Can a TD choose who's allowed to play?

Is a Tournament Director allowed to pick whom they want to play in "their" tournament? Is there a rule that states: a paid up PDGA member must be allowed to play in a PDGA event unless an official PDGA suspension is in effect?

It seems I remember a Tourney a couple of years ago in the Northwest where Herm T. L. was not allowed to play a tournament because "it was on private land and the owner would not allow him on the property" In short, he could play but could not show up.

We had a tournament a few years back when a three local pros vandalized the course a week before the tournament. Two of the three admitted their wrong-doing and were not allowed to play. The third lied (later admitted it and was suspended) and was allowed to play against the wishes of the TD.

This pertains to an upcoming event where at least one player has been blacklisted. Acorrding to Carlton "If you feel that the person is causing that much trouble...then don't let him/her in the event. There's no rule that allows that but there's none that prevents it either." Does this seem right to you?

Not allowing someone to play in a PDGA tournament is akin to suspension. A TD should not be allowed to determine who is suspended.

btw- Herm is a great example as he really pushes peoples buttons.

[rhett]

Businesses reserve the right to refuse service to anyone. Should TDs of PDGA sanctioned events be given that same right?

This is a public event in a public venue (county park), Should a personal debate between the TD and a local player come into effect?

I understand local non-PDGA events where the TD can make his own rules. I respect this since anyone willing to put up with the grief of dealing with this thankless job deserves some leeway in dealing with troublemakers, but I think a PDGA dues playing member deserves certain rights in a PDGA event.

We have one notorious local troublemaker (Big Red Killa) that is not blacklisted from local tourneys. What about a good natured loudmouth that the TD doesn't like? What if the TD is a good natured loudmouth? What if all involved are good natutred loadmouths?

Can't we all just get along?

[gnduke]

The TD should not be allowed to curtail the rights of a dues paying member of the PDGA in a sanctioned event. He has every right to put a couple of PDGA officials with the suspect player at all times to ensure rules are followed. If necessary, the now recommended peace officer on duty can be added to the escort.

If there are enough people that feel the same way, the TD can make use of the provision in the PDGA constitution (10.3) and gather a petition against that member. Unfortunately the only punishment outlined in the constitution is to revoke the members active status or expulsion from the PDGA.

[rhett]

TDing is a thankless job. If there is someone who the TD cannot stand to have around, should a tournament be left unsanctioned by the PDGA because the TD will not put up with that person? Or should the tourney just be cancelled?

I TD tournaments. And while there are certain players I can count on to complain about something at every event, I wouldn't consider not letting them play. But there are all kinds of little BS dramas that unfold for no good reason, and I can totally see the possibility of absolutely not wanting to have to deal with some particular ******. (Hey, I can be an ****** too. But players always have the option of not playing a particular tourney of they don't like the TD.) Should the whole disc golf community in that area suffer from a lack of tournaments because somebody pisses off a TD so much that they are willing to not run tourneys to keep from dealing with that person? It's not like you make money TDing, so the real losers in that situation are the players.

Just TDing an event that runs smoothly is difficult. If there were a "Joe Hates Me" out there showing up and making things more difficult, it would be good thing to keep that person from playing.

[neonnoodle]

I've got visions of moving to SoCal and Rhett not letting me in to his events...

When a player threatens the life of the TD, his wife, and his property, and the TD believes (by calling the police and making a statement) that his life is in danger, and his wife's life is in danger, and their property is in immediate danger, then, yes, I believe the TD should be allowed to CALL the PDGA first, and tell them the story, and get a PERMISSION comment to disallow THAT kind of person from playing on their private property. If this HAD NOT been private property, perhaps said individual would have been allowed to PLAY since the property would have been PUBLIC property (such as the DeLaVeaga Disc Golf Course) and the WIFE and PETS would not have been there and would not have HAD to be propected.

But, I DO NOT THINK that any TD should just be given this kind of AUTHORITY. There has to be life-threatening instances, or that the player has been suspended or disqualified from the PDGA, or the tournament.

I know that IF my WIFE and KIDS had been THREATENED by a pdga disc golfer, I WOULD not let that person play in any tournaments I had to offer. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Oh goody, another thread I should probably avoid. :)

Last year, I TD'ed 5 PDGA events. This year I was supposed to run six, and probably will be back up to that task in '05.

With that number of events, I have a number of opportunities to meet all kinds of people. For the most part, these meetings have all been enjoyable experiences.

There are a couple, however, that I can count on to be a pain in the buttocks and likely cause problems. If these people are dues paying members of the PDGA, my personal feelings about them should carry no weight regarding their eligibility to play in any PDGA event.

There are dozens of nightmare scenarios that could arise from TD's being allowed to determine who plays and who does not in any PDGA event.

