Easy Questions for Ams

A question for Am players:

Imagine a world where ALL tournaments had no payout. Only a small first
place trophy to the winner of each division.

No CTPs. No player packs. No prizes. No lunch.

You DO still get everything else you get today. The tournament,
the scoring, the points tracked, the ratings tracked, etc.

Would you play in such a 1-day C-Tier?
If so, how much in entry fee would you pay?

Would you play in such a 2-day B-Tier?
If so, how much in entry fee would you pay?

Would you play in such a 2 or 3-day A-Tier?
If so, how much in entry fee would you pay?

If you are asking where would the entry fees go, feel free to
qualify your answer, such as "I'd pay $20 if it's going to
charity, and I'd pay $40 if it's going to the local club and
the PDGA, and I'd pay $15 if it's going into the pocket of
the TD".

Finally, to give your answers perspective, how many tournaments
do you play per year, and how many would you play under this
new structure (your suggested fees and no payout)?

Thank you.

[bruce_brakel]

I'd pay $5 to $10 regardless of the tier or number of days. It is what I charge when I run this format as an option. It is what it costs the TD.

But I'd only be interested in this option if the tournament were sanctioned by the PDGA or part of a series I cared about. Ratings and points are what I'm playing for at that price.

I ran three tournaments last year that had a $5-$10 no-payout entry fee option. I gave the players their choice to play for prizes for ordinary entry fees or play for points, ctps and trophies only for cheap. I played in two of them. It actually felt different not to have a $30 or $40 entry fee and a stack of prizes hanging in the balance. Felt good to be running it though. That's why I'm certain its the right thing for me to be doing.

I'm really hoping that with the glut of high entry fee tournaments being offered in south-east Michigan this year, my $10 B-tier option [net after players pack] will be a big hit.

[MARKB]

If it were sanctioned the most I would pay is 10$ for the ratings and points... other then that I probably would travel the extra mile to a tournament with a payout.

[rhett]

I'd rather pay $20 for points, lunch, two rounds of golf, a tourney stamped disc and or mini player pack, and trophies to top three.

[tdwriter]

But that wasn't the question, Rhett ;)

$5-$10 and I wouldn't drive two to four hours for it either.

Last year I played 16 events or so, but only three or four PDGA. But would you hold the Am Worlds, charge a low entry fee and offer really nice trophies?

If this became the norm, I'd probably just play locally. I'd take my kids, if they still were interested, to events and watch them play.

Luckily, there are alternatives. :DrWc :cool:

[bruce_brakel]

It's refreshing to see players admit that what they like about the PDGA format is the "gambling for prizes" aspect.

Here's a somewhat harder question: Suppose at my $5 points and trophies only tournament you know that there is an amateur unassociated with the tournament process who is organizing a cash payout optional sidegame in your amateur division. For $25 extra you can play for cash just like a Silver or Bronze pro with a graduated payout. No added cash but 100% payout of whatever he collects to the top 40% of those who get in.

Now how far are you driving?

[neonnoodle]

I wish they had that option for Pros. As an 973 Open Player I'd gladly play just for the points, ratings and bragging rights. I'd be willing to pay up to $20 for that, and I'd be willing to see 15% of that go straight into the TDs pocket for the effort, particularly if they provided lunch and got some sponsorship together in players packages.

I'm figuring that is a minority pro position, it's also likely a minority am position (whatever than means). We just haven't been conditioned for such an option.

Bruce, you ever considered moving to the MADC Region? :cool:

[bruce_brakel]

I wish they had that option for Pros. As an 973 Open Player I'd gladly play just for the points, ratings and bragging rights. I'd be willing to pay up to $20 for that, and I'd be willing to see 15% of that go straight into the TDs pocket for the effort, particularly if they provided lunch and got some sponsorship together in players packages.

I'm figuring that is a minority pro position, it's also likely a minority am position (whatever than means). We just haven't been conditioned for such an option.

