Ratings Based Events - Am Payouts

Just wondering how people feel about giving Am players just players packages with the top 3 receiving trophys only vs. the current practice of rewarding the top ams with lots of merchandise
:p

[bruce_brakel]

Speaking for all ams everywhere, just be sure to tell us in advance on the flyer, on your website and everywhere else. Don't surprise us at the end of the tournament with no payout after having given us a bag of useless crap in the morning. :mad: Better yet, do surprise us. I don't play tournaments in New Jersey and reading about it here the next week will be entertaining. :D

Bruce, as a lawyer , shouldn't you keep an open mind???

How many times have you gotten a bag of "useless crap" in the evening after the tournament??? And how many times have new players gone home with...nothing? Allright, allright, I've seen some people getting free PDGA stickers as prizes, sometimes even a mini. I have actually gotten some candlewax plastic myself in the past.

Plus, nobody is saying that Am packages and trophys should be the way things will be in the future. Just being curious.

See, you played mostly intermediate in the past when you had about a 920 rating, and you did very well, hence I believe that you have not received a bag of "useless crap" in a long time. In the past few years you have probably gotten a lot of usefull stuff. However, some players that you beat over and over - well, some of them went probably home with not too much...

And maybe, just maybe, the players packages that some TD's put together are not just "useless crap". Because if they are, and rom yoour comment I assume that you have gotten some in the past, you should complain to the TD about that.

All I know is that you can get great Am packages at tournaments out where I live.. :D

[rhett]

You need more choices. I like the idea of low entry trophy only tourneys for ams. I do not like the idea of $65 entry fees for player packs and trophies. Unless it is for Worlds.

[johnbiscoe]

i agree completely with rhett.

[prairie_dawg]

You need more choices. I like the idea of low entry trophy only tourneys for ams. I do not like the idea of $65 entry fees for player packs and trophies. Unless it is for Worlds.



World's is much more expensive than $65. Our B-tier in Austin has A1 entry at $53 and A3 and Jr entry at $33. Those seem a little high, but it fills every year. What can you say when they keep coming back.

Ray :cool:

[bruce_brakel]

Let me start out by saying something nice before I rip you a new hole: I like your kokapelli avatar.


Bruce, as a lawyer , shouldn't you keep an open mind???


The question is a nonsequitur. Lawyers are no more open minded than anyone else. Besides, the evidence is in and it's time to close our minds and offer up a verdict. High entry fee, flat payout, with no choice of what I get is the last tournament I'm going to play, unless its Worlds. Most amateurs feel the same way. Believe me, it will be entertaining if you spring this on your players instead of telling them in advance.


How many times have you gotten a bag of "useless crap" in the evening after the tournament???


Very rarely. Most of the TDs who run tournaments I go to either pay out with merch certificates, or at least have decent merch. For some reason virtually every players pack I've ever received has been full of stuff I don't want.


And how many times have new players gone home with...nothing? Allright, allright, I've seen some people getting free PDGA stickers as prizes, sometimes even a mini. I have actually gotten some candlewax plastic myself in the past.


If you have stuff we want, regardless of whether we are new players or old players, we would be happy to buy it, if you would lower your entry fee and quit forcing us to take the stuff you want to get rid of. 95% of the players who go home with nothing started the day by signing up for a division that is not indicated by their player rating. Check the stats at any tournament.


Plus, nobody is saying that Am packages and trophys should be the way things will be in the future.


Hopefully in the future you will get real sponsorship for your pros and quit taking it out of the amateurs. Seriously, when did you ever go to a high school football game where profits on ticket sales and concessions were transferred to the local NFL franchise? If you aren't shifting money from the ams to the pros then you don't need to do the whole forced merch thing.


Just being curious.


Just being straight. Sorry if straight answers hurt. You're asking. I'm answering. Plenty of ams are reading this and saying, "Preach it, brother," so you might as well know.


See, you played mostly intermediate in the past when you had about a 920 rating,

b.s.
and you did very well,

won once
hence I believe that you have not received a bag of "useless crap" in a long time.


I played for six months in 2003 as an intermediate when I had an intermediate rating because the PDGA redefined intermediate to include players at my demonstrated skill level. In 1993 I also played Intermediate. In the ten years in between I mostly played Am Master whenever it was offered, except in 2001 when I was disabled by a back injury. Then I hobbled around with a cane and ran the junior girls thing. I received my most recent bag of useless crap at the last sanctioned tournament I played, one month ago. No slight to Larry; he ran a great tournament with honest payouts and had cool merch for the winners, but I have no use for a D-Banshee, a couple of stickers and a mini.


In the past few years you have probably gotten a lot of usefull stuff.


Useful for the Waterford Junior Girls Club, anyway. Virtually all the stuff I win, I donate to the club. Nothing that is currently in my bag is anything that I've won, so I guess recently I've been donating it all.


