and the cheaters go on.... !!!!

misses green behind the ears just started to figure out that throwing a disk is FUN IMMENSELY!!!
I attended my second turnament after having a wonderful expirience on my fist one, the victoria charity tour.

so naturally i could not wait to do the next one. and there she was, her name is Rebecca. she is a REC woman just like me. not only did she cheat, she was ovious about it and when i finally but still calm and freindly asked her why she picked up her disk out of OB and walked it about 10 feet closer to the basket anouncing that she only took 3 strokes to finish, she almost tore my head off. the others said, let it go... but <font color="blue"> </font> also said that no one here would play with her again.

acctually i am rambeling, so to make it short. if any of you girls beginners meet a big loud woman named rebbeca from ingelside tx STAY AWAY FROM HER.

I READ THE OTHER POSTS ON CHEATING AND AM CONCERNED ABOUT THAT CHEATING SEAMS TO BE THE NORM.

IF YOU WANT TO BRAKE THE RULES, GO TO THE PARK AND CALL IT A HOBBY. IF YOU WANT TO PARTICIPATE IN A SPORT, GUESS WHAT THATS THE NAME FOR A HOBBY WITH RULES.

It does make me angry to see that there is NO WAY to expose the cheater and no one seems to have any leverage to enforce warnings or restrictions to keep this sport I learned to love fun,clean and equal for all.

any help on how to deal with a ovious mean cheater is appreaciated... :confused:

[seewhere]

lilo, next time you see any infractions make sure you know the rules and than apply appropriately. IE. could be a warning the first time. if not go straight to the TD after the round and report what you saw. It is than the TD's responsibility to handle it from there. Welcome to the board and disc golf.

strap on a sack and stroke the bizzle

[scoop]

strap on a sack and stroke the bizzle



I'm not even sure I know what that means...but it sounds cool enough.

Lilo...first of all, Congratulations on winning your first ever tournament (Victoria Open) as a Rec Woman.

It's not that uncommon for Rec players (regardless of gender) to be unfamiliar with every single rule. But that's not an excuse for rude behavior when someone enforces those rules. As suggested, learn the rules by heart. And then always carry a copy of the current year's rule book with you.

I know a lot of the women who play Advanced Women in South/Central Texas, and they are all exemplary examples of good sportsmanship (sportswomanship? Sportspersonship?), adamant proponents of fair play, yet fiercely competitive. Try to meet some of these ladies the next time you're on the course. Get in a few rounds with the likes of Kat Bender, Danielle Vargas, DeAtra Edwards, or Patty Justice — and you’ll quickly discover that the “Rebecca”s are very much the exception.

[Jake L]

Be sure to carry your Rulebook, and don't be afraid to use it. If someone tries to "tear your head off", try to be the bigger person, (which it sounds like you did) and report it to the TD when the time is right.

[Nelle 18131]

Lilo,
I remember you from Victoria and I am glad to see you are still playing. Dont let this experience tarnish your thoughts on disc golfers. Disc golfers are great people, sometimes you get a sour one. Cheaters are everywhere but never, ever let someone elses attitude or actions effect your game. Just notify the TD and play on GIRL!!! I am so glad you are continuing to play. I cant wait to see you playing again. And Rooster thanks for the nice things you said about me and my friends in advanced.

[girlie]

Cheating is a huge problem in the Adv. Women's division as well. It is sad to say it, but true. I have come to the conclusion that I must not only keep my own score in my head, but also the scores of all those who I play with in a round.

When an improper score is called out at the end of a hole - you have every right to object and say, "let's review that hole, I believe you actually got a 6, not a 4. Your tee shot went here, then you threw to here, etc."

I have also found that women do not want to be caught or corrected and will violently object to rules being called on them. This can be a distraction to you and your game and you may not want to call everything and start an "I saw you" conversation. If this is the case, I suggest taking some pre-emptive measures in asking the TD to provide a spotter/PDGA official allocated only to your group who will walk with the ladies and ensure fair play. Of course this only works if you know there is a cheater on the course before the rounds start.

I want to add that I have had experience with a known cheater who was called out and saw the error of her ways. She no longer cheats and is fun to play with. I still keep her score in my head, though.

Congratulations on your WIN! Keep playing :D! There are a lot of great women golfers who DON'T CHEAT and are a joy to play with!