Bruce, you ever considered moving to the MADC Region? :cool:



So you could punch me in the nose personally? If I ever play there, it will be under an assumed name. :D

I'm offering a trophy-only option in the Sunday open division at both my MDGOs thinking that maybe one intermediate might take advantage of the opportunity to shoot with the pros. If one does, I'll let him pick a pro he wants to shoot with in the morning.

I'm not aware of any amateur organizing a cash sidebet for ams paying the trophy-only fee at the tournaments where that is an option, but if I here about it I'll give him a little encouragement.

This may be the last year that I do payout tournaments in Michigan. Every time I get a chance to talk privately to law enforcement types about what we do they are of the opinion that it is illegal under our state laws.

I'm offering a trophy-only option in the Sunday open division at both my MDGOs thinking that maybe one intermediate might take advantage of the opportunity to shoot with the pros. If one does, I'll let him pick a pro he wants to shoot with in the morning.



Could I do an auction before I have to pick? The Pro who pays me the most won't have to play with me! ;)

I'm really hoping that with the glut of high entry fee tournaments being offered in south-east Michigan this year, my $10 B-tier option [net after players pack] will be a big hit.


Where is this B-Tier? I'm in if I can make it! :)

I think this is an awsome idea. I only play for the competition and for the love of the sport. I'd gladly pay $5 or $10 for a sanctioned tourney where I only recieved points/ratings (and trophey for top 3 if well attended).
I go to about 15 tourneys a year, about 5 or 6 sanctioned.
The only thing keeping me from going to 30 a year is money.

Most of the time, I'm a little disappointed in the merch I receive as prize anyway.
Let me buy my own merch and keep tourney prices down!!! :)

I also think the idea of a "sidebet" for ams is clever and probably a good idea to keep everyone happy. If I was at my home course, and felt like I could play well & had the money, I might be interested in participating.

[neonnoodle]

So you could punch me in the nose personally? If I ever play there, it will be under an assumed name.




This may be the last year that I do payout tournaments in Michigan. Every time I get a chance to talk privately to law enforcement types about what we do they are of the opinion that it is illegal under our state laws.



If you do, I'll bring my Sparky Home DNA Tester Kit and a pair of handcuffs incase those law types show up...

[vwkeepontruckin]

I'd rather pay $20 for points, lunch, two rounds of golf, a tourney stamped disc and or mini player pack, and trophies to top three.



I second that!

Every time I get a chance to talk privately to law enforcement types about what we do they are of the opinion that it is illegal under our state laws.



"law enforcement types". As in cops? Or lawyers and judges?

If it's the former, I wouldn't worry about it. I'm of the opinion that most cops don't know the law any better than most disc golfers know the rule book.

If it's the former, I wouldn't worry about it. I'm of the opinion that most cops don't know the law any better than most disc golfers know the rule book.




Funny...but scary. :)

[Lyle O Ross]

I'd rather pay $20 for points, lunch, two rounds of golf, a tourney stamped disc and or mini player pack, and trophies to top three.



I second that!



I third it.

However, in light of the question:

I'd pay 10 for a C teir, 15 for a B teir, 20 for an A teir, i.e., I would play in all three events. The problem is that I don't have a good enough feel for where the money goes. I am happy to pay the costs of covering the points and maintenance of my rating within the PDGA. (I feel that my membership dues should be used to maintain the PDGA in all other aspects but points and player ratings) After that I am a proponent of paying TDs for what they do. I have never been a TD but I have run other similar events. It is a lot of work and TDs, in most cases, are working for significantly less than minimum wage. Basically, I think the lion's share of the money I am willing to pay should go to the TD.

After that I might be willing to add on for charity but I am very selective about the charities I give to and prefer to donate directly. I might be willing to donate through disc golf, not because I want to give this way, but because of the reputation it builds for us.

[neonnoodle]

PDGA Sanctioning Fee - Between $30-$80
Insurance - $50
PDGA Fees - $2 per player
Local Fees - Between $0-$4
Regional Fees - Between $0-$5
Park Closing Fee - Between $0-$150
Event Expenses - Between $0-$1,500

So for a minimal event with 90 players - $260
Maximal event - $2,700

So for a bare bones event with 90 players fees come to about $2.88 per player.

