course design philosophy questions

Chuck, Houck, et al...

Looking to redesign a course, and I'm seeking input from the pros. There's really not room to do much, but we may be able to work in one or two par-4's. Here are my thoughts, please critique:

We don't have a ton of room, or a plethora of natural obstacles to work with. This is a desert course without much elevation, and very few tall trees to work with.

We're considering artificial OB to increase the challenge. We already have one "triple mando", we'll likely keep that.

Our primary goal is to make a challenging layout that is playable for tournaments. This means eliminating interfering fairways as much as posssible, and having ample room between basket and the next tee while maintaining an 18 hole course. -- We could make a really nice 12 hole course, but I've been voted down on that thought.

We want to continue to support rec/beginning players with short tees. In my mind, we should design the pro tees first, then fill in the Am tees afterwards. I'd like the difficulty on the Am tees to parallel the difficulty on the pro tees.

I'd like a decent balance of challenge within our par-3s. I want a roughly equal number of "easy" and "difficult" par-3s.

I'm not sure we're ready to really push it out to SSA lenghts (even if we have the room) but maybe close. I'm considering using average pro scores (or average advance/pro scores) to determine pars and difficulty within the par values. In my mind, a good challenging course would have last cash in Open and/or winning score in advanced close to par.

For the short tees, I'd like the equivalent scores for Intermediate/Rec.

I'll post hole-by-hole stats from our ice bowl layout. This setup is a starting point for our redesign.

[ck34]

In my mind, a good challenging course would have last cash in Open and/or winning score in advanced close to par.



It's interesting because there have been serious discussions that perhaps setting Pro Par based on a 970 player rating might be the right choice since 970 is approximately the break point between Am & Pro. So, SSA & WCP would remain based on a 1000 rating for stats purposes and course ratings. But, the Pro Par posted for tee signs would be based on 970. It would reduce the number of potential Par 2s. But a "downside" (depending on your point of view) would be more players shooting farther under par.

[ck34]

I'd like a decent balance of challenge within our par-3s. I want a roughly equal number of "easy" and "difficult" par-3s.




It's an interesting challenge to make tough par 3s because it seems somewhat uncomfortable to do them, especially on more open courses. For a hole to average say 3.3, especially without lots of OB or trees, it means 7 players get par 3s and 3 players would "blow it" with bogeys. It bothers people psychologically compared with designing hoels at 2.7 or 3.7 averages where there's a bonus earned with 3 players getting birdies and 7 getting pars.

[slo]

What is a "triple mando;" is the third mandy going under something?
Without a lot of natural obstacles, would the par 4's be quite long, or is that where the OB comes into play?

Ok, here we are. This was an ice bowl where the players could buy up to 3 mulligans per round. Hole 6.5 is unreachable, and probably a "bad" (too easy) par-4. 10c is around 400', so it's reachable by the big-arms, but lots of OB. #3 is short, but there's a clown's mouth. Without the Mulligans it's probably a 90% deuce-or-bogey hole.