Having said that, what if a player that falls into this "undesirable" category is not a paid member? He/she wants to pay the $5 non-member fee and play.

??????

[Jake L]

I am amazed that a player would threaten the life of a TD, his family and his property. But the PDGA has got nothing to do with this, this is a matter for the local police deparment, Communicating threats, I believe the charge would be, and he would be arrested, that should stop him from being able to play in that event for the day, "hard to tee off when your in jail."

[nez]

Per PDGA policy, all active PDGA members in good standing have the equal opportunity to enter PDGA sanctioned events. If any event wishes to exclude any particular individual member in good standing, the event must not be sanctioned with the PDGA. Acting in violation of this policy may subject the TD and staff to possible disciplinary action.

If any PDGA member wishes to file a formal complaint against another PDGA member, he may do so under Article 10 Section 1 of the PDGA constitution by submitting a written petition of complaint with at least (20) active PDGA member's signatures to the PDGA Oversight Director.

A non-member has no right to play in a PDGA-sanctioned event. The PDGA provides him a temporary membership for $5 for the weekend. A TD does not have to grant that temp. membership if he chooses not to do so, although this may be frowned by the PDGA upon unless there is valid reason not to do so.

Dave "Nez" Nesbitt
PDGA Competition Director

[rhett]

hmmm......

So if I wanted to exclude Nick from playing I would have to make my tourneys non-PDGA? Dang. :)

What if I put in my sanctioning agreement that I was not going to allow Nick to play this event and why that was my wish, like a special condition? Then the PDGA could sanction the tournament or not based on that info.

What about running an "Invitational"? The SN Finals excludes m e from playing their PDGA sanctioned event even though I am a PDGA member in good standing. How does that work? Can't you just use the "invitational" tag instead of being an "open" tourney and get around this?

Let me emphasize that there is currently no one, not even Nicky, that I would exclude. But I could see why someone might want to.

[neonnoodle]

Let me emphasize that there is currently no one, not even Nicky, that I would exclude. But I could see why someone might want to.



Like markie?

This brings up a good topic though, all funnin' (or seriousness) aside.

If there is a player out there who is a real tyrant, that causes serious trouble for players and volunteers, and generally does not represent our sport or good sportsmanship well, then we really owe it to ourselves to send in these Article 10 complaints so that the PDGA has a leg to stand on when supporting TDs decisions to basically pre-DQ a troublesome player.

There is nothing wrong with protecting our sport from these types of players (and people).

Like markie?




Well, I might make a good test case to see how the system works. How many names do you need on that petition, anyway?

[neonnoodle]

20

Well, it would seem you only need about 19 more then.

I can probably steer you toward at least a half dozen more right off the top of my head.

WHERE DO I SIGN?????


:eek:

[neonnoodle]

??? "I would need"?

Don't you mean, you would need?

I'm not fixated on anyone...

[rhett]

That was not my intended message, but it is funny. :) I meant to say not even Nicky, but I could see why someone might want to bar someone else from their tourney.

What about the SN thing, and using "invitationals" to get around this? Those are special conditions that I assume must get pre-approved. If I put down that I want to bar Marka because he has more posts than me, I assume that the Competition Director will tell me no way, Marka never leaves Texas anyway, so allow him to play or else go unsanctioned because that is a lame reason. But people can be a-holes to others without breaking any PDGA rules, and if a TD has a good reason I don't see why it shouldn't be approved.

Rhett, you are talking about the 2003 New Mexico WRECK division champ!!!!

He's just bitter because I won't come see him.

I've played Fountain Hills and La Ma too. Heck, I've even played Tom Bass. That's outta Texas, isn't it? :)

[exczar]

Is the SN Finals a PDGA-approved tournament, granting points, and is also an Invitational? Or is it a tournament that needs to be qualified for by playing in SN events?

Either way, I didn't think that these type of events were eligible for PDGA sanctioning, or if they are, that they were point-granting events.

Nez, thanks for posting. Always glad to see BOD members' opinions. Don't know if I care for your avatar promoting another sport. :o:DWe may be the only 2 here who know what that disc is (or at least what mold number it is). Well, I can state that we are prob. the only ones who know what HMCU stands for!

[rhett]

Is the SN Finals a PDGA-approved tournament, granting points, and is also an Invitational? Or is it a tournament that needs to be qualified for by playing in SN events?



It was a PDGA sanctioned B-Tier last year. I assume PDGA points go along with it. You have to qualify by playing in an SN event first.

I'm not trying to pick on the SN Series, so let's stay away from that. :) But they bar PDGA members who are current and in good standing from playing in that event. This contradicts what Nez posted above.

[Pizza God]

I see and understand the PDGA policy and follow it. Luckly anyone who I did not want to play one of my tournaments didn't. (he did play doubles and caused minor problems that year)

This is a subject that I was interested in last month. I found out exactly what Nez said (actually from Nez too) and I gave up on the idea.