However, some players that you beat over and over - well, some of them went probably home with not too much...


I'm weeping now and I've got no kleenex in my office. I'm blowing my nose on my emergency back up tie. Oh, wait: according to the PDGA approximately 95% of those players who went home with nothing were eligible to play recreational but decided to play up. I guess that's their choice. The Waterford Junior Girls Club would like to thank every recreational who is far too proud to play in the rec division.


And maybe, just maybe, the players packages that some TD's put together are not just "useless crap".


At my MDGOs my ams will have a choice between $15 Funny or $10 real. There is not going to be any whining that the player's pack is not worth $10.


Because if they are, and from your comment I assume that you have gotten some in the past, you should complain to the TD about that.


Most of the TDs out there are just mice in mazes and pigeons in boxes. Their behavior is conditioned by the contingencies inherent in the PDGA system. It is the system that is wrong.


All I know is that you can get great Am packages at tournaments out where I live.. :D



Look, you aked how I felt about high entry fee, no pay out, forced merch tournaments. These are my feelings.

[rhett]

World's is much more expensive than $65.



Hence I would be willing to forgo the payout and just get trophies and player packs. Even if it stayed $100 or went up to $150.

I wince hard at $65 entry fees for am B-Tiers, and at that time I'm very glad my rating stinks and I can play MA2.

[gnduke]

I think I followed most of that.

High entry fees and flat payout do not seem to go together.

High entry fee tournaments seem like they should be for the profiteers.

Flat payouts are for the value conscious players, therefore should be low entry.

A event with an opt-in high dollar payout might work. Isn't that what Bruce says he's been doing ? I'll have to work on a scoring spreadsheet to track that.

Bruce,
you call that rippin' me a new hole? Come on, you gotta do better than that :D

"Look, you aked how I felt about high entry fee, no pay out, forced merch tournaments. These are my feelings.

[/QUOTE]"

Ehhhh, can you point me to the "high entry fee" part I asked you about???
I mean we are amateurs , so I would like to see low entry fees and Am package....at least for Rec and Intermediate...
Would that cause sandbaggers to move up???

Maybe advanced players could cough up a high entry fee and play for the big prizes.

[bruce_brakel]

The high entry fee part is implicit in any PDGA sanctioned event if you are following the entry fee recommendations. To me $40 [advanced, B-tier] is a high entry fee given that the sanctioning fees, insurance and other fixed costs add up to less than $10 per player. If I am looking at that $10 trophy-only fee tournament in West Virginia, versus your trophy-only plus player pack tournament, yours is the one I'm going to say has the high entry fee.

As to causing sandbaggers to move up, there are none to cause to move up. The 910 rated Intermediate is not sandbagging. He is playing in the division determined by his rating. The 870 rated rec player is not sandbagging. He is playing in the division determined by his rating. Anyone who cannot compete with the 910 rated intermediate has an option: play rec. If you can't compete with that you have a rec rating and should just admit it.

[bruce_brakel]

Ahhh, now I see what your problem is. YOU are one of those rec players who plays advanced.

Dude, the sandbaggers are not the problem. Your inability to deal with reality is the problem.

This is reality: You have twelve rounds in the database. 10 of them are rec rounds. One of them is so low it would be an insult to rec players to call it a rec round. There's nothing wrong with loving this game even though you suc at it. That is me for the past 25 years: love the game but play like cow manure. Don't go thinking that the advanced and intermediate divisions are crowded with baggers just because you can't compete there. Don't go thinking that you have to come up with a solution for a problem that doesn't exist.

Here's a solution: you play in the division indicated by your rating. At least once in your life try it, preferably at the next tournament you play. You'll have more fun and maybe win some stuff. This will help you see why so many of the rest of us don't want to play Pioneer Girl formats where everyone wins.

If I'm paying $40 to play I want something for playing well that is more than what the guy got who I just beat in my division by 16 strokes. When I win I want to go home with your money, your car, your women and your food! This is how I feel. :D

Seriously, my brother has started playing rec. He is having way more fun. He, like you, has totally earned the right to play in that division. It is not like he tanked six tournaments to get there. That is how good he is right now. Go play rec and tell people, "I've earned the right to play in this division, and if these guys can't compete they need to move down to junior girls!"

Just wondering how people feel about giving Am players just players packages with the top 3 receiving trophys only vs. the current practice of rewarding the top ams with lots of merchandise



I would prefer an alternative you aren't considering. In AM divisions, I'd like to see a modest player package that includes a t-shirt or a disc for everyone, plastic/prizes to the top finishers, and a trophy only for first place. In my opinion, trophies for second and third place only make sense for major tournaments like Worlds.