:cool:

[Chris Hysell]

Cheating? Lindsay, please rephrase that to "women are easily distracted by the nice scenery" or something similar. Do you really think that it was intentional? I know that we have had this conversation before but is it possible that some people just forget an extra shot here and there.

ps, see you tomorrow. ;)

[james_mccaine]

Dang, that's a tough crowd up east.

Along those lines, the PDGA might consider requiring at least two people to keep score, even if only one was turned in. This would be a big deterrent to pencil whippers, but I guess it would not do much against those with short memories.

strap on a sack and stroke the bizzle


westa you've been hanging around pimp to long but whatever you just said sound funnyer then shizzel

we had a cheeter out here in cally once he was labled as such and banished from the kingdom

[girlie]

Cheating? Lindsay, please rephrase that to "women are easily distracted by the nice scenery" or something similar.



I'm sorry Chris! Let me rephrase, "Sometimes the women are easily distracted if Chris Hysell happens to be strutting by when they are playing a round - it sometimes causes the ladies to completely forget their scores and call out much lower numbers on about 5 different holes in one round."

See you tomorrow :D!

Lilo, In my experience, it can be very difficult to call someone out on the rules, especially in the Rec division...Kudos to you for doing so. I agree with Girlie that cheating...or being distracted(!)...is a common theme in tournaments...I think a lot of that stems from people not knowing the rules, but more often I think they might be used to playing with people that are more lenient because of gender. You know what I mean...whoever they play with casually says...."oh, just take it from there, we won't count it..." things like this. I think it's unfortunate to learn that the rules don't necessarily apply to you because you aren't as good as the people you play with, or because you are a woman.
I had the fortune (misfortune?) to learn the rules as I played from a good teacher. This meant that when I began in the Rec division, I was in the same position as Lilo many, many times. Tournament play is definitely a different animal than casual play, but I think that it should be pointed out to all players that the rules do apply regardless of which division you are in. I recently played in a National Tour event and had the fortune to play with 7 other women who knew all the rules to a T, it was fabulous! It gave me hope that as I get better and get to play with better players, I won't have to be so worried about their scores, or their footing and can then concentrate on my own game! :p

Karma will prevail. This is an eye opening thread...

Now I understand why I'm getting beat by all these women!

no one is perfect but imagin someone just for the fun throws 2 disks and then conviniently choses the better shot... thats not an oops factor!!!

disks :confused:
disc :cool:

[Jake L]

Now I understand why I'm getting beat by all these women!



You sure they cheated when they beat you? :D

sorry, it is the german in me... k or c
d or t all the same as long as you know what was ment , but thanks i always liked being taught how to spell the right way.

[idahojon]

disks are for computers

discs are for golf!!!!! :D

[spartan]

we know what to do with cheaters here in Texas. We cut off all four fingers and send em down to College Station. :eek:

whoop!

[neonnoodle]

Lilo,

It's unfortunate, but you just have to resolve to not let it slide. If it looks fishy, it probably is. Say something like, "Are you allowed to do that? Because I'm pretty sure you're not." Then, "Let's check the rules to see. I'd like to know for sure."

Look up the rule, read it out loud to the group.

If the offending play still says that it is ok and the group won't back you up, make them take a provisional throw in accordance with the rules.

If they won't do that, call for an official to make a ruling.

If there are none available (which there should be at PDGAs), then be prepared to give a detailed account to the TD.

If the TD blows you off, you should send a detailed email or letter to the Competition Director &amp; Discipline Committee.

That's about all you can do, and doing so in defense of fair play and our game is about the best gift you can give to our young sport. Cheaters can not be left to have control of our competitions. They simply must be confronted.

[rhett]

If the offending play still says that it is ok and the group won't back you up, make them take a provisional throw in accordance with the rules.



I do not believe that is an option, Nick. The provisional is for the thrower to choose when the thrower doesn't agree with the group's decision. You'll have to take it up with the TD. Hopefully the other players on the card will give an accurate account.

[girlie]

So all you DG fellas out there teaching your women how to play... please do yourself, them and us all a favor and teach them the rules the right way the first time!

Awareness is the key :D

:cool:

[rhett]

No one gets away with that stuff in my wife's group. Believe me! :)

Cheating? Lindsay, please rephrase that to "women are easily distracted by the nice scenery" or something similar.



I'm sorry Chris! Let me rephrase, "Sometimes the women are easily distracted if Chris Hysell happens to be strutting by when they are playing a round - it sometimes causes the ladies to completely forget their scores and call out much lower numbers on about 5 different holes in one round."



