

[magilla]

Build a serious championship course. Players who love the game will thank you. Don't worry about what the idiots think.



We have done that...and continue to upgrade all the time...

Stafford Lake County Park in Novato, Ca...

Main design was done by Shawn Sinclair with the help of Jim Tobish, Fontaine Segerquist and myself primarily...

The "Original" course is one of the hardest layouts that we have (We have since added a "Few" longer Pins :D), but it was also designed with "Short" tees on nearly every hole. These were primarily located by Fontaine, who is the "Polor Opposite" from the other 3. First she is a Woman....typically this puts her at a AM or Rec level of play so her tee options work well for casual play....also the fact that she is left handed, a new look at each hole is provided, somewhat.... Quite a few Short tees are actually located in the "Best place to Spot from" on some of the longer "Blind" holes.

Still with 55 pin locations for the 18 holes and a layouts anywhere from 4900 to over 8000 a sure challenge is assured from ANY TEE OR PIN :D

The things that would "make people happier"....

1> Concrete Tees - "Never Happen" from Parks Director

2> The ability to just make about 80 acres of tall grass just DISAPPEAR overnight :D

[magilla]

Magilla,
this would not have anything to do with the fact that u have a little trouble breaking into the difficult top 40 in Socal tournaments would it?? :)
Yep, i remember the first time i played Oak Grove and La Mirada. :eek:



Ya wouldnt know what your talking about do you "Stub"...

I got my 1st aces at both those courses while you were still begging your momma to change your diapers..... :p

The fact that I havent played so well in the past few years is purly due to "Lack of Practice" and certain Back Problems....sad thing about my opening rpound at the GSC last year is that I was actually inside the circle for birdie on nearly every hole and STILL SHOT OVER PAR :mad:

Yes at times "I S*U*C*K" but thats the way it is...I accept it...As the old saying goes..."those who cant...PROMOTE"

By the way I actually tied fror 1st this past weekend, but lost in a "Playoff" to Mr Belchik....still I did beat our "Reigning" State Open champ by 6 strokes /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

BUT any time you feel like a "REAL CHALLENGE"..just come on up to Stafford and some of our AMS will show you the way to "Bogeyville"... If you dare.. :p