I still think TD's should be allowed to ban certain players from there tournaments. But I do see the problem with it and understand why it is a rule and will follow the PDGA rules.
___________________________________

As far as a player playing in a tournament that he does not like the TD and will cause problems, I don't undestand that. Why would anyone go play a tournament that they don't like or agree with the TD.

Back when I use to play lots of events, there were tournaments I did not play because of who ran them. ALL those guys have vanished from disc golf. They were the reason I became a PDGA official and eventually a TD. (over 8 years ago)

I agree with the PDGA's concept of due process. Players in good standing should be allowed to play in all PDGA sanctioned events. My problem exits with the process. First, player A can do ANYTHING he/she wants prior to an event and still play in that event. Then, said player is faced with the "possiblity" of a two year suspension, if and if only, 20 other players want to get involved in the politics. Next, said player is allowed to continue playing until the petition is completed and the PDGA rules. This process can take months to complete.

My other issue revolves around the severity of the penalty. As TDs, we are required to enforce all rules during play. This means DQing players, generally our friends, for voilating cetain rules. OK, I can do that if I have to. But at what point are TDs allowed to decide that player A's behavior is determental to his event prior to the actual event. You can't tell me that inflamatory remarks on a message board are "good" for our sport. Meanwhile, the "new" player caught drinking a beer in the "vacation" group during the final round is faced with a two year suspension, rapid and quick while the troublemaker who doesn't break any rules during play is allowed to undermine the TD and the event.

First, I'm asking why a TD is held responsible for upholding the rules of play but he can't prevent it. Second, the only recourse is either two year suspension or nothing and if the severity of the offense does not lend itself to a two year suspension then that behavior is acceptable since we do not penalize it. Finally, banning a player for one event for behavior deemed unacceptable by the TD will allow the player to modify his behavoir for the next event and still play. The player can then petition the PDGA on his own behalf regarding the TDs actions. This reduces the number of people caught up in the politics of the situation while giving the PDGA the final say so. The PDGA can always and quickly penalize a TD through the sanctioning process.

Bottomline, the TD is fully responsible for a PDGA event and we need to have a little faith in the TD and his support group and provide additional processes to support these players willing to step up and provide quality events on the behalf of the PDGA.

Sincerely,
Kevin Misiak
PDGA 10676
SSS#1

[idahojon]

Kevin,

Where in the world do you get the idea that a "two year suspension" is "the only recourse" for any offense? And that a suspension only happens "if and if only, 20 other players want to get involved in the politics."???

Take a look at the list of players under disciplinary action. There are 2 month, 3 month, 2 year, 10 year, and indefinite suspensions, and probations for various players and violations. Those penalties are assessed by the Commissioner.

It does NOT take a petition of 20 members to sanction someone for violating the Rules of Play. That provision of the Constitution is the mechanism for disciplining members for charges of dishonesty, working against the principles of the PDGA, or injuring the good standing of another Active or Supporting member. This is the method whereby a troublesome player might be sanctioned and prevented from entry into tournaments, but in order to prevent simple personality conflicts from resulting in PDGA action, it takes a sufficient base of knowledge (20 members) to file a complaint.

You, yourself, said, "Players in good standing should be allowed to play in all PDGA sanctioned events." A member in good standing is understood to be one that has paid his or her dues for the current year and is not under suspension. Now, that player may be a real jerk, may post what you consider inflammatory remarks on the message board, may do all sorts of things that you consider offensive before and after the tournament. But if he abides by the Rules of Play(including courtesy rules) during the tournament, there isn't a whole lot you can do about it.

The PDGA is intent on enforcing the Rules of Play. A PDGA Marshall or a Tournament Director is empowered to assess penalty throws or to disqualify someone, and pass information on to the Discipline Committee, Competition Director, and Commissioner for further action. It may take some time for additional action, if any, but it hardly takes "months to complete."

I truly understand your and others' annoyance at some players that are just a pain in the rear. We have all seen people like that at tournaments, at the store, at work, at school, even in our own families. The fact remains, at least in the PDGA world, that annoying behavior has nothing to do with the Rules of Play, except as it affects courteous play. Now if someone is making threats of harm to you or anyone else, it's a matter for the public authorities. Everything needs to be treated in the proper perspective and in the proper arena.

[tdwriter]

Rhett, Rhett, Rhett. Wish I could answer your question, but you'll have to speak to the PDGA directly about this one. I would assume the TD has this worked out.

But you're correct, you have to play in at least ONE SN event to qualify for the finals. I can see your point, too, and with this being a USDGC qualifier, it could raise some concern and questions.

I only hope this has been addressed by the PDGA and the td, Shane Seal, and Jim Orum of the SN.