<font color="blue">Don't say it!!! Don't say it!!!</font>

<font color="purple"> Must ... resist ... the ... setup ... line!!! ... Must ... resist ... the ... setup ... line!!! ... Must ... resist ... the ... setup ... line!!! ... Must ... resist!!! ... Must ... resist!!!!</font> <font color="red">AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!</font>

:D

[neonnoodle]

Lindsay,

I have heard the same thing repeatedly now concerning the Advanced Womens Division too from 3 sources now. Mostly around pencil whipping.

I don't know if this will help or not, but this is what I do when I suspect that someone has given an incorrect score for a hole:

1) Say, "I don't think that's right. Let's go through it together and see if it is or isn't?"
2) Go through it in as detailed a manner as you can, asking questions and getting input from everyone in the group. "So you teed off and hit that tree on the left, right?" And so on.
3) Omitting a throw, even on a snowman, usually sticks out like a sore thumb. If it doesn't then, give the benefit of the doubt.
4) If they insist on a clearly incorrect score, and the group is afraid to confront, but you are certain, you should either call for an official immediately or if not give the TD a detailed explanation and let them make a ruling.
5) If the TD blows you off, then as above contact the PDGA and give a fully detailed description and let them make a ruling (holding the not only the offending player responsible for playing our game fairly but also the TD responsible for insuring that it is).

Levels of Defense for our Rules of Play:
1) Your knowledge, adherence and willingness to educate.
2) Your group mates and their knowledge, adherence and willingness to educate.
3) Your events PDGA Officials and his/her knowledge, adherence and willingness to educate.
4) Your TD and his/her knowledge, adherence and willingness to educate.
5) Your PDGA Commissioner/Discipline Committee and their knowledge, adherence and willingness to educate.

But it all starts with “YOU”. There’s just no way around it.

It doesn’t hurt to know who will have your back too. You can definitely count on me if you follow the above advice or close to it. I think that you would be pleasantly surprised as to just how many folks would be willing to support you. There is no place in disc golf for pencil whipping; short of rude behavior nothing does more direct injury to our sport than it does.

Hey Jake...that's my story, and I'm stickin' to it! ;)

[girlie]

I'm very impressed with your self control, fore!

I was actually hoping that someone would take that bait ;)...

:cool:

[Jake L]

Can I borrow it sometime? :D

thanks.... now all that input that helps. thank you all for your input and your patience with us beginners. it is nice to find such a wonderfull community... now there is even more to love about this sport. :D

and i will defend the rules if it ever comes down to it again.. and yes, being new is no excuse to not know the rules, but honestly it will take me a little while to get them all...

the birdy's the pars OB's and when to pick up what and when... but fear not i will learn them and defend them. :cool:<font color="blue"> </font>

[Nelle 18131]

I am really glad to see your positive approach to this. There are a lot of wonderful women that would love to teach you the rules of the game. Thanks for continuing to play Lilo and I hope to see you on the course soon.

[gnduke]

Just hook up with some adv Masters. A few of them enjoy arguing over the fine points of the rules almost as much as playing. :cool:

Myself included of course

how come that everyone seems to know that i won the victoria one... where is it listed? i would love to see my name (sorry cant help it, i am a little proud)...

i guess it was so incredible because i did not expect it...

i also just became a pdga member... i like that the money goes to sponsoring more turnaments and taking care of the baskets... thanks pdga

[Jake L]

FYI: there is a link on the rules page, it's called become an offical. Only costs ten bucks, then your opponets would be shaking in their pantaloons trying to cheat around you. :D

[nix]

Victoria Open results (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=4413#Recreational%2 0Women) Click that link...

that is an awsome idea... i will look into that. at least i would not feel so helpless and stupid. thanks a lot :o

[Jake L]

I'm also trying to become an offical, talked to Carlton about it last night. good luck!! :D

time to go home.. and i would love to stay here with you all but my computer at home is fried.... so talk to you all after the weekend.

THANKS AGAIN - ALL OFF YOU

and hopefully i meet youn all... soon... :D

[bruce_brakel]

In response and addition to what Nick said, another thing that is helpful, especially on a long hole where there are going to big scores, is to at some point say something like, "O.k., so everyone has taken three throws now except Pat has taken four, right?" And get confirmation from everyone. Then when you are done with the hole you don't have to remember from the tee but just from that point where everyone had whatever it was you said. When walking with the junior girls I do this a lot, but I also do this with other men on par fives at Byron and on the occasional Monster hole.

