Fences that are OB

How do most courses designate fences that are OB lines?
Should the OB lines be JUST INSIDE the fence line so that the actual fence is sitting OB, or is the fence the line?
I was watching the leader group at a recent PDGA event, a player hit the top of the fence, I did not see it pass to the inside of the fence, but he got credit for it making it in at that point instead of where it went out 200' back towards the tee pad. I guess the group gave him the benefit of the doubt.

Most tournaments I have played in the fence is the OB line itself, so if you hit the fence your safe. I really think it is up to the TD to determine the OB line. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

[Chris Hysell]

I had intended to start a thread about making uniform guidelines in marking OB lines but you beat me to it. I noticed in a USDGC video that there were two different methods used to determine if Barry Schultz' disc was OB. It was a situation in which the staff originally pulled a line between the base of the posts to determine the OB line. After some discussion, a string with keys was used as a plumb bob from the line above to settle the dispute. I've seen this happen before when fences are used to mark OB's. I know that cost and time restraints may prevent all OB's to be marked uniformally but I believe there needs to be some standard.

[bruce_brakel]

How do most courses designate fences that are OB lines?




The rules state clearly that the out-of-bounds line is in bounds. A disc which touched the fence, therefore, touched in bounds at that point.

Generally, courses do not designate the fences as in bounds or out of bounds; TDs do. Some TDs follow the rules and some don't.

Using our wide-open rule for drop zones and special conditions, a TD could designate a drop zone for a disc which crosses the fence and ends OB as being the location where it first crossed the fence. The TD would have to announce this before the tournament began.

Speaking as the occasional TD, I always try to follow the rules that are in the rule book they sent me a few days before the tournament. That's my policy and I'm sticking to it.

[slowmo_1]

ok, I might be reading this wrong so I just have to ask. If you hit the fence, even from the outside, you're considered in bounds?

Take the following example...there is a fence up the right side of the hole. A player elects to throw out over the fence and come back in with a hyzer but hits the fence on the way back to the hole. Obviously the disc falls on the outside of the fence line.

The way I read the previous posts is that had the fence not been there the disc would have reach in bounds teritory and therefore the shot should be ruled inbounds?

No No No.....the fence is inbounds itself, but merely hitting it, doesnt make your lie In bounds, it just means, you take your next throw from 1M inside the fence, with a penalty throw.
(it touched "In Bounds" there)

Post deleted by Steve Ganz

[Chris Hysell]

president? President of what? Come on Dude.

[rhett]

I only know of one person that is so clueless that they think Guru is the president and sole representative of the PDGA. And he usually tries to start trouble and hasn't been here in a while, so he is due to start his blathering again.

He's the guy that says dumb stuff like "the PDGA was playing that tournament" if Brian was entered.

[slo]

What if the disc ends up leaning on that fence?
Observation; I wonder if others feel the same way: If the OB parallels the hole [esp. something uniform like a chain-link fence], it's a lot harder to gauge where it went out than if it goes the same distance, but crosses a line perpendicular to the line-of-flight.
...for that reason, and to move things along, are why we have the DZ for OB on #15 @Eldo

[gnduke]

The few times I've played courses that had a situation like that, the TD declared the hole side of the fence to be inbounds. You had to hit the fence from the inside to be inbounds. Discs that traveled over the fence and hyzered back into the outside of the fence were marked where they went out.

[ck34]

the TD declared the hole side of the fence to be inbounds. You had to hit the fence from the inside to be inbounds. Discs that traveled over the fence and hyzered back into the outside of the fence were marked where they went out.



That works on many fences except for chain link. If the fence is called OB, even one side, a disc hitting the "wrong side" is still deemed to have touched the IB line since the benefit is to the player that the disc either flexed the mesh enough or penetrated the mesh enough to break the OB/IB vertical plane. That holds true even if it looks like the disc only hit a pipe supporting the chainlink. Climo himself has used the chainlink rule.

The only way to avoid this is to mark the OB line say 1 inch away from the fence. Even solid fences like hockey rinks are poor OB markers because the OB line is a vertical plane up from the ground, not a surface. So, unless the fence is perfectly plumb, there can and have been arguments when the fence bows, bends or leans from the vertical.

[bruce_brakel]

If the disc is leaning on the fence, it is touching in bounds and therefore is not entirely surrounded by out of bounds. If the disc hits the fence, it was in bounds when it touched the fence, no matter what part of the fence it touched.

You can find the rules by clicking on "Rules" in the upper left hand corner of this page. Read 'em. You might learn more than one new thing.

[mdgnome]

If a disc is thrown out of bounds and it's flight path is disrupted on it's way back inbounds by the fence and lands out-of-bounds,You should have to take the next shot where it went out initially on the grounds of playing the lie.Even if it would have come back in bounds the point is it didn't!

If a quaterback throws a pass and hits a ref they dont give him a completed pass becouse it might have been caught!The ref,like the fence is part of the field so to speak!