Hey, they have SN's in Texas now. Come join in the fun. Either that, or hold one in Cali and all you guys can qualify. All ya gotta do is send in $2 per player, then they all qualify.

Take it easy, Russ3523 :cool:

[rhett]

I said I didn't want to make this a "versus the SN" thing. :)

I am curious what the arrangement is and how it is implemented that allows you to exclude current PDGA members in good standing. I don't know if the MADCi is a PDGA tourney, but if it is they do the same thing.

I do not have a problem with this setup, but it goes against what Nez posted as fact earlier in the thread. I am interested in the hows of it all because the TDs are in fact disallowing PDGA members in good standing. If you read my posts you will see that I am in favor of TDs having this right to refuse service, so please don't take my reference of the SN Final as an attack.

[tdwriter]

Rhett, I didn't take it that way at all.

I see your point and if something hasn't been worked out, it needs to be before the event, which is sometime in August or September. I would hope the arrangement has been made, but as you indicate, it could be a precedent setting type deal.

No feud here, dude :D rwc :cool:

[neonnoodle]

Nez was addressing a different point than "Invitational PDGAs" he was addressing a TD selectively pre-disqualifying specific PDGA Members in good standing from participating in your typical PDGA event.

Technically they must be labelled "PDGA X-Tier" and recieve approval from the PDGA Competition Director. Last years MADCi was a PDGA XB-Tier event.

There is a big difference between these Regional Series Finals and a stand alone event or one of the series events on their own. The biggest is that they are pretty rare, the second of which is that they are designed to increase participation at other events (the series leading up to them).

This sort of arrangement wouldn't work for just any old event...

Thanks for your response, idahojon

First, I did not know there was a list of players under disciplinary action that I could access. Where can that list be found? Second, I was unaware that players have been suspended for less than two years.

Next, I believe you misunderstood my position. I understand that it does not take a petition for violations of the Rules of Play but they are only in effect from the two minute warning until the scorecard has been turned in. I'm concerned about behavoir before an event and the impact on the event. Please correct me again if I'm wrong but as I understand you, a player may partake in any activity or behavoir prior to an event and must be allowed to play in that event, unless a petition of 20 players can be filed and acted on by the PDGA prior to the event.

I believe an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. At a time when there is a focus on our sport's growth and image, do we have some "code of conduct" that inhibits players and TDs from misrepresenting our sport outside the time of play. I'm not advocating the policing of private activities but do we allow children molesters to play PDGA events?

Let's discuss a more relevant example. Here is part of the agreement for using this board.

"Remember: you are in a public forum, talking to your fellow disc golfers. Behave accordingly. Disagreements are fine; flaming is not.
This PDGA-sponsored board does not guarantee freedom of speech. Messages containing profanity or inflammatory comments may be removed. Individuals who persist in this behavior may be barred from future posting."

Let's say a player is barred from this message board for posts regarding a TD or tournament. Can he still play in that tournament if no petition is filed?

Thanks for your input,
Kevin

[terrycalhoun]

Here's where that information is posted: http://www.pdga.com/org/disciplinary_actions.php

[rhett]

Let's say a player is barred from this message board for posts regarding a TD or tournament. Can he still play in that tournament if no petition is filed?



That's a great question.

While it is interesting to see who is suspended or on probabtion, the woman in me needs to see the scoop!!!!
Why is 2003 AM World Champ suspended. It shouldn't be a secret should it?
Provide some details ya'll!!!
If we knew what people were doing wrong out there, maybe some of us would make sure not to do those things.
I guess what I am saying is, spill it, make an example of 'em!
SCOOP YA'LL
Tell us!!
Why is the AM Champ suspened for 2 month?
Wasn't the tank top bad enough?

[md21954]

http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=153146&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

[prairie_dawg]

While it is interesting to see who is suspended or on probabtion, the woman in me needs to see the scoop!!!!
Why is 2003 AM World Champ suspended. It shouldn't be a secret should it?
Provide some details ya'll!!!
If we knew what people were doing wrong out there, maybe some of us would make sure not to do those things.
I guess what I am saying is, spill it, make an example of 'em!
SCOOP YA'LL
Tell us!!
Why is the AM Champ suspened for 2 month?
Wasn't the tank top bad enough?



Read it here and leave it there. Please
Emotional Discussion of Suspension (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=153146&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=31&fpart=1)
:cool:

[idahojon]

First, I did not know there was a list of players under disciplinary action that I could access. Where can that list be found? Second, I was unaware that players have been suspended for less than two years.



First, the info can be found at the link posted above by Terry Calhoun. Second, there has been a raging discussion for the last week or so here on the message board about three players that were suspended for two months. I guess you must have missed that.