Kelsey played a tournament with a group of advanced women in a disc golfing micro community that does not travel much and is not strongly PDGA. To them she was just some little girl they'd never seen before. In the morning the women were spread out in different groups and Kelsey wound up second in a field of eight. Several of the women were convinced that Kelsey must have been shaving strokes and I got wind of this at lunch. I told Kelsey that she was going to need to take it up a notch and shoot a better round in the afternoon. She did. Afterwards the woman who was most concerned about the little cheating blond haired kid said to me, "Chelsea is pretty good. You should take her to tournaments." And I said, "We were thinking of playing a tournament in Peoria next month. Now we'll go for sure."

I'm very impressed with your self control, fore!

I was actually hoping that someone would take that bait ;)...

:cool:



Well, I haven't posted a punchline, but I've certainly THOUGHT it. :D

FYI: there is a link on the rules page, it's called become an offical. Only costs ten bucks, then your opponets would be shaking in their pantaloons trying to cheat around you. :D



The presence of an official can serve as a deterrent to cheating, but don't forget that officials who are competing in an event may not make rulings in the division in they're competing in (Rule 804.09.D).

[terrycalhoun]

Before I even start in on this, I have to say that if you're not playing by the rules, then you are not really playing disc golf. So why bother?

That said, I think a lot of people do not really understand the rules, especially in the divisions which are by nature less competitive. It might not be a bad idea in lower tier events for a TD to schedule a brief "rules summary" meeting for newer players, maybe 15 minutes before the players meeting. Lots of local folks who like to hear themselves talk (think me, Brakel, Stroh, Kight, Ellis) would be glad to volunteer to lead it.

And you also have to figure in mistakes of an unintentional nature. Certainly, in the lower women's divisions, where you can find scores of 100+ for 18 holes, just keeping track of whether you got a 5 or a 9 on a long hole can be difficult, which is a good argument for having and using shorter tee pads or pin placements without feeling bad about it.

[neonnoodle]

Quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
FYI: there is a link on the rules page, it's called become an offical. Only costs ten bucks, then your opponets would be shaking in their pantaloons trying to cheat around you.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The presence of an official can serve as a deterrent to cheating, but don't forget that officials who are competing in an event may not make rulings in the division in they're competing in (Rule 804.09.D).






True, but they can still be of great assistance in providing accurate interpretations for the group to consider, and most folks want to do the right thing.

Note for TDs: Something I have employed 2 or 3 times for more major rulings is to, after the round, ask all PDGA Officials to gather for a moment together away from everyone else. Tell them that you have a bigger ruling issue and would like all of their input on it. Bring the concerned parties, one at a time, and interview them to get the story straight. Then ask for a ruling from your gathered officials. To my knowledge they have come to the right ruling every time; AND it takes the pressure off of you, the TD, and everyone at the event knows that not only do you take the rules seriously, but that you did everything in your power (short of a court date) to come up with the correct and fair ruling. This is a best practice I thought worth sharing.

And Terry, I am not the kind of guy that likes to hear my own voice. I'm quite shy in person...

The presence of an official can serve as a deterrent to cheating, but don't forget that officials who are competing in an event may not make rulings in the division in they're competing in (Rule 804.09.D).

[girlie]

TDs and Players

Please keep in mind that although small, some of the lower women's divisions can be quite competitive. Granted the competition is on a different level from that of say the Pro Men's division, but competitive none-the-less.

Perhaps as a larger sampling of women would prove to be less competitive then men in general, but I believe the type of women who become involved in Tournament Play ARE competitive by nature.

I think a "rules brief" could be a great addition to some tournaments, but the fact remains that the most players in question have "been around for a long time" and "know what the rules are and what [they're] doing". A newbie is quite easy to spot and usually very happy to have the rules of play pointed out as appropriate.

It is the seasoned player who knows how to circumvent the rules.

And the checks and balances will continue - be aware of what goes on in your group and have a good time out there.

:cool:

most players in question have "been around for a long time" and "know what the rules are and what [they're] doing". A newbie is quite easy to spot and usually very happy to have the rules of play pointed out as appropriate.

It is the seasoned player who knows how to circumvent the rules.



I agree!

