Making an O.B. call.

I would appreciate any input on the following ruling.
At NT Waco a throw landed in the grass very near the water line. I tried to determine if the disc was actually suspended above water but the grass was too thick and I did not want to move the grass and take a chance on moving the disc. I then called the throw safe based on the OB rule stating that a disc must be clearly OB in order to be called so. After the players made their way around to the disc they could not determine if the disc was OB either and the group decided to give the spot to the player. In hindsight I think I should have asked the player to throw a provisional and let the group make the OB call when they arrived at the disc. My second question is as a PDGA official I made the call the disc was not OB. If all the players had all agreed the disc was OB when they looked at it or if they couldn't agree would my original ruling stand? My best guess is the ruling would have to stand and they could appeal to the TD after the round. Input please. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[gnduke]

A ruling by an official trumps a group decision (even a ruling by a spotter that is not an official if the TD has so empowered them). A non-playing official may make any call that they see at anytime during play.

Normally an official won't make a ruling until requested to by the players, but he does have the ability to do so (and overrule a group decision) without a request.

[Sharky]

I am unclear on when a disc "suspended on grass" near the edge of an OB water hazard is OB. I was told that if you press down with your finger behind the disc (between the disc and the edge of the water area) and your finger goes underwater, even a little, that it is OB but I am unclear if that is correct.

[neonnoodle]

What did you find in the rulebook about this? Check out the "Rules" link above.

[Sharky]

803.08 OUT OF BOUNDS
A. A disc shall be considered out-of-bounds only when it comes to rest and it is clearly and completely surrounded by the out-of-bounds area.

So if the finger is wet it is OB, correct teach :confused:

[rhett]

Water is by definition a casual hazard and not OB.. So just being wet tells you nothing. If the TD declares a body of water to be OB, using "the edge of the water" is usually a horrible OB line, for your situation and many many others. Sometimes it is okay, like one pond at my EIEIO tourney where there is no vegetation and no change in water level on tournament day.

So to answer your question about your situation, you would have to have been at the player's meeting and heard wht the TD had to say about it. If you are familiar with the course and the TD doesn't mention it, you should raise your hand and ask about it. Even if you know the answer, you will be helping someone out that might not know! :)

[gang4010]

billybman,
were you an official, a spotter, or in the group?

If the body of water in question was declared OB - how did the group decide that the disc was not OB? Was the vegetation coming up out of shallow water - and you had to move grass to be able to tell? When the player took their stance - were they standing in shallow water?

You say you didn't want to move the grass because it may move the disc - this doesn't quite make sense. If you and all players were present to evaluate the lie - what actions were taken in advance of declaring the disc IB?

I don't believe the rules state that you can't look closely, even move stuff around in order to provide clarity as to OB status. Just looking from above and saying "I can't tell" so it must be OK is a pretty weak attempt to make a legitimate call.

You raise perhaps a more important issue w/your question though. Perhaps any course used for a NT event should be required to meet a more stringent/uniform standard for how OB should be marked. Water lines are unacceptable as OB lines (IMO) for just this circumstance. Some form of solid or marked (painted) line should be the standard for our top events.

[tbender]

If Billy is commenting on the call I think he is, the grass did interfere with being able to see the OB line. Tufts of grass protrude out over the water, with the roots of the grass six inches from the OB line. Plus, the bank is not a straight line. The disc was at point where it was hard to determine where the bank was under the grass, as pushing through the grass moved the disc into the water, but an edge of the disc could have been over dry land based on the contour of the bank.

I was following the card and I commented that there is a need for rope around that green. An official on the course said he didn't like that for the Pros, but maybe Am weekend, since he felt the Pros should get the benefit of the doubt. :confused:

I was spotting on that hole and serving as an official. Do you think I should have ask the player to throw a provisional?

The body of water was declared OB by the TD at the players meeeting. Before I made the call I got down on my hands and knees and looked as closely as possible just like the group did when they arrived at the disc. I know the water line is not easy to call on that hole but I vote against roping off the hole. Just my opinion.

[J A B]

I don't understand why you would be against using rope to clearly identify an O.B. line. Take away optionalism, take away guess work, what don't you like about that?

Making a bunch of artifical OB is weak, but having existing OB clearly marked sounds great to me. IMO.

[rhett]

I agree with J.A.B.! What is the problem with clearly marking a difficult OB??????? The problem with NOT marking is that two groups can call the exact same lie differently.