Next, I believe you misunderstood my position. I understand that it does not take a petition for violations of the Rules of Play but they are only in effect from the two minute warning until the scorecard has been turned in. I'm concerned about behavoir before an event and the impact on the event. Please correct me again if I'm wrong but as I understand you, a player may partake in any activity or behavoir prior to an event and must be allowed to play in that event, unless a petition of 20 players can be filed and acted on by the PDGA prior to the event.



Actually, I think you misunderstood me. What I said was that only behavior specifically mentioned in the Constitution of the PDGA can be addressed by petitioning the Board of Directors, as noted in the Constitution. If you think that someone is engaging in illegal, threatening or dangerous behavior prior to the event, the proper course of action is to take it up with the civil authorities.


I believe an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. At a time when there is a focus on our sport's growth and image, do we have some "code of conduct" that inhibits players and TDs from misrepresenting our sport outside the time of play. I'm not advocating the policing of private activities but do we allow children molesters to play PDGA events?




I guess I'm not sure what you mean by players and TD's "misrepresenting our sport outside the time of play." Your example of allowing a child molester doesn't have much to do with the representation of our sport, but EVERYTHING to do with public safety. If this person has been convicted of such an offense and served his time, his probation/parole agreement probably has something to say about where he can go and who he can be around. Again, a matter for the civil authorities. No matter your disgust at this person's background, the PDGA Constitution and Rules of Play do not cover this. And it's not in our purview to do so. We are a private organization, whose mission is to promote our sport. We are not a civil governing body, nor can we enforce laws or regulations outside the intention of our Constitution.

I know there have been instances in the past where players who have abrasive and irritating personalities have run afoul of TD's, but unless that person poses a physical risk to the TD or other players, if he is in good standing, he is allowed to play. Give him courtesy warning, penalty throws, DQ for continued behavior. Those are within the Rules of Play. DQ may result in probation or suspension. Petitioning for prior suspension based on known bad behavior will probably not.

I'm personally offended by people that drink excessively and carry their boisterous, obnoxious behavior to the course. They annoy me and make my disc golf experience less enjoyable. If they are adults, there isn't much I can do about their drinking, but I can assess penalties for their behavior during a tournament. Hopefully, they will learn from that and keep such away from the game.


Let's discuss a more relevant example. Here is part of the agreement for using this board.

"Remember: you are in a public forum, talking to your fellow disc golfers. Behave accordingly. Disagreements are fine; flaming is not.
This PDGA-sponsored board does not guarantee freedom of speech. Messages containing profanity or inflammatory comments may be removed. Individuals who persist in this behavior may be barred from future posting."

Let's say a player is barred from this message board for posts regarding a TD or tournament. Can he still play in that tournament if no petition is filed?



Did he say that he thought the payout stunk? Did he complain about the condition of the course? Did he offend the sensibilities of the TD? For those things, probably not.

Did he threaten the TD or other players with his remarks? Did he say he would cause harm to person or property? Most likely he could/should/would be barred from the tournament and charged with making threats.

Now, don't take this as advocating any of this behavior. It's pretty clear to me from the Rules of Play and the PDGA Constitution that there are certain things that we can control and certain mechanisms for exercising that control. When it goes beyond the realm of the PDGA's regulation, then you need to exert control through other means. Social pressure and the intervention of civil authority are two such means.

Maybe I've got a thicker skin than most. Maybe I realize that this sport has its share of jerks, just like every other part of life. I could probably run some pretty selective tournaments by just inviting those people that I have never seen or heard utter any profanity or never have a beer or never mutter angry words or never criticize things that happen at tourneys. Selective as in there would be about 2 people playing and I might not be one of them. One thing that I do use is a local rule that says that "the provisions of PDGA Rule 804.05 are in effect from 6:00 am on the day of the tournament until two hours after the completion of the awards meeting." That way if people wish to participate in activities that may harm the image of the sport, they are well away from the course and tournament site.

It really sounds as if you (and a few others) would like to bar individuals that you have issues with from playing in PDGA tournaments in your area. I'd counsel you to first try to work with these people to help them change their behaviors in a positive manner before you try to use the PDGA as a hammer to rectify your conflicts. You are always welcome to not sanction your tournaments if you want to ban these folks. Of course, the rest of your player constituency might find somewhere else to play so they don't lose out on points and ratings. That being the case, you might just find a way to work with the "problem children."

Hey, I had a player threaten me and my life last season, this certian individual will never be allowed to participate in any event that I run sanctioned or not. I kicked his a** out of the tourney and he still continued to play! Two hole's later his drunka** was deceived by a creek and fell in head first, it was "JUSTICE" served on a hot plate. He not only made an idiot of himself, he lost half of his bag. Fortunately the leader card behind us witnessed the whole incident unfold, oh yeah, did I mention that I was the TD of the event.