[gnduke]

It is also up to the TD to to determine the ground rules for the tournament. If the TD says the back side of the fence is OB, then the back side of the fence is OB. You have to play it where it was last IB.

[ck34]

If the disc is leaning on the fence, it is touching in bounds and therefore is not entirely surrounded by out of bounds. If the disc hits the fence, it was in bounds when it touched the fence, no matter what part of the fence it touched.




Not correct. OB is a line that creates a vertical plane. It is not a surface nor can it be defined that way. So if the outside of the fence line is defined as OB, then OB is a vertical plane from where the fence touches the ground (if it does). A disc hitting the inside of the fence may or may not have broken the OB plane depending on which way the fence leans (if it does). Most likely it hasn't if it's not chainlink. Wide stone fences make pretty good OB lines (right down the centerline) because there's no flexing.

[pterodactyl]

Bruce B is correct in my rule book. It's like the foul pole in baseball. It should be called the fair pole. If you hit it, it's fair. If you hit the fence, you hit "in bounds". If the TD doesn't say anything about it, the disc is in bounds when it makes contact. The rule book is clear: The out of bounds line is "in". Hence: leaners are in.

Correct.....if it is leaning against the fence, it SHOULD be called IB, unless specifically said to be OB by the TD.

there are ultra-anal interpretations to every rule, in every sport...

[twoputtok]

And what about when the disc is leaning on a curb. The curb line is the OB line. Around here they say on top of the curb is in and leaning on the curb is out. If it is touching the line, is it not considered in?

Depends on where the "LINE" is, for OB....grass line, or where curb mets street. I have seen curb leaners called both ways, at different events.

Like most OB, it is TD specific.

[rhett]

I always declare the OB line for curbs to be the line where the grass meets the curb so the curb itself is out.

Most tournaments I have played in the fence is the OB line itself, so if you hit the fence your safe. I really think it is up to the TD to determine the OB line. Someone correct me if I am wrong.



I need to correct myself. I did not mean you are safe (IB) where you hit the fence, I meant to say where you hit the fence is where you mark you lie as last touching IB.

Now from reading some of the other posts I have a question. If you are leaning against the far side of the fence (The OB side/ the side away from the basket) and the fence is the OB line are you OB or IB? If the OB line is a vertical plane and you are touching that vertical plane are you IB?

[rhett]

The OB line is inbounds. If you are touching the OB line you are not completely surrounded by OB, so you are not OB.

If the fence is the OB line and you are touching the fence....see above.

[gang4010]

If a TD wants an "OB" Fence to actually act as one, they need to declare the IB side of the fence as the line itself.

In most cases, a fence being used as OB is meant to act as a deterrent to particular routes. Unfortunately, the way the rule is written - merely striking the fence allows a player to play from that spot (usually w/a stroke penalty - but also most of the time, they would have had a stroke plus a repeat of the same shot that earned them the stroke). This IMO takes away from the difficulty and from the risk reward scenario involved with using fences as obstacles.

Any TD can declare that the line is either side of the fence - thus negating the claim of those striking the OB side of having touched IB. More simply, perhaps they should not declare a fence as the line but as 1" outside the line, thus eliminating silly arguments about whether a disc striking chain link actually broke the plane of the IB side.

[exczar]

Craiger,

Good point. An OB line is not flexible. On rare occasions, it is not on the ground or playing surface. As I think Chuck K. stated before, it could be drawn through the center of the top of a stone or brick wall.

If the OB line segment is indeed defined by the line segments betwen the points where the fence makes contact with the ground, then indeed any disc striking the fence from any direction would most likely have been IB where it struck the fence.

Now, if the TD wants to use the fence, but is constrained from drawing another line (I orig. wrote "too lazy to", but a lazy TD should be an oxymoron /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif ), then the TD could define the OB line as a line that is parallel from the lines defined on the playing surface by the fence, but X inches/cm from it, making sure that the distance is more than the flex of the fence.

This line is defined, but not drawn or marked, just like most water or asphalt or concrete OB lines are defined.

Due to the "Rule of Verticallity", a 3 dimensional object such as a fence should not (I would say can not ) be used as a line..

[Pizza God]

It is not possible to always have a clear defined ob line on a course. The way the current rule is written is used to the players advantage at my tournament. There are a couple of hole with a chain link fence on the course. The fence itself is the OB line, therefore, if you hit the fence on the OB side, you take your in lie at that point. But you must be touching the fence to be in bounds. (because the OB line is in bounds itself)

Another place I use the rule is around the creek at Greenbelt. I call the stone retaining wall around the creek the OB line itself. This does 2 things. 1st, there are places in the creek where rocks and mud have settled and are dry, they are still OB. But the wall is about 2 to 3 feet across. If you are sitting on the wall or touching the wall (above the water surface) you are in bounds and can take your meter in from the edge of the wall. (the wall is only about 1 inch high on the dry side, and 2-3 feet from the water surface) This keeps the player from standing on the wall to shoot his next shot and possibly falling in. (now hole 16 is easy to shoot a circle 3 because most players will hit the wall go OB and make there 10ft putt)

[neonnoodle]

I just played in a non-PDGA where even touching OB was considered OB. It seemed to make a lot of sense. If you are not supposed to be in these areas, being even a little bit in them should be enough to take a stroke and move completely out of them...