<table border="1"><tr><td></td><td></td><td>1</td><td>2</td><td>3</td><td>4</td><td>5</td><td>6.5</td><td>8</td><td>9</td><td>9a</td><td>out</td><td>9b</td><td>10c</td><td>11</td><td>12</td><td>13</td><td>15</td><td>16</td><td>17</td><td>18</td><td>out</td><td>total
</td></tr><tr><td>Open (calm)</td><td>Average</td><td>2.4</td><td>2.8</td><td>2.4</td><td>2.7</td><td>2.8</td><td>3.3</td><td>2.8</td><td>3.0</td><td>3.2</td><td>25.4</td><td>3.1</td><td>3.4</td><td>2.9</td><td>2.4</td><td>3.0</td><td>2.9</td><td>2.5</td><td>2.4</td><td>2.8</td><td>25.4</td><td>50.8
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>2s</td><td>11</td><td>5</td><td>11</td><td>8</td><td>4</td><td>0</td><td>5</td><td>2</td><td>2</td><td>13</td><td>4</td><td>1</td><td>3</td><td>10</td><td>1</td><td>3</td><td>9</td><td>11</td><td>6</td><td>14</td><td>14
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>3s</td><td>7</td><td>11</td><td>7</td><td>8</td><td>14</td><td>13</td><td>11</td><td>14</td><td>12</td><td>0</td><td>10</td><td>10</td><td>13</td><td>8</td><td>16</td><td>14</td><td>9</td><td>7</td><td>10</td><td>2</td><td>1
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>4s</td><td>0</td><td>2</td><td>0</td><td>2</td><td>0</td><td>5</td><td>2</td><td>2</td><td>3</td><td>5</td><td>3</td><td>6</td><td>2</td><td>0</td><td>1</td><td>1</td><td>0</td><td>0</td><td>2</td><td>2</td><td>3
</td></tr><tr><td>Open (wind)</td><td>Average</td><td>3.1</td><td>2.8</td><td>2.7</td><td>2.9</td><td>2.7</td><td>3.7</td><td>2.9</td><td>3.1</td><td>2.8</td><td>26.6</td><td>2.8</td><td>3.3</td><td>2.9</td><td>2.9</td><td>3.2</td><td>3.2</td><td>2.7</td><td>2.4</td><td>2.9</td><td>26.3</td><td>52.9
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>2s</td><td>2</td><td>5</td><td>8</td><td>6</td><td>6</td><td>0</td><td>4</td><td>1</td><td>5</td><td>10</td><td>4</td><td>1</td><td>4</td><td>4</td><td>2</td><td>1</td><td>7</td><td>11</td><td>6</td><td>10</td><td>11
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>3s</td><td>13</td><td>12</td><td>8</td><td>9</td><td>12</td><td>8</td><td>12</td><td>14</td><td>11</td><td>1</td><td>14</td><td>13</td><td>11</td><td>12</td><td>12</td><td>14</td><td>10</td><td>7</td><td>8</td><td>2</td><td>1
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>4s</td><td>3</td><td>1</td><td>1</td><td>2</td><td>0</td><td>8</td><td>2</td><td>3</td><td>2</td><td>7</td><td>0</td><td>2</td><td>3</td><td>2</td><td>2</td><td>2</td><td>1</td><td>0</td><td>3</td><td>6</td><td>6
</td></tr><tr><td>Master (calm)</td><td>Average</td><td>3.0</td><td>3.0</td><td>2.0</td><td>3.0</td><td>3.7</td><td>3.7</td><td>3.0</td><td>3.7</td><td>3.3</td><td>28.3</td><td>3.3</td><td>3.3</td><td>3.3</td><td>2.7</td><td>3.7</td><td>3.0</td><td>2.7</td><td>2.3</td><td>3.0</td><td>27.3</td><td>55.7
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>2s</td><td>1</td><td>0</td><td>3</td><td>0</td><td>0</td><td>0</td><td>1</td><td>0</td><td>0</td><td>1</td><td>0</td><td>0</td><td>0</td><td>1</td><td>0</td><td>0</td><td>1</td><td>2</td><td>0</td><td>1</td><td>1
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>3s</td><td>1</td><td>3</td><td>0</td><td>3</td><td>1</td><td>1</td><td>1</td><td>1</td><td>2</td><td>0</td><td>2</td><td>2</td><td>2</td><td>2</td><td>1</td><td>3</td><td>2</td><td>1</td><td>3</td><td>0</td><td>0
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>4s</td><td>1</td><td>0</td><td>0</td><td>0</td><td>2</td><td>2</td><td>1</td><td>2</td><td>1</td><td>2</td><td>1</td><td>1</td><td>1</td><td>0</td><td>2</td><td>0</td><td>0</td><td>0</td><td>0</td><td>2</td><td>2
</td></tr><tr><td>Master (wind)</td><td>Average</td><td>3.0</td><td>2.7</td><td>2.7</td><td>3.0</td><td>3.3</td><td>4.0</td><td>3.0</td><td>3.3</td><td>2.7</td><td>27.7</td><td>3.0</td><td>4.0</td><td>3.3</td><td>3.0</td><td>4.0</td><td>3.0</td><td>3.7</td><td>3.3</td><td>3.3</td><td>27.3</td><td>55.7