I witnessed an incident at the Dogwood Crosstown this past weekend, in which a seasoned intermediate player playing on a card with four relative tournament newcomers threw a disc in the pond that didn't come close to making it across. Rather than proceeding to the drop zone to make his next throw, he started walking around the pond toward the basket. When the others in his group told him he needed to throw from the drop zone, he said, "No, I'm going to play it from the other side." Despite being told repeatedly that he needed to go back and throw from the drop zone, he placed a marker on the basket side of the pond and took a stance like he was preparing to putt. Only when he was threatened with disqualification (cheating) did he go back to the drop zone. Had to wonder what else he tried to pull over them during the round.

(Fortunately, he picked the wrong weekend to try to cheat, because not only is Karma a b!tch, she must have had PMS, because his throw from the drop zone ended up stuck in a tree on the right corner of the pond about 15' above the playing surface (stroke), maybe 18" in bounds (VERY muddy stance, and if he took his 1m relief, he would have been putting from inside a tangle of vines!). Not only did he miss the putt, his disc rolled a good 30' away, and he missed the come-backer too. Then, to top it off, while he was standing under his suspended disc trying to figure out how to get it down, one of the players on his card picked up a muddy stick and threw it at the disc, spattering him with mud in the process. :D:D:D:D)

[prairie_dawg]

...I witnessed an incident at the Dogwood Crosstown this past weekend, in which a seasoned intermediate player playing on a card with four relative tournament newcomers threw a disc in the pond that didn't come close to making it across. Rather than proceeding to the drop zone to make his next throw, he started walking around the pond toward the basket. When the others in his group told him he needed to throw from the drop zone, he said, "No, I'm going to play it from the other side." Despite being told repeatedly that he needed to go back and throw from the drop zone, he placed a marker on the basket side of the pond and took a stance like he was preparing to putt. Only when he was threatened with disqualification (cheating) did he go back to the drop zone. Had to wonder what else he tried to pull over them during the round.

(Fortunately, he picked the wrong weekend to try to cheat, because not only is Karma a b!tch, she must have had PMS, because his throw from the drop zone ended up stuck in a tree on the right corner of the pond about 15' above the playing surface (stroke), maybe 18" in bounds (VERY muddy stance, and if he took his 1m relief, he would have been putting from inside a tangle of vines!). Not only did he miss the putt, his disc rolled a good 30' away, and he missed the come-backer too. Then, to top it off, while he was standing under his suspended disc trying to figure out how to get it down, one of the players on his card picked up a muddy stick and threw it at the disc, spattering him with mud in the process. :D:D:D:D)



One of the better Karma stories I've heard in a while. :DLMAO

Maybe that should be a thread, Tournament Karma Stories? :cool: Like the person that... Enough for now, its too gorgeous out, got catch some DG before this TX weather changes. :D

[Plankeye]

Felix, I was standing at the tee at Dogwood to see that happen.

The same player was complaining that the women were playing too slowly at Zebulon. He was playing slower than the women were and we(I was so fortunate to play in this group) only caught up to them once and that was on hole 3.

He only tried to pull something on us once. On hole 8 he claimed to have a 4. I thought it was a 5, but I didn't want to argue there since there was a group already on the tee. So on the next hole, I talked to a couple of the other group memebers and asked them if they remembered how he shot on hole 8 and they agreed with me. We asked him about it and changed his reported score to the correct one.

This same weekend in the first round, I did something dumb too. We had the kids on our card, and I wouldn't rotate the card to them. One other player and myself had to "ask" about their scores on several times. A few times we had to go back and mentally count their scores. I didn't want to give the kids the card and have them misreport their scores. Thankfully when I was asked about it, one of the other players in the group took the card from me so I wouldn't be called for a courtesy violation.

I was standing at the tee at Dogwood to see that happen.

The same player was complaining that the women were playing too slowly at Zebulon. He was playing slower than the women were



Yup. If I remember correctly, there were two groups waiting on the pad by the time he finally putted out and moved on to the next hole. Could easily have picked up another 3-4 strokes on that hole alone for excessive time. Maybe y'all should to start stroking him?

Rightly or wrongly, I'm somewhat inclined to cut the two kids a little slack 'cuz from what I've observe of them at past tournaments, they're so busy trash talking one another that I'm not sure they paying enough attention to remember how many throws they've made. (Of course, I only see them on one or two holes, so that judgment is based on very limited exposure to them.) I suspect they'd be playing rec or junior rather than M2 if those divisions were offered. Granted, at some point they're going to need to smarten up, but if "Most fun wins," they'd win most tournaments going away. (Of course, I imagine that, at times, those of you who have to play with them would LIKE them to go away. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif) But I'm not sure I would trust them with the card, either.