In severe cases like the above mentioned, I do believe that the TD, or hosting club, has the right of not letting certain idividuals play or not play, as long as the reasons are documented and witnessed, not just a personal grudge.

[prairie_dawg]

Hey, I had a player threaten me and my life last season, this certian individual will never be allowed to participate in any event that I run sanctioned or not. I kicked his a** out of the tourney and he still continued to play! Two hole's later his drunka** was deceived by a creek and fell in head first, it was "JUSTICE" served on a hot plate. He not only made an idiot of himself, he lost half of his bag. Fortunately the leader card behind us witnessed the whole incident unfold, oh yeah, did I mention that I was the TD of the event.

In severe cases like the above mentioned, I do believe that the TD, or hosting club, has the right of not letting certain idividuals play or not play, as long as the reasons are documented and witnessed, not just a personal grudge.



That was during an event. Good use of the rules to DQ them from that event. That would not allow you to bar this person from your next sanctioned event, unless they were suspended. :D

This particular individual was suspended from all club events sanctioned or not.

[james_mccaine]

I should never read these threads, they gotta be bad for my health. :)

Why is this guy not on that suspended list?

This particular individual was suspended from all club events sanctioned or not.



There is nothing in the PDGA Constitution that bars a club or a league from banning a player from its non-sanctioned events. Ordinarily, however, a club/TD may not bar a member in good standing from competing in a PDGA-sanctioned event.

The 2004 PDGA Tour Event Sanctioning Agreement (see page 2), however, appears to provide a mechanism whereby an event TD may ban an otherwise eligible member from competing in his/her tournament, provided that the TD obtain prior, express permission from the PDGA to do so:

Local Conditions:
Per the terms of this agreement, PDGA TDs will enforce the PDGA Rules of Play. <font color="red">If there are any local conditions regarding this event which would restrict</font> the enforcement of any PDGA rule or <font color="red">the participation of an otherwise eligible PDGA member</font>, please provide details:

Note further that TDs:

• agree that if any provision in this agreement or any Rule of Play is unacceptable the TD shall contact the PDGA Competition Director to seek a waiver. Specifically, <font color="red">clearance is required at the time of sanctioning for any local conditions which would restrict</font> the enforcement of any PDGA rule or <font color="red">the participation of an otherwise eligible PDGA Member. If no waiver is granted this agreement and the Rules of Play are binding.</font> (p. 4)

(Has this been provision been in place in the past, or is it new to the 2004 Agreement?)

By requiring approval for any proposed ban by an independent, disinterested third party (the Competition Director) prior to sanctioning, the mechanism protects the the player(s) in question from an arbitrary or frivolous ban on the part of the TD while at the same time protecting the event and the TD from the proximate likelihood of abuse by those player(s).

So the answer to the question posed in the topic appears to be, "No, TDs cannot choose who's allowed to play, but they may request that the PDGA disallow a player's participation in their tournaments."

[rhett]

That's perfect.

Dang ... looks like I killed this thread.

Don't want to drag this out unnecessarily, but there are a few things I'd like to know to satisfy my curiosity.

Rhett, Jon, Nick, Pizza God, or one of the other long-time TDs: do you know if the phrase "otherwise eligible member" has been part of the Sanctioning Agreement in previous years, and if not, when it was added? (I'm curious whether it was added specifically to address situations like the one involving Herm the Lefty a couple of years ago.)

Jon, Terry, or someone involved in granting tournament sanctioning: can you confirm that the "Local Conditions" clause in the Sanctioning Agreement does, in fact, permit what, practically speaking, amounts to a de facto one event suspension (for cause) of an otherwise eligible member? If so, is it safe to presume that the request to ban the player is passed on to the Commissioner (or the Commish's designated representative) for investigation/review, since only the Commish may issue a suspension?

Also, the language of the Sanctioning Agreement implies that requests to ban/suspend a player must be made and approved prior to the grant of sanctioning. If player's behavior or demeanor becomes an issue AFTER the tournament is sanctioned but before the tournament occurs (say, in a case where an annual tournament traditionally held in October receives sanctioned in February, but in June the host club bans a PDGA member from competing in its events for the remainder of the year), is there a provision for a TD to request that the player be banned/suspended from his/her event AFTER sanctioning has been granted?

Not trying to be difficult: as I noted above, I'm asking these questions out of curiosity. If you would prefer not to answer here, please PM me. Thanks.

[Jake L]

Good point, there needs to be an clause that allows TD's to send in a form with names of players he/she deems unfit to play in that tourny. Just in case a new problem with a player arises.

[rhett]

If conditions change, I don't see any problem with sending in a revised sanctioning agreement.

If conditions change, I don't see any problem with sending in a revised sanctioning agreement.



That's certainly a possibility: my only concern with that would be whether or not a player subject to a potential event suspension would receive a fair hearing in light of the fact that the tournament has already been sanctioned.