Thanks for all the posts guys. I want to make the best call I can and getting input and opinions sure helps. I wanted to become an official to help grow the sport since I certainly will never be much of a player. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[gnduke]

I wanted to become an official to help grow the sport since I certainly will never be much of a player



and I thought that was where TD's came from :D

[twoputtok]

LAMO :D:D

[ching_lizard]

Billy - as an official you get to make the call. As a spotter appointed by the TD, you still get to make the call. Your ruling supercedes the determination of the card of players. This is true (according to the rules) even if you aren't a certified official. TDs can appoint people to act as spotters and their rulings supercede those of the group. Does that answer your original question?

For my two cents, it sounds like you made the correct call in giving the benefit of any doubt to the player. Good job.

[gnduke]

That sounds real familiar for some reason

[md21954]

this has to have been answered somewhere on here, but i can't find it.

if a disc comes to rest on a road and is OB, then get's hit by a car before everyone is even off the tee and rolls back in bounds, what's the call?

thanks

[bigchiz]

road rage

The disc is inbounds when the player gets to it, so there's no penalty.

Seems to me that it's no different than if a disc is 2 meters up in a tree, and falls to the ground by the time player gets to it.

[neonnoodle]

Paul,

Did you try looking it up in the Rules link? What did you find?

Nick

[md21954]

yup...

i've found the rules to be somewhat vague. anything relevent under interference refers to a disc being moved intentionally. i think this is the most relevent OB call, and it would mean the disc was played IB correctly.

this was a roller i threw on 14 at druid and wound up in greenspring, when it came back in, my group high-fived me and i played it. i think it is the same ruling as though wind knocked it down from a tree.

803.08 OUT OF BOUNDS

D. If the in-bounds status of a disc is uncertain, either a majority of the group or an official shall make the determination. If the thrower moves the disc before a determination has been made, the disc shall be considered
out-of-bounds, and he or she shall proceed in accordance with 803.08 B. If a player other than the thrower moves the disc before a determination has been made, the disc shall be considered in-bounds, and play for the thrower and
the mover of the disc shall proceed under the rules of interference, 803.06 B and C.

I disagree. Rule 803.08 cleary states that a disc is out of bounds once it comes to rest out of bounds. There are provisions if the OB status is uncertain, but if it's at rest and in certain OB, it OB period. There are no provisions about cars or any other non-player forces allowing the disc to be moved into the fair.

People get confused because of the vertical rule which allows the wind to knock a disc out of the tree before the player gets there. That rule is the exception and is clearly stated in the rulebook.

[md21954]

had it come to rest? apparently not. it may have been sitting still, but forces i have no control over had moved it by the time i got to it. there was no stalling, it moved back in bounds before everyone had tee'd off.

another interesting question. the disc is on the curb, half in bounds, half out (so it's IB), then a car hits it, and it moves clearly OB.

i say that disc hadn't officially come to rest until you got to it and it is played OB.

Coming to rest cleary means all motion has stopped. The only exception is when in water, coming to rest is defined at the not moving or the disc is only moving under the force of the water.

[md21954]

apparently, all motion had not stopped or else we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[gang4010]

If the disc was put back in motion by forces other than the thrower (i.e. a car or a spectator or a passerby, or the wind) - it HAD come to rest - and should be placed as near that location (as agreed to by the majority of the group) as is possible. If you were in the road on Greenspring Ave, saw a car hit the disc making it end up back IB - sorry - you are OB.

[gang4010]

Conversely, if a disc was seen to be resting against an IB curb, and a car hit it making it OB - you would be entitled to place it back in bounds in a similar fashion. But the IB/OB status would be determined by the course rules, and how curbs are defined in relation to OB. Very few courses use the curb line for just this reason. Usually it is the grass line inside the curb which is used as the plane which must be broken to be IB. But I'm sure that varies from course to course.

As a clarification to my statement above, if your disc was still rolling when it was re-directed by a car back IB - you're safe. But if you saw it fall over in the street -and was then hit and propelled back IB - you're out.

[Moderator005]

The player never had the chance to place his marker and establish his lie, so there is no penalty stroke and you play from where the disc ended up IB after the car redirected it.

What if a disc gets stuck above 2 meters, but falls out later before the thrower has a chance to mark his lie? Would you still call that a penalty stroke?