For a World Class Championship with 90 players fees come to about $30.

So I could see a bare bones event, no players package, no trophies, no payouts, points and ratings only event charging $5 to $10

And a full on event, major players package, trophies, lunch, players party, ctps, door prizes, points and ratings only event charging between $40 to $75.

This would from cover expenses to make 15% permitted by the PDGA commission for the TD events.

Stretch this to multi-course, field size over 200 players and I can see an entry fee easily around $100 or more.

So if you are paying less than that for such an event, you can be confident that the TD is kicking arse and taking names. (i.e. Chris Himing, Lowe and Rothstein, Discraft).

I would note that it is far harder to hide disparities in entry fee to payout at event that return most or all of the value in the form of players packages, ctps, door prizes and trophies. When you payout to only a percentage of the players it is generally tougher to know what happened, though not an indication of impropriety necessarily.

Of course sponsorship needs to be figured in here as well, which would lessen the burden on the players and increase the value of the event.

[tdwriter]

Bruce, I'd probably come and jump in on the side action. You're quite the wiley fellow with these scenarios :D

Some of us already to this, just on a much smaller scale. We're poor down here in the south, y'all know! :( rWc :cool:

[bruce_brakel]

Every time I get a chance to talk privately to law enforcement types about what we do they are of the opinion that it is illegal under our state laws.



"law enforcement types". As in cops? Or lawyers and judges?

If it's the former, I wouldn't worry about it. I'm of the opinion that most cops don't know the law any better than most disc golfers know the rule book.



Prosecutors, assistant a.g.s and judges.

Never take a legal opinion from a cop. Just ask for a lawyer and then shut up until the lawyer gets there.

Never take a legal opinion from a cop. Just ask for a lawyer and then shut up until the lawyer gets there.



Sage advice, even if it does come from an attorney. :)

[neonnoodle]

A Lawyer, a Gnome and a Disc Golfer walk into a bar...

[orotter]

I'd happily play for the competition if it showed up but I would probably be alone. AMs down here expect PAYOUT, ain't that a laugh. It is, however, a fact of life. Just make sure you are very clear with players about their expectations for a tournament. I had a player busting my chops for not making big payouts to the Int. AM division that payed a $20 entry fee and got a T-shirt and a disc in their player pack. :mad:

[circle_2]

Didja bust his chops back, Matt? :o
(I hope you told him to move/grow up...)
Visiting KC anytime soon? We miss ya up here!
Doc

[orotter]

Nah, Doc I just told him to run a tournament and make sure I have nothing to do with the finances. I need my credit rating. No KC plans in the near future. When I retire the wide open will be on my list of must plays for sure. Let me know if you ever swing through Alabama or Tennessee.

[neonnoodle]

Matt,

I suspect that we "Play for the Love of the Game" folk are not the minority we think we are. I do not really trust the polls or overall impressions given by folks that visit this website as indicative of the general disc golf demographic. I’m not saying that players that want $75 entry fees and payouts to the top 25% with no event amenities don’t exist. Particularly when our sport has tended to cater to and recruit that type of player for years now; with no real option for the “Play for the Love of the Game” competition or players within our competitive structure. But even with that, if I had to guess, I figure there are at least 25 to 40% of all current PDGA members play not for the chance to win their buddies money (in cash or prizes) but as a pure golf act of man (person) against course (him/herself).

Promotion of better and bigger players packages I see as a move towards providing for these kinds of competitors. I mean do we really need 3 or 4 divisions of verifiably comparable skill level all playing for “Profit” at the same event while providing no option at all for the folks that would simply like to “Play for the Love of the Game”? Isn’t one enough?

I really like Bruce’s approach with the opt out of playing for your buddies entry fee, but I’d prefer to just have a different choice in division, one based on a completely different concept and motivation for coming out and competing. Yes, a True Amateur Class.

Nick