[lauranovice]

I agree that many times when a new player tries to count over 5 strokes on a hole, especially if there are 2 or 3 of them on that card throwing that many, it is difficult to remember that long how many you counted. When I was a newer player, when the 9's were more common than the 2's. (5's are still more common than 2's but easier to count.) I bought a "clicker". They are found in the ball golf section of most athletic stores. The player simply clicks to the next number with each stroke. Put the disc in the bag, pick up the clicker and click. Many of the other ladies on the card would notice, ask about it, and several ended up with a clicker by the next tournament. There is always a way to make sure you follow the rules, if you really care to.

[neonnoodle]

There is always a way to make sure you follow the rules, if you really care to.



Absolutely! Knowing the rules is as much a part of the game as having a disc to throw.

[bruce_brakel]

That said, I think a lot of people do not really understand the rules, especially in the divisions which are by nature less competitive. It might not be a bad idea in lower tier events for a TD to schedule a brief "rules summary" meeting for newer players, maybe 15 minutes before the players meeting. Lots of local folks who like to hear themselves talk (think me, Brakel, Stroh, Kight, Ellis) would be glad to volunteer to lead it.



Actually I am very shy and I usually run from public speaking opportunities. Seriously, at the first sanctioned tournament I ran, I would have died if I had not had Mark Ellis for announcements. Being a TD has been good for me in this area I suppose.

This is a good idea. I've seen it done at other tournaments. If nominated I will serve, except at the No Foolin' where I'm serving as the MDGO season points tax collector.

[neonnoodle]

Imagine that; Bruce and Nick shy... I guess that leaves Rhett, Terry and Mark to be the front men.

We got your back, go get 'em! /msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

[bruce_brakel]

Imagine that; Bruce and Nick shy...



Yes, we're not actually loudmouth, arrogant fatheads, but we play them on the internet.

[neonnoodle]

Speak for yourself shy boy... :D

[rhett]

I like to try to do a little "rule of the day" thing about how to mark your lie or how to mark OB. But not always. It's easy to lose the crowd at the player's meeting when you do this, as the players that know the rules turn away and start talking and the players who need it most are the ones who think they know the rules so they don't pay attention either.

If I try to wing-it I usually get bogged down with a little question that turns into a message-board-esque technical discussion, which just puts everybody to sleep. The best way would be to put together a little bit and rehearse it. It's not like you have anything else to do while you get ready to TD a tourney. :D

[neonnoodle]

If I'm playing with new players, I'll take a moment in the first couple of holes to show them how to mark their lie and take a proper stance. Not being shy about the rules, I'll remind even lead groups about the proper way to use the speed of rudeness... I mean play rule. By far the folks that think they know the rules but don't are the ones that get all bent out of shape. But I'm like "Hey! Don't get angry at me, you should be thanking me for letting you know how the rule really works."

If everyone just worked a little at knowing, playing by and calling the rules we would take a huge jump forward. No one need be a tyrant, just make it part of your game, just like marking your disc, or lining up your tee shot. It really doesn't have to be the big deal it is today.

that is a cool... if they are not too costly i wuld like to get a couple of them and give them out to people that have trouble counting thier strokes... good one ... i like it!!!

on an updated note: i printed all the rules out and made my own little booklet that i will read and carry with me... just in case.

thanks all you guys out there. :D

[lauranovice]

They're about $5 at Academy if I recall correctly.

[morgan]

I think it's okay to cheat so long as you don't cheat more than everybody else. That would be cheating.

Hey Nick,

@ a sanctioned tourney, an "advanced" player knowingly picked up my missed put (a couple feet from the pin) and gave it to me....

Would that be an automatic 2 stroke penalty for him? And an additional stroke for me if I don't putt out?

[neonnoodle]

What does the rule book say Rob?

[hawkgammon]

My group saw a guy holding branches out of his way to putt on the 17th hole at the DE Crosstown first round this past weekend. We were up on the tee. He was working so hard it looked like he and the tree were engaged in some kind of fight. :D

[Jake L]

I hope the tree won! :D

Nick,

would you have stroked the guy for picking up my missed putt?

I don't think so..... /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Do you always apply the rules?

[gang4010]

Did you tell the guy thanks but please don't do that again?