803.02 MARKING THE LIE
A. After each throw, the thrown disc must be left where it came to rest until the lie is established by the placing of a marker. This can be done by placing a mini marker disc on the playing surface between the hole and the disc, directly in line with the hole, touching the thrown disc. A player may instead choose, without touching or repositioning the thrown disc, to use the thrown disc as the marker. The marker may not be moved until the throw is released. A marker inadvertently moved prior to the throw shall be returned to its correct location.

[tkieffer]

No, at rest state is not determinied by whether the disc has been marked or not. No different than if a curious non-player picks up your disc next to the basket while you observe from the tee and starts walking away with it, not knowing what it is. After yelling for them to drop it, you put it back as close to the original location as can be determined.

Rule that applies is 803.06, (B. If a disc at rest on the playing surface is moved, the disc shall be replaced as close as possible to its original location, as determined by a majority of the group or an official). If this determined original location is OB, disc is OB.

[gang4010]

803.08 Out of Bounds
A. A disc shall be considered out-of-bounds only when it comes to rest and it is clearly and completely surrounded by the out-of-bounds area.

If you can see the disc lying in the street - not moving - it is clearly OB - regardless of the players chance to appropriately mark it. The only question would be where it was last IB before going OB in the first place. If it was unclear if the disc had stopped moving before being hit by the car - the player would have a legitimate argument.


803.06 Interference
B. If a disc at rest on the playing surface is moved, the disc shall be replaced as close as possible to its original location, as determined by a majority of the group or an official.

This is what he's talking about - above the playing surface is a special condition addressed specifically in the rules. If you see the disc has stopped moving from the power of the thrower - and it is subsequently moved by other forces - it is placed back as close as possible to it's original location. If that location is OB - then sorry - penalty.

Except that some buffoon will probably come on and say that "playing surface" is not defined anywhere, and will try to argue that OB areas are not part of the playing surface, since you can't play from there.

But ignoring that argument, it boggles the mind that so many people could argue that this somehow counts as IB when the rule is patently clear.

[tbender]

Posted this in the other topic, but meant to post it here:



By the logic that the disc was at rest OB and then moved unintentionally IB, then should discs that get knocked out of the basket/chains by a wind gust or another disc be considered to be at rest (which it is) and therefore the player be credited for holing out?

Instead, the player is considered unfortunate and has to finish the hole again. Or is that another non-rule rule?

Craig, by your logic(by the book interperetaion)

A disc resting in a tree for 15 seconds before falling shoud be declared OB, yet that is clearly not the case.

hrmmmmm......sorta makes you wonder.....

[rhett]

The corollary of the incorrect street ruling is this:

You throw your drive and and it comes in beautifully, skips under the basket and clinks the pole. You are parked for a "head banger" two. Suddenly a soccer ball comes flying at the basket from an adjacent grassy area, nails your disc, and causes it to kick out, catch an edge, and roll down a hill and 250 feet away.

According to the incorrect "car hits disc atrest in the street" ruling you would be stuck 250 feet away, which clearly isn't fair. According the rules, you mark the disc as close as you can to where it came to rest, as determined by the group.

[rhett]

A disc resting in a tree for 15 seconds before falling shoud be declared OB, yet that is clearly not the case.



GAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!

A DISC IN A TREE ABOVE 2 METERS IN NOT O.B.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It just happens to be a 1 stroke penalty. It's not OB. It's not OB. It's not OB. It's not OB. It's not OB. It's not OB. It's not OB. It's not OB. It's not OB. It's not OB. It's not OB. It's not OB. It's not OB. It's not OB. It's not OB.

A disc resting in a tree for 15 seconds before falling shoud be declared OB, yet that is clearly not the case.



GAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!

A DISC IN A TREE ABOVE 2 METERS IN NOT O.B.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It just happens to be a 1 stroke penalty. It's not OB. It's not OB. It's not OB. It's not OB. It's not OB. It's not OB. It's not OB. It's not OB. It's not OB. It's not OB. It's not OB. It's not OB. It's not OB. It's not OB. It's not OB.




TOE-MAY-TOE TOE-MAH-TOE

Its not IN bounds.....though i see where you are coming from....it is still a force of nature/life that was not the player, changing the location, thus nullifying the penalty.

[scottsearles]

A disc resting in a tree for 15 seconds before falling shoud be declared OB, yet that is clearly not the case.



GAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!