As I recall, in the situation involving Herm TL, the TD volunteered to surrender sanctioning, but the decision was made to allow the tournament to proceed with sanctioning because withdrawing sanctioning would harm other players who were seeking to qualify for the next year's Worlds.

That is not to question the integrity or the fairmindedness of the people who would decide whether or not to approve the revised Sanctioning Agreement; it is simply a recognition that once an event has been sanctioned, it acquires an additional set of considerations that weigh heavily in favor of the event retaining its sanction, which potentially make it easier for a TD to obtain approval for changes to the Sanctioning Agreement; changes which, in the absence of prior sanctioning, might not be approved.

Here's a situation for a TD - should this PDGA member with a TD license be allowed to speak to another PDGA member with a TD license in the following manner on the internet?

Have you seen Herm LF's new one over at: http://odsa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1503&amp;sid=1be4e1ec3113bab99b25bbf57 5c5a841

Just a couple of thoughts:

1. I don't think anyone should publicly post a private email without the author's permission.

2. Herm's flaming post isn't helping the situation. Two wrong don't make it right.

3. Posting Herm inflammatory post on this website was unnecessary since you had the address posted for other to use. Three wrong don't make it right, either.

4. Many local disc golf discussion boards have similar problems. Public inflammatory post are discourteous. No respectable human being would say those things in a restuarant but for some reason many players feel it is OK to blast away on a public bullentin board. Why aren't these people using private emails or phone calls? In my opinion, to "out" the object of their displeasure for their own purposes.

Finally, will the PDGA enforce its ban on inflammatory posts on this board when a player posts someone else sh*t. Doubt it, since we're all in good standing!

Kevin

Thanks, neonnoodle!

I appreciate the edit of unneccesary, repetitive content.

Kevin

[Jake L]

E-mail is NOT private! Several cases of people being fired, sued, what-have-you, over e-mail has happened. If you want it to be private, Go and TALK to someone, face to face. Many have misunderstood an e-mail as a insult, when it was not intended that way. there is no inflection to voice of e-mail, No facial expressions to let a person know what is serious and what is a joke. If you have a problem deal with that person, not your computer

[neonnoodle]

Are we lawyers or are we Disc Golfers? Cheese and Crackers! If someone sends you an email, whether it is legal to post it in public or not is not the issue. Whether you want to be a rude and inconsiderate person is.

Certainly this electronic medium leaves a lot to be desired. But in many cases it is all we have. We need to at least attempt to give each other the benefit of the doubt. Yes, that's me saying that.

Of all the apparent tiffs I've had on here, there have only been 2 people that have ever emailed me to say that they REALLY did not appreciate my online persona. Maybe 2 others have confronted me and we learned to appreciate each other, or at least not read too much into what we wrote online.

Life is too short for this petty bitterness. I don't envy the animosity I read about on this board between certain folks. You need to face it and deal with it and this PDGA Message Board is not the place for it. Pick up the phone and be gentle people.

[gnduke]

But this way is so much more fun... :D

[james_mccaine]

Pick up the phone and be gentle people.



:eek: :D

[neonnoodle]

Gary and James, there is a difference between this sort of public disclosure of hate and our jibing. These guys need a mediator, not to mention an English teacher.

WOW, I just read that whole thread......

English is obviously a foreign language......


Is Herm banned form here, I havent seen him post in quite some time, even if Dave of Live Oak stole his avatar. (dumb considering his name isnt HERM)

Sounds like someone definately has mental problems.....

[idahojon]

Here's a situation for a TD - should this PDGA member with a TD license be allowed to speak to another PDGA member with a TD license in the following manner on the internet?




What's a TD license? There is no such thing. In order to be a tournament director, you must be a Certified Official. In order to be a Certified Official, you must be a member in good standing (among other things). So, really, it comes down to whether a member should be addressing another member (or anyone else) in such a manner.

The issue here is whether this type of emotional discourse has any place on this or any other message board. Obviously, ODSA has a section on their forum specifically for posts with "strong language." And there are those that just can't express their opinions without using such language or doing things that get around the language filters. (Using other characters for letters in offensive words, using near-sounding words, using perjorative language to refer to others that don't agree with them. You know who you are.)

This message board is read by people outside the sport, people that could be future members, sponsors, etc. There is no reason that such combative and insulting language has to be used here. If you can't make your point without being demeaning, then take a deep breath and rephrase it, or wait until you can do it in a more appropriate manner. The attitude that "they can learn to deal with it" just doesn't wash with me. I know of people that have discontinued their membership in the PDGA because of this and other less-than-upstanding things in our media.

I'm not talking about inarticulate, ungrammatical messages with poor spelling. They are almost fun to try and decode, though, at times, I have to just give up and move on. I'm talking about being mean-spirited and insulting. It just isn't necessary here or anywhere else, for that matter.