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>2s</td><td>0</td><td>2</td><td>1</td><td>0</td><td>0</td><td>0</td><td>0</td><td>0</td><td>1</td><td>1</td><td>1</td><td>0</td><td>0</td><td>0</td><td>0</td><td>0</td><td>0</td><td>0</td><td>0</td><td>1</td><td>1
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>3s</td><td>3</td><td>0</td><td>2</td><td>3</td><td>2</td><td>1</td><td>3</td><td>2</td><td>2</td><td>0</td><td>1</td><td>1</td><td>2</td><td>3</td><td>0</td><td>3</td><td>1</td><td>2</td><td>2</td><td>0</td><td>0
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>4s</td><td>0</td><td>1</td><td>0</td><td>0</td><td>1</td><td>1</td><td>0</td><td>1</td><td>0</td><td>2</td><td>1</td><td>1</td><td>1</td><td>0</td><td>3</td><td>0</td><td>2</td><td>1</td><td>1</td><td>2</td><td>2
</td></tr><tr><td>Advanced (calm)</td><td>Average</td><td>2.8</td><td>2.9</td><td>2.9</td><td>3.0</td><td>3.0</td><td>3.5</td><td>3.3</td><td>3.3</td><td>3.2</td><td>28.0</td><td>3.1</td><td>3.3</td><td>3.1</td><td>2.9</td><td>3.0</td><td>3.0</td><td>2.8</td><td>2.5</td><td>2.7</td><td>24.7</td><td>52.7
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>2s</td><td>2</td><td>2</td><td>4</td><td>1</td><td>1</td><td>0</td><td>2</td><td>1</td><td>2</td><td>1</td><td>2</td><td>1</td><td>1</td><td>1</td><td>1</td><td>1</td><td>4</td><td>7</td><td>5</td><td>9</td><td>7
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>3s</td><td>11</td><td>10</td><td>7</td><td>11</td><td>11</td><td>6</td><td>5</td><td>8</td><td>8</td><td>4</td><td>9</td><td>9</td><td>10</td><td>12</td><td>11</td><td>11</td><td>8</td><td>6</td><td>7</td><td>1</td><td>2
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>4s</td><td>0</td><td>1</td><td>1</td><td>1</td><td>1</td><td>7</td><td>6</td><td>3</td><td>2</td><td>8</td><td>1</td><td>2</td><td>2</td><td>0</td><td>1</td><td>1</td><td>1</td><td>0</td><td>1</td><td>3</td><td>4
</td></tr><tr><td>Advanced (wind)</td><td>Average</td><td>3.3</td><td>3.2</td><td>2.9</td><td>3.0</td><td>3.0</td><td>3.9</td><td>3.2</td><td>3.3</td><td>3.1</td><td>28.9</td><td>2.9</td><td>3.5</td><td>3.4</td><td>2.8</td><td>3.3</td><td>3.4</td><td>2.8</td><td>2.8</td><td>3.2</td><td>26.3</td><td>55.2
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>2s</td><td>1</td><td>0</td><td>5</td><td>2</td><td>0</td><td>0</td><td>1</td><td>0</td><td>1</td><td>1</td><td>2</td><td>1</td><td>0</td><td>3</td><td>0</td><td>0</td><td>3</td><td>3</td><td>2</td><td>6</td><td>2
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>3s</td><td>9</td><td>10</td><td>4</td><td>9</td><td>13</td><td>1</td><td>10</td><td>10</td><td>10</td><td>1</td><td>10</td><td>6</td><td>8</td><td>9</td><td>9</td><td>8</td><td>9</td><td>10</td><td>7</td><td>0</td><td>2
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>4s</td><td>1</td><td>3</td><td>4</td><td>2</td><td>0</td><td>12</td><td>1</td><td>2</td><td>2</td><td>11</td><td>1</td><td>4</td><td>5</td><td>1</td><td>4</td><td>5</td><td>1</td><td>0</td><td>4</td><td>7</td><td>9
</td></tr><tr><td>Open (combined)</td><td>Average</td><td>2.7</td><td>2.8</td><td>2.6</td><td>2.8</td><td>2.7</td><td>3.5</td><td>2.9</td><td>3.1</td><td>3.0</td><td>26.0</td><td>2.9</td><td>3.3</td><td>2.9</td><td>2.7</td><td>3.1</td><td>3.1</td><td>2.6</td><td>2.4</td><td>2.9</td><td>25.9</td><td>51.9
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>2s</td><td>13</td><td>10</td><td>19</td><td>14</td><td>10</td><td>0</td><td>9</td><td>3</td><td>7</td><td>23</td><td>8</td><td>2</td><td>7</td><td>14</td><td>3</td><td>4</td><td>16</td><td>22</td><td>12</td><td>24</td><td>25
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>3s</td><td>20</td><td>23</td><td>15</td><td>17</td><td>26</td><td>21</td><td>23</td><td>28</td><td>23</td><td>1</td><td>24</td><td>23</td><td>24</td><td>20</td><td>28</td><td>28</td><td>19</td><td>14</td><td>18</td><td>4</td><td>2