Did you help him learn to play by the rules?

Didn't think so.

No, I didn't...I admit it. I, probably wrongfully, believe that a 940 player (who played in three times as many tourneys as I have) should know the rules. And I believe that he just made a mistake, since it didn't occur again...well, didn't want to sound like a wiseass either....probably is just a habit from playing casual rounds to pick up gimmies. No need for me to make a stink, and to make him look stupid.

So, I guess you wouldn't stroke another player in your group for doing this.....or does it depend? Do ams get a warning, and your fellow pros don't? Are you breaking the rules when you don't enforce them? Or do you generally give a warning.....????

I let it slide, especially since he didn't play in my division (thanks to first round mixing....). Why should I care if he get's stroked? Let someone in his division catch him and make a stink. It seems harsh and unfair to tell someone he gets two strokes for picking up my missed putt (very close missed putt).

I don't have a problem with the rule...I wouldn't dream of touching somebody else's plastic. I am just curious what you would do?

I aggree that "a beginner" or "rec" player should get a warning, or I guess a "friendly reminder"...but a player with a mid-900 rating....???? Do you think it was not knowing the rules? Unlikely IMO.

[Greg_R]

why she picked up her disk out of OB and walked it about 10 feet closer to the basket anouncing that she only took 3 strokes to finish

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned that this could be completely legal. Let's say the OB line was behind the basket and the alleged cheater drove OB (right over the basket). The proper lie would be 1m relief from the point it went OB (i.e. much closer to the basket than where it landed). This person would then be putting for a 3p on her card.

[hawkgammon]

I was playing down at Bluemont this Spring when I missed a putt :eek: and one of my playing partners picked up my two footer that was left. I told him he couldn't do that in a sanctioned tourney, and he replaced it, and I putted out. I figured it was a lesson learned for him.

[neonnoodle]

Hi Rob,

Did you look up the actual rule? Knowing if a rule has been broken is the first step in this process. You shouldn't call someone on something unless you are very sure they have broken a rule, and you can't be sure without knowing the rule.

The best way to enrich your knowledge of the rules is to follow them as you play. By following them you are constantly reminding yourself of the proper way to play under our rules of fair play.

Knowing and following the rules will allow you the confidence to call the rules when necessary. Knowing, following and calling our rules is the ONLY protection our game has against those who would diminish it.

Is judgment involved in making a call? Sure, it is involved in everything we do just about. But the rationale for not making the call you have given here is poor in my opinion.

Not making a call because you do not know the rules demonstrates that you are unprepared to participate in a PDGA event (or competitive disc golf for that matter). I mean do you play Monopoly not knowing, following or calling the rules?

Not making the call because the player violating the rules is a beginner is a disservice to him/her. Yes, it is tough to make the call because we seem to, as a sport, have desperation to get out, welcome and keep new players. But as one on the receiving end of calls over the years, NOTHING, and I mean nothing, makes you more aware of and more willing to study up on the rules more than being officially called on the rules.

Not making the call because the player violating the rules is in another division does direct injury to the fairness of the competition. What if other players in that players division are in groupings with players who do know, follow and call the rules? We all know that the difference between winning or cashing is usually just a stroke or two. (Groupings with different divisions should be far more rare than they are. That in itself is a violation of our PDGA Rules of Play.)

Not making the call because the player violating the rules is in the same division not only does direct injury to the fairness of the competition but it infers collusion on the part of the players looking the other way. Remember, unless your group is the entire division, there are players all over the course who are affected by your non-call.

We can always, and more often than not do, come up with excuses not to know, follow or call our PDGA Rules of Play. It is a learned culture of aversion to such sportsmanship; that to do any of KFC is to be a rules nazi and folks think (falsely) that such sportsmanship does injury to our game. Well, I propose that the REAL injury is to NOT know, follow and call our rules because it creates an overall affect of non-compliance with our rules and actually makes our events less FAIR.
I fully understand the difficulty involved, I have been dealing with it for years and years. But we need to change this culture of non-compliance with one of understood and appreciation for the sportsmanship/stewardship of preserving the honor and fairness of our game.

Carlton Howard: “Rules don’t call themselves.”
Harold Duvall: “I feel bad that you put me in this position of having to call you on this rule.”

Again we need to encourage a culture of high standards of sportsmanship, while learning for ourselves that knowing, following and calling our rules is not antagonistic to other players and our sport, but is actually helpful to other players and our sport.