You got a problem with this? Then contact me by email, private message, or phone. Convince me that such communication techniques are appropriate, valid, or necessary. I doubt you can do it, but at least try to in the proper forum.

[nicholson5150]

:D

Seems this story has taken care of itself - at least in Washington State: read the following.

Wednesday, March 24, 2004 · Last updated 4:39 p.m.

PT--Locke signs cyberstalking bill, dozens moreTHE ASSOCIATED PRESSOLYMPIA, Wash. --

Using the Internet to stalk or harass someone will become illegal under one of 40 new laws signed by Gov. Gary Locke on Wednesday.House Bill 2771, which passed the Legislature unanimously, plugs a loophole in the state's laws against stalking and harassment, which had mostly addressed in-person threats or telephone calls.

"I never thought that we'd have a problem with cyberstalking," Locke said as he signed the bill in the presence of Joelle Ligon, the Seattle woman whose relentless stalker inspired the bill.Ligon has spent years trying to get police to take action against a former boyfriend who barraged her and her co-workers with e-mail and other forms of Internet-related harassment."He was relentless over the course of about five years," Ligon said.

"Up to this point, victims have had nowhere to turn."The new crime of cyberstalking will be punishable by as much as a year in jail and $5,000.The measure sponsored by Rep. Helen Sommers, D-Seattle, defines cyberstalking as using the Internet with the intent of harassing, intimidating, tormenting or embarrassing another person using lewd or lascivious language. It also covers stalkers who use pagers or text message on mobile phones.


CERTIFICATION OF ENROLLMENT
ENGROSSED SUBSTITUTE HOUSE BILL 2771
58th Legislature
2004 Regular Session
Passed by the House February 13, 2004
Yeas 97 Nays 0
Speaker of the House of Representatives
Passed by the Senate March 2, 2004
Yeas 47 Nays 0
President of the Senate
CERTIFICATE

I, Richard Nafziger, Chief Clerk of the House of Representatives of the State of Washington, do hereby certify that the attached is ENGROSSED SUBSTITUTE HOUSE BILL 2771 as passed by the House of Representatives and the Senate on the dates hereon set forth.
Chief Clerk
Approved
Governor of the State of Washington
FILED
Secretary of State
State of Washington
_____________________________________________

ENGROSSED SUBSTITUTE HOUSE BILL 2771
_____________________________________________

Passed Legislature - 2004 Regular Session

State of Washington 58th Legislature 2004 Regular Session

By House Committee on Criminal Justice & Corrections (originally
sponsored by Representatives Sommers, Lantz, Cody, Nixon, Morrell,
Hankins, Tom, Kirby, Delvin, Mielke, Pearson, McMahan, Moeller,
Dickerson, McIntire, Kenney, Kessler, Conway, Darneille, Sullivan,
Schual-Berke, Kagi and Ormsby)

READ FIRST TIME 02/02/04.
AN ACT Relating to the prevention of cyberstalking; amending RCW
9A.46.060 and 9A.46.100; reenacting and amending RCW 9.94A.515 and 9.94A.515;
adding a new section to chapter 9.61 RCW; prescribing penalties; providing an
effective date; providing an expiration date; and declaring an emergency.

BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF WASHINGTON:

{+ NEW SECTION. +} Sec. 1. A new section is added to chapter 9.61 RCW
to read as follows:
(1) A person is guilty of cyberstalking if he or she, with intent to
harass, intimidate, torment, or embarrass any other person, and under
circumstances not constituting telephone harassment, makes an electronic
communication to such other person or a third party:
(a) Using any lewd, lascivious, indecent, or obscene words, images, or
language, or suggesting the commission of any lewd or lascivious act;
(b) Anonymously or repeatedly whether or not conversation occurs; or
(c) Threatening to inflict injury on the person or property of the
person called or any member of his or her family or household.
(2) Cyberstalking is a gross misdemeanor, except as provided in
subsection (3) of this section.
(3) Cyberstalking is a class C felony if either of the following
applies:
(a) The perpetrator has previously been convicted of the crime of
harassment, as defined in RCW 9A.46.060, with the same victim or a member of
the victim's family or household or any person specifically named in a no-
contact order or no-harassment order in this or any other state; or
(b) The perpetrator engages in the behavior prohibited under subsection
(1)(c) of this section by threatening to kill the person threatened or any
other person.
(4) Any offense committed under this section may be deemed to have been
committed either at the place from which the communication was made or at the
place where the communication was received.
(5) For purposes of this section, "electronic communication" means the
transmission of information by wire, radio, optical cable, electromagnetic,
or other similar means. "Electronic communication" includes, but is not
limited to, electronic mail, internet based communications, pager service,
and electronic text messaging.