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>4s</td><td>3</td><td>3</td><td>1</td><td>4</td><td>0</td><td>13</td><td>4</td><td>5</td><td>5</td><td>12</td><td>3</td><td>8</td><td>5</td><td>2</td><td>3</td><td>3</td><td>1</td><td>0</td><td>5</td><td>8</td><td>9
</td></tr><tr><td>Master (combined)</td><td>Average</td><td>3.2</td><td>3.3</td><td>3.1</td><td>3.3</td><td>3.3</td><td>3.9</td><td>3.4</td><td>3.6</td><td>3.6</td><td>22.7</td><td>3.4</td><td>3.7</td><td>3.5</td><td>3.3</td><td>3.5</td><td>3.5</td><td>3.1</td><td>2.9</td><td>3.3</td><td>22.5</td><td>44.2
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>2s</td><td>3</td><td>5</td><td>11</td><td>6</td><td>6</td><td>0</td><td>5</td><td>1</td><td>5</td><td>2</td><td>4</td><td>1</td><td>4</td><td>5</td><td>2</td><td>1</td><td>8</td><td>13</td><td>6</td><td>2</td><td>2
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>3s</td><td>14</td><td>15</td><td>8</td><td>12</td><td>13</td><td>9</td><td>13</td><td>15</td><td>13</td><td>0</td><td>16</td><td>15</td><td>13</td><td>14</td><td>13</td><td>17</td><td>12</td><td>8</td><td>11</td><td>0</td><td>0
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>4s</td><td>4</td><td>1</td><td>1</td><td>2</td><td>2</td><td>10</td><td>3</td><td>5</td><td>3</td><td>4</td><td>1</td><td>3</td><td>4</td><td>2</td><td>4</td><td>2</td><td>1</td><td>0</td><td>3</td><td>4</td><td>4
</td></tr><tr><td>Advanced (combined)</td><td>Average</td><td>3.4</td><td>3.4</td><td>3.2</td><td>3.5</td><td>3.5</td><td>4.0</td><td>3.4</td><td>3.7</td><td>3.6</td><td>23.3</td><td>3.5</td><td>3.8</td><td>3.6</td><td>3.3</td><td>3.7</td><td>3.6</td><td>3.3</td><td>3.1</td><td>3.4</td><td>23.0</td><td>45.2
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>2s</td><td>1</td><td>2</td><td>4</td><td>0</td><td>0</td><td>0</td><td>1</td><td>0</td><td>1</td><td>2</td><td>1</td><td>0</td><td>0</td><td>1</td><td>0</td><td>0</td><td>1</td><td>2</td><td>0</td><td>15</td><td>9
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>3s</td><td>4</td><td>3</td><td>2</td><td>6</td><td>3</td><td>2</td><td>4</td><td>3</td><td>4</td><td>5</td><td>3</td><td>3</td><td>4</td><td>5</td><td>1</td><td>6</td><td>3</td><td>3</td><td>5</td><td>1</td><td>4
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>4s</td><td>1</td><td>1</td><td>0</td><td>0</td><td>3</td><td>3</td><td>1</td><td>3</td><td>1</td><td>19</td><td>2</td><td>2</td><td>2</td><td>0</td><td>5</td><td>0</td><td>2</td><td>1</td><td>1</td><td>10</td><td>13
</td></tr><tr><td>All</td><td>Average</td><td>2.6</td><td>2.9</td><td>2.5</td><td>2.8</td><td>3.0</td><td>3.4</td><td>3.0</td><td>3.2</td><td>3.2</td><td>26.7</td><td>3.1</td><td>3.4</td><td>3.0</td><td>2.6</td><td>3.1</td><td>2.9</td><td>2.6</td><td>2.4</td><td>2.8</td><td>25.4</td><td>52.0
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>2s</td><td>17</td><td>17</td><td>34</td><td>20</td><td>16</td><td>0</td><td>15</td><td>4</td><td>13</td><td>27</td><td>13</td><td>3</td><td>11</td><td>20</td><td>5</td><td>5</td><td>25</td><td>37</td><td>18</td><td>41</td><td>36
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>3s</td><td>38</td><td>41</td><td>25</td><td>35</td><td>42</td><td>32</td><td>40</td><td>46</td><td>40</td><td>6</td><td>43</td><td>41</td><td>41</td><td>39</td><td>42</td><td>51</td><td>34</td><td>25</td><td>34</td><td>5</td><td>6
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>4s</td><td>8</td><td>5</td><td>2</td><td>6</td><td>5</td><td>26</td><td>8</td><td>13</td><td>9</td><td>35</td><td>6</td><td>13</td><td>11</td><td>4</td><td>12</td><td>5</td><td>4</td><td>1</td><td>9</td><td>22</td><td>26
</td></tr><tr><td></td><td>other</td><td>5</td><td>5</td><td>7</td><td>7</td><td>5</td><td>10</td><td>5</td><td>5</td><td>6</td><td>0</td><td>6</td><td>11</td><td>5</td><td>5</td><td>9</td><td>7</td><td>5</td><td>5</td><td>7</td><td>0</td><td>0
</td></tr><tr><td></tr></td></table>