A DISC IN A TREE ABOVE 2 METERS IN NOT O.B.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It just happens to be a 1 stroke penalty. It's not OB. It's not OB. It's not OB. It's not OB. It's not OB. It's not OB. It's not OB. It's not OB. It's not OB. It's not OB. It's not OB. It's not OB. It's not OB. It's not OB. It's not OB.



So Rhett would it just be OUT OF PLAY/UNPLAYABLE?

[rhett]

Read your rulebook, schmacky. OB and above the playing surface are two distinctly different occurances that just happen to both have 1 stroke penalties. By incorrectly calling a disc above 2 meters "OB" you are now incorrectly using above 2 meter rules on the OB disc.

That is a problem! :)

[gnduke]

A disc suspended above 2 meters is a penalty, not OB. The disc is IB if the area directly below the disc is IB. There is just a separate rule in the book that provides for a penalty.

A disc suspended above 2 meters is IB.

[gang4010]

Shmack Daddy,

As I stated, a disc at rest above the playing surface is a separate and special condition addressed specifically by the rules - here it is:
803.07
C. No penalty shall be incurred if the disc falls, unassisted by a player or spectator, to a position less than two meters above the playing surface before the thrower arrives at the disc. The thrower may not delay in order to allow the position of the disc to improve.


No need to wonder - a disc at rest on the ground is different than one in a tree. Deciding (or knowing) the status of OB for a disc on the ground is most often easily discernable (especially if it's in the street, or across an obvious OB line), unlike being able to know for certain if a disc is above 2 meters. And while in certain conditions - that too should be easy to tell - the benefit of the doubt is given to the player - allowing him/her to arrive at the disc before determining its status.

[rhett]

The leeway on the above 2-meter disc is also granted because it is difficult to determine if the disc is slowly moving in the branches as it tries to fall.

I knew it dindt apply, I just thought i woudl throw it out there for you DGRZ's to shoot down with a rule post, showing it to be wrong.

SOMEONE was gonna post it, why shoudnbt I be the one to pu the "head on the chopping block"

:cool:

[gang4010]

chop chop :) Glad we could help!

[md21954]

ok... i think i've got this down now...

if a disk lands in a tree, is under 2 meters, then a gust of wind knocks it down and it rolls into an OB street, comes to rest, then is hit by a car and rolls back in bounds, where do you play it, and is it OB or IB? :D just kidding of course.

i've heard back from the rules committee already. isn't that awesome? :D it turns out, the disc should be counted OB and i owe my colleague a bottle of belvedere. in the past, apparently "at rest" could have been disputed, but the wording of 803.06B....

"If a disc at rest on the playing surface is moved, the disc shall be replaced as close as possible to its original location, as determined by a majority of the group or an official. If a marker disc is moved, the marker disc shall be replaced as close as possible to its original location, as determined by a majority of the group or an official. See also 803.07 C and D for movement of a disc above the playing surface. "

...was intended to clear this up.

thanks to everyone for chiming in.

Here's a scenario that I was wondering about. A disc is thrown and the disc heads ob toward the street. The disc lands in the street and rolls until it comes to rest in a drainage hole. The disc is hanging halfway over the drop in the drainage hole with the other half hanging on the curb part of the road. If the disc was to land on the curb then it would not be ob because it was not in the road but this disc was hanging underneath the curb. Is it ob? Also I have seen one roll into the ditch and fall into the bottom. Would this be ob?

If the disc was to land on the curb then it would not be ob because it was not in the road



Maybe. Depends on whether the inside or the outside face of the curb was designated as the OB line.


but this disc was hanging underneath the curb. Is it ob? Also I have seen one roll into the ditch and fall into the bottom. Would this be ob?



See "Disc below the playing surface" in the Rules Q & A (http://www.pdga.com/rules/qa.php).

A disc resting in a tree for 15 seconds before falling shoud be declared OB, yet that is clearly not the case.



GAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!

A DISC IN A TREE ABOVE 2 METERS IN NOT O.B.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It just happens to be a 1 stroke penalty. It's not OB. It's not OB. It's not OB. It's not OB. It's not OB. It's not OB. It's not OB. It's not OB. It's not OB. It's not OB. It's not OB. It's not OB. It's not OB. It's not OB. It's not OB.



Thanks, Rhett. I feel much better now. :D

Fore, the inside edge of the curb is the ob line. The disc that was hanging over the drop in the drainage disc would have had part of the disc inbounds if the disc was on top of the curb.