Here's a solution: you play in the division indicated by your rating. At least once in your life try it



I thought you checked my tournament results...Now as a lawyer you should have noticed that I did that, but here it is again
http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=3712#White

see, I had fun. Paid 20 bucks, got a shirt, 2 discs, and lunch in the players package. Gave the discs away, still wear the shirt,and ate until I was stuffed. Believe me if there were more tournaments offered like that one that would be great.




You have twelve rounds in the database. 10 of them are rec rounds. One of them is so low it would be an insult to rec players to call it a rec round



Let see....10 + 1 **** I thought that makes 11 What happened to my 12th round??? Or did you mean I only have 11 rounds in the database that are included - that must have been it.




your inability to deal with reality is the problem



Now you got me there...now I am crying - does that make you happy inside,... I am not good enough to play advanced? But somebody has to come in last....and I have it locked up. And I am not complaining. If I want to win stuff, hell yeah, I'll play rec. Or, now here is a radical idea - maybe I just would like to play with players that are a lot better than me. But then again, this may be too radical for you to grasp.

Seriously, i don't care about placing high in rec or playing well in intermediate - that is for people like you, who want to


go home with your money, your car, your women and your food


It looks to me like there are a lot of thing missing in your life. See, I have a car, a wife, I have money, and I have food, gosh, I even have a Swiss passport. The only thing that I don't have is time to play as much as you do. I like to play for the fun of it, and to have a good time, and I want to play with better players. And what is wrong with that again???

Now I could be playing rec, and I would probably do ok. I would get prizes, most likely some candlewax platic that I would give away anyway. But why would I want that? That is something that you want - you want to play within your ratings division. I like to play with players that are much better than me.

But I still think, grasshopper, you just don't get it. And I tried soooo hard to explain it to you. :p

Oh yeah, one more thing I forgot to tell you, this will make you really proud of me. My first tournament of the season, I shot an event rating of 915 two weeks ago. I am so happy I could cry. Unfortunately there was only one Am division, and I only got one disc as a prize. :D

OK, here is link to the brandnew 2004 ratings guide:
http://www.madisc.org/documents/TD2004ratingseventguide.pdf

Sorry, but don't know how to find it on the PDGA website.

Take a look at it, and give me some constructive feedback on what you think about it. How did you manage entry fees / payout in the past? Was it successful, or were there too many complaints?
What about first place trophys for the winners in purple through silver, and players packages for everyone else? How would the differences in the entry fees be justified? How much in "value" ( percent of entry fee) should winners get as prizes purple through silver?
Do you think the above mentioned document should be followed as is?

Thanks.

[bruce_brakel]

How did you manage entry fees / payout in the past? I usually follow the PDGA entry fees pretty closely to their recomendations. I always pay the amateurs a minimum of 100% at fair retail prices, often without deducting for trophies or sanctioning fees. There is enough profit on the wholesale/retail that those deductions are only needed if you are shifting amateur cash to the pros.

Was it successful, or were there too many complaints? No complaints. Players have no reason to complain if you are open about what you are doing.

What about first place trophys for the winners in purple through silver, and players packages for everyone else? Not sure what you mean. "Players packages" usually refers to the stuff that is given out in advance and you don't know who every one else is in advance.

How would the differences in the entry fees be justified?
Chuck Kennedy has an explanation; you might get it from him. If I was using graduated entry fees I'd just tell them, "The PDGA asks us to follow their schedule of fees. I'm just not rocking the boat for once, o.k.?"

How much in "value" ( percent of entry fee) should winners get as prizes purple through silver? This is determined by the tier standards, but paying amateurs anything less than 100% is pretty cheesy.

Do you think the above mentioned document should be followed as is? I think you should follow it as is. Whenever you don't have an overriding personal value system issue, [and you'll know if you ever do; it's like being in love] just go with the PDGA format when running a PDGA event.

If I were running one of my split-day tournaments as an R-tier this year I'd have one entry fee for Sunday players [gold and silver] and one entry fee for Saturday players [bronze through chartreuse or whatever] because I don't want unrated idiots playing in a "women's" division because the entry fee is cheaper.

Here's something constructive: You might consider excluding adult men from playing in purple and green unless they have a rating that proves they belong there. There will be a few players [maybe 70-80%?] who are totally clueless about the ratings system, and the rec players among them will naturally sign up for the lowest division available. Don't let them. Let the women and juniors have their divisions to themselves unless those men have joined the PDGA and proven that they are purple and green players.

O.k., this is not as constructive but it is funny: my brother Jon had an idea for how we can keep adult unrated men from playing in divisions whose ratings caps indicates that pretty much only women and children belong there: call those divisions, "Brownies," and "Fairies." I think, "Pansies," and "Fairies" would work even better, but might be politically incorrect. How about "Buttercups," and "Pansies"?