Yes, our triple mando has a max height. Think of going through a soccer goal.

The one psuedo-par-4 is about 500' with an ugly shot off the tee (hole 6.5). In the way it was played for this tournament the OB only came into play on a really bad shank, but we can really tighten it up in the redesign.

Yes, the par 4s would have to be quite long. The only one that is close right now is hole 6.5 (we pulled hole 7, and made basket 6 about half way down 7's fairway). We can't make it much longer without starting to interfere with other holes, but we may be able to move it to a more guarded position. Either 4 or 13 can also go long (they have parallel fairways with room behind them).

[johnbiscoe]

there have been serious discussions that perhaps setting Pro Par based on a 970 player rating might be the right choice since 970 is approximately the break point between Am & Pro. So, SSA & WCP would remain based on a 1000 rating for stats purposes and course ratings. But, the Pro Par posted for tee signs would be based on 970.



chuck, do you have avg driving distance data for 970ish players? i feel 970 is approx the right point for setting par and would like to do some comparisons. i am of the opinion that using ssa 970 to set par and using shots to close range +2 can POSSIBLY be reconciled (of course, as jim says close range on a wide open hole is 200 ft +).

[ck34]

We have course design guidleines for Blue tees (950) and Gold tees (1000). We're suggesting that these continue for design purposes. However, when the Par for tee signs is determined, you could use the designation Pro Par and it would be based on the calculated scoring averages for a hypothetical 970 player to kind of split the difference. There would be nothing wrong with using Gold Par (WCP) based on 1000 for true Gold designed tees like Winthrop or specifying the Blue Par on Blue tees if so designed. However, using Pro Par would make more sense on older courses where the hole lengths were determined for "pros" but not truly honed in on the Gold or Blue level players which we didn't have at the time.

[johnbiscoe]

sorry, i didn't make myself sufficiently clear. i remember (at least i think i do) you at some point quoting avg driving distance for gold players as lying around 380. (i think you measured it at worlds one year??) is there a similar figure for the 950/blue player which i can use to approximate one for a 970 player? my feeling is that for a 970 player it would lie at or slightly under 350. do you feel this is a reasonable guesstimate?

[ck34]

Here's the link to the driving distances. I would guess that using the top Advanced M1O data would be closest. The average is 116 yds but you want to allow more than 50% to reach a distance so 320-325' is probably a better guide.

http://www.circularproductions.com/drivinglengths.htm

[Moderator005]

We're considering artificial OB to increase the challenge. We already have one "triple mando", we'll likely keep that.




There once was a time when mandatories were only used when a safety hazard was present. Mandatories were severely frowned upon, and used only as a last ditch effort when all alternate course design efforts were exhausted.

It's a shame that the USDGC, through its use of a "clown's mouth triple mando" has made the use of mandatories in vogue again. Because of its use at this high-profile event I'm afraid that now courses all over the country are going to start featuring mandos.