Will there be times when we do not make a call? Certainly. But it will be far less often if we have a clear understanding of, practice playing by and have the correct attitude and motivation for calling our PDGA Rules of Play.

Hope this rather long explanation was helpful.

Best Regards,
Nick Kight

Nick,

still not clear on ruling. Please read and comment...
803.06 C. Any player who consciously alters the course of a thrown disc, or consciously moves or obscures another player's thrown disc at rest or a marker disc, other than by the action of a competitively thrown disc or in the process of identification, shall receive two penalty throws, without a warning, if observed by any two players or an official.

Well, he didn't play from my lie, he picked it up and gave it to me....does it need to be called....is the violater "observing" himself? Meaning I saw he did it, he knew he did it...does this count as being observed by "any two players"? In my interpretation, the violator is not an observer, so I could not stroke him anyway. The other three players in my group didn't notice it, because they were on their way to the next hole.....

:confused:

[neonnoodle]

Nick,

still not clear on ruling. Please read and comment...
803.06 C. Any player who consciously alters the course of a thrown disc, or consciously moves or obscures another player's thrown disc at rest or a marker disc, other than by the action of a competitively thrown disc or in the process of identification, shall receive two penalty throws, without a warning, if observed by any two players or an official.

Well, he didn't play from my lie, he picked it up and gave it to me....does it need to be called....is the violater "observing" himself? Meaning I saw he did it, he knew he did it...does this count as being observed by "any two players"? In my interpretation, the violator is not an observer, so I could not stroke him anyway. The other three players in my group didn't notice it, because they were on their way to the next hole.....

:confused:



Rob,

A player may call themselves on a violation of the rules. They can be both the violator and the observer. If you call him on rule 803.06, he can and should be able to confirm it, and the penalty strokes assessed.

It is not a court of law, we are sportsmen with what should be the highest standards of courtesy and honesty, we do not have to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt or convince a jury, we simply need to agree to what happened and apply the PDGA Rules of Play.


Imagine, the guy is handing you your disc and you call him on the violation; what is he going to do:

A) Deny that he picked up and was handing you your disc, while you saw him do it and he is currently holding your disc in his hand?
B) Say that he didn’t know the rule so it doesn’t count, so he will not volunteer to be the second observer?
C) Accept the situation, be truthful and honorable, accept the strokes and learn a valuable lesson, one they are not soon going to forget?

I submit to you that if they choose either of the first 2 options then they are not the type of folks we need at our events. The only lesson learned by not making the call is that it is perfectly fine not to know, follow or call our rules.

Again, use the Harold Duvall caveat: “I very sorry you put me in this position. I’d rather not have to call rules violations, but this is such a clear case of a violation that I have to call you on it. I wish you did not put me in this awkward position.”

Make sense?

Regards,
Nick Kight

Nick,

thanks for the clarification.....it's appreciated....

Rob

[gnduke]

Nick,

I never quite saw a straight answer to the question.

Would you always call a person for picking up your "gimme" putt?

Yes No

Would it matter what tier the tourney was?

Yes No

[esalazar]

what happens to the player whose disc was picked up.If another player picks his disc up and hands it to him , he never finished the hole.Also if it was not marked, what then.Does he also get stroked .
My first tournament ever , I parked a hole about 1 ft. from the pole, not knowing the rules ,I picked my disc up and slapped the chains with it .I then proceeded to walk to the next hole.There was an official watching who so kindly made me aware of the rule on this.I walked back to the basket and finished the hole,lesson learned!!!

[sandalman]

the player whose disc was picked up needs to play it from the best estimate of where it was before it was picked up.

altho it wasnt a 1' situation, in my first year of play i was on Olde Cameron #16. i drove a powder blue XL to the left side of the fairway (good spot for a leftie). the guy driving on #18 also used a powder blue XL. unfortunately for me, i walked up the fairway, came across a powder blue XL, marked it (grumbling that i was sure i had another 30 feet or so), then launched my second shot with the same disc. it went waaaaay left up into the schuul by 18's tee. hahaha... next thing we know the group on 18 looked at the OTHER blue xl they came across (about 30' up from where i marked my lie). guess what - i had thrown from the wrong freakin powder blue XL. cost me 2 strokes. the other player played from the best estimate of the 2 cards and one official who witnessed the whole fiasco. and all of us got to search for 2minutes 55seconds until somebody found the guy's disc that i threw into the schuul. big lesson learned for me on that one!