[neonnoodle]

I'm guessing that's you Rob. There are results in the MADC Database from a number of RB events. You may want to check them out as to how the payouts turned out in each division. The Jersey Jam is probably the longest running PDGA Ratings Based event, so you have some local experts in Bob Graham and particularly Eddie Nathan. Giving them a call or meeting up with them would probably be a good idea if you want the straight poop on PDGA Ratings Based events.

Nick,
I am just trying to get as much info I can get. As you know, there were some minor issues regarding structure,and maybe payouts at the Jam last year. I hope to get good info out of this thread to discuss with the other Jersey Devils. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[ck34]

call those divisions, "Brownies," and "Fairies." I think, "Pansies," and "Fairies" would work even better, but might be politically incorrect. How about "Buttercups," and "Pansies"?




We thought about using Pink for the name of the Purple division. However, our founder Steady Ed's final rating was 736.

[neonnoodle]

Bruce, I'm a little surprised that you would endorse belittling names for divisions that have the greatest potential for growth in our sport. Particularly with you yourself not being in possession of the most impressive of ratings.

But is it not impressive? Are not the ratings of folks with ratings below 850 impressive?

Consider your own situation and the demands of your life and work, your children, your volunteer work. Isn't it remarkable that you are able to play at even the level you do now? Should we figure out a derogatory name for your achievement? "NGE- Not Good Enough", or "SL - Slightly Lazy", or "PSC - Permanent Sixth Class". Is that accurate to your achievement and the achievement of the players in your division?

How about the kids, women and men we so very much want to welcome into our communities? Do you think that they want to be called such names (kids in particular)?

[bruce_brakel]

Bruce, I'm a little surprised that you would endorse belittling names for divisions that have the greatest potential for growth in our sport. Particularly with you yourself not being in possession of the most impressive of ratings.

But is it not impressive? Are not the ratings of folks with ratings below 850 impressive?

Consider your own situation and the demands of your life and work, your children, your volunteer work. Isn't it remarkable that you are able to play at even the level you do now? Should we figure out a derogatory name for your achievement? "NGE- Not Good Enough", or "SL - Slightly Lazy", or "PSC - Permanent Sixth Class". Is that accurate to your achievement and the achievement of the players in your division?

How about the kids, women and men we so very much want to welcome into our communities? Do you think that they want to be called such names (kids in particular)?



I fell in the pond today, Nick. When I got out my boots and socks had a better sense of humor than you do.

The women and children within shouting distance right now are all fine with femmy names for their divisions. Kira would like her division to be Sunflowers, but she's hoping to move up to Buttercups by Worlds!

My point is that currently the Daisies and Buttercups have protected divisions, and other than a few dead octogenarians, there are no male adult disc golfers that belong there. We need to make sure that adult male disc golfers stay out of those divisions if they have not proven that they belong there.

Most adult men will have no problem playing "Green" but they'd think twice about playing "Pansies," "Daisies," or "Buttercups."

What I would like to see is a entry division in the R-tier system below which unrated men may not enter. The division corresponding to 825-875 would seem appropriate.

[neonnoodle]

My point is that currently the Daisies and Buttercups have protected divisions, and other than a few dead octogenarians, there are no male adult disc golfers that belong there. We need to make sure that adult male disc golfers stay out of those divisions if they have not proven that they belong there.



I agree with this, the rest is needless. TDs should offer an open division for all unrated players or non-PDGA players. It's the only way to be sure. Trying to shame them into playing up is not something I would endorse or encourage. Particularly in light of the fact that some disc golfers just never will improve beyond those levels.

[ck34]

Make sure you know the numbers before making pronouncements about who should be in what rating bracket. Here are the numbers from our master rating file which doesn't exclude non-current members. There are lots of males of all ages both below 825 and 775. All players with ratings in Green division from 775-824 and Purple division under 775 each comprise about 8% of rated players.

<table border="1"><tr><td> </td><td>< 775</td><td>775-824</td><td>< 825
</td></tr><tr><td>M <19</td><td>64</td><td>35</td><td>99
</td></tr><tr><td>F <19</td><td>24</td><td>2</td><td>26
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td></td><td></td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>M 19-39</td><td>162</td><td>402</td><td>564
</td></tr><tr><td>F 19-39</td><td>214</td><td>118</td><td>332
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td></td><td></td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>M 40+</td><td>140</td><td>284</td><td>424
</td></tr><tr><td>F 40+</td><td>110</td><td>50</td><td>160
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td></td><td></td><td>
</td></tr><tr><td>M Total</td><td>366</td><td>721</td><td>1087
</td></tr><tr><td>F Total</td><td>348</td><td>170</td><td>518
</td></tr><tr><td> </tr></td></table>

[neonnoodle]

Bruce, in light of Chuck's revelation, perhaps you should consider using the colors offered without socio-sexist-superiority comment?