I know you said that space at your course was limited, but please keep in mind what mandatories were originally designed for. Furthermore, not everyone enjoys playing gimmicky "clowns-mouth" type holes.

[johnbiscoe]

generally i hate mandos too, but jeff and i are from the east where obstacles abound. having played just a bit of desert golf it seems to me that mandos could be something of a necessary evil to make up to a degree for lack of obstacles. imo the problem with mandos and artificial ob for everyday play is getting the hackers to respect them.

[keithjohnson]

[/QUOTE]
It's a shame that the USDGC, through its use of a "clown's mouth triple mando" has made the use of mandatories in vogue again. Because of its use at this high-profile event I'm afraid that now courses all over the country are going to start featuring mandos.

I know you said that space at your course was limited, but please keep in mind what mandatories were originally designed for. Furthermore, not everyone enjoys playing gimmicky "clowns-mouth" type holes.

[/QUOTE]


the tucson hole was that way BEFORE the usdgc existed....unfornuately even all the "well designed"(20 years ago) holes almost no one throws the intended routes because even the beginners can throw OVER the trees so on the "b" course there are a few more challenging holes and the triple mandy is on the "b" course not the ones "most" recs play

[rick_bays]

the tucson hole was that way BEFORE the usdgc existed....unfornuately even all the "well designed"(20 years ago) holes almost no one throws the intended routes because even the beginners can throw OVER the trees so on the "b" course there are a few more challenging holes and the triple mandy is on the "b" course not the ones "most" recs play



I don't recall any holes with a triple mandy... which hole is it?

[keithjohnson]

3 on the "b" course....pvc pipe across 2 trees about 15 ft off the ground...hole length about 240-250

[johnrhouck]

Jim,

Nice job providing all the scores. Obviously you have a lot of holes in the dreaded 2.8 to 3.2 range, and a bunch more that are very close. The advanced guys especially had pretty boring scores. At least you did have a bit of a spread, not just 2's and 3's on every hole.

As for artificial OB, I'm not a big fan. We do use some in San Saba, mostly to separate fairways, to keep people out of dangerous or unmaintained areas, or to mark creeks that are sometimes dry. In a couple cases, like 18 on the Colorado River course, the OB is mostly to add strategy to the hole.

In cases where the OB is "gratuitous" (as opposed to for safety) I try to make sure the fairways are wide enough that you should only go OB if you make a bad shot. One thing you might look at is making holes where it's advantageous to be close to OB -- the closer you are to OB, the shorter or more open is your upshot. Again, make sure the fairway is plenty wide, so that anyone who goes OB can only blame himself for going for it and missing.

By the way I just now saw your post, and only because I happened to have a little free time this morning. I just can't keep up with this new board, so if you ever need anything from me, please e-mail me directly.

You da man.

John

[neonnoodle]

One handy tool in keeping track of topics which interest you is to click the "Add this thread to my favorites." check box when you post something to it, then you only need to check "My Home" to see if someone has added to the conversation.

I've found that the "Who's Online " option on top can help you find topics that are being currently discussed too. Not to mention the "new to me" option at the bottom of the "Main Index" page.

Or you can just do a search for posts by me and you will likely find all the topics worth reading (or avoiding depending on your personal feelings towards me )

Or you can just do a search for posts by me and you will likely find all the topics worth reading (or avoiding depending on your personal feelings towards me )



using that logic, there'd be too many threads to avoid to keep me interested in this board. while that may be part of your evil master plan, its not going to work.

[johnrhouck]

Thanks, Nick. I use the Favorite Thread option, but when a new thread pops up, as this one did, that feature doesn't help.

New To Me is nice, but I don't have time to look at 30 pages of new posts, especially with my 28.8 connection, which is all you can get out here in paradise.

[neonnoodle]

It is possible that Conrad is continuing to attempt and bring us a start page that is closer to the old message board. The thing to keep in mind is that for the volunteers that manage this site and the stability of the software, not to mention this softwares ability to deal with way more users at the same time, there simply is no going back to the old one.

I agree with everyone's take on this that the old one was easier to scan quickly, and even miss it somewhat, but it just ain't gonna happen that we go back to it. So the key is to get this one to a point where it offers similar capabilities.

In the mean time, it probably would pay off to aquaint yourself with the "My Home" "Who's Online" and "New to Me" options of this board. I can assure you that Conrad has and will continue to try and meet users needs.