I know this will be a popular idea.

[exczar]

Bryan,

I like how you have defined the OB at Greenbelt. Definite great help to speed of play.

But, you could still define OB as 3 inches or 8 cm (those are different lengths) away from the chain link fence. The fence is still defining the OB line, which runs parallel to the fence.

What if the chain link fence is 10 ft high, and part of it leans slightly to the "OB" side? In that portion, the disc, even with the fence flex, would not get to the line defined by where the fence touches the playing surface.

Using a parallel line would eliminate any question about OB. You could print a 3 inch line on the scorecard, a la Putt-Putt, to measure.

Ideally, the distance should be chosen such that no amount of flex at the point of disc impact would bring the disc over IB, and also that only a disc leaning almost vertically against the wall would be IB.

I don't think that a blanket statement of "if a disc hits the "OB" side of a chain link fence, it was IB at the point" is in agreement with the Rules, since the Rule of Verticality and the Glossary def of Out-of-bounds both refer to a line and the plane that is defined by that line.

Of course, I am not saying that you are doing anything intentionally against the Rules; I know you far too well to say that. You just may want to reconsider how to define the OB line when a barrier that is flexible and/or not completely vertical is used for OB purposes.

I like the "make the fence sitting OB" scenario.
This way the disc must be inside the fence line to be even considered IB, or must cross to the inside of the fence at some point or the lie goes to where it crossed originally.

You play with fire you get burned sometimes.

[cdamon]

The way the current situation is handled, where a disc that is OB for almost its entire flight and strikes the OB side of the fence, leading to a mark at the IB side at that point, is counterintuitive to me. In my eyes, that disc was only in the fairway for the first 10 or 20 feet, but gets treated the same as one (eg a lefty hyzer) that was over the fairway for 200 feet and faded over the fence at the very end. Imagine that you're a spectator with a passing knowledge of disc golf, and you see a long righty hyzer go over the fence and fail to make it back. You certainly wouldn't expect the player to play his third shot from way up the fairway. Same thing for a roller thrown over the fence that eventually runs into the fence.

Making the OB line an inch inside the fence line solves the problem with only a little extra trouble. The chance of a shot being OB on the IB side of the fence is very slim (a roller that stands perfectly vertical against the fence, maybe), so that inch would likely never have to be measured. Within our current rules, that's the only way I can think of that accomplishes what we want. I always thought the argument that the disc projected enough through a hole in the chain link to touch IB to be particularly cheesy, when it's obvious that the shot never made it back on or over the fairway.

You could do the same thing in any situation where a vertical surface defines an OB line. For example, for street OB make the OB line an inch or two inside the curb's edge (sometimes there's a seam in the concrete about 3 inches in that works well). That way, any disc in the street, even leaning on the curb, is OB as you would expect.

-Conrad

[pterodactyl]

Maybe disc golf should adopt the ball golf rule. If the ball/disc ends up OB, re-hit/re-throw from original shot. End of problems. It's just the loneliest walk in the world to go back and re-tee or re-throw.
The only problem I could think may happen, is that the golfer may have picked up their mini and isn't sure where they threw their shot from. So, when in doubt, leave your mini on the ground and go check if you are IB or OB.

[jconnell]

We already have that option, and TDs can and probably should limit the rule to that option in cases of holes such as this.


B. A player whose disc is considered out-of-bounds shall receive one penalty throw. The player may elect to play the next shot from: (1) The previous lie as evidenced by the marker disc or, if the marker disc has been moved from an approximate lie, as agreed to by the majority of the group or an official; or (2) A lie that is up to one meter away from and perpendicular to the point where the disc last crossed into out-of-bounds, as determined by a majority of the group or an official. This holds true even if the direction takes the lie closer to the hole; or (3) Within the designated Drop Zone, if provided. These options may be limited by the tournament director as a special condition (see 804.01).



That would save even the lazy TD (the one who won't mark a line inside the fence) from any controversy. If it lands OB, rethrow from the previous lie.

The only issue for debate would be a disc that is touching the fence when it comes to rest. In that case, the TD either states that part of the disc must be on the IB side of fence to be IB (ie laying under/on top of the fence with a part of it on the IB side), or that touching the fence in any manner would constitute being IB.

--Josh

[pterodactyl]

I'm saying to eliminate any option. Make it "the" rule. Then OB will be a severe penelty and you won't see so many "Berkeley" pars.

[chainedturtle]

We have too much OB to do this now. What would happen with all that F****** artifical OB at some of the big tournaments. Some ppl would never get off the **** tee.

Limit the ob and this would be way groovy

A disc that flies/rolls over an OB line and lands inside the penalty zone should be OB.
If you have no reason to keep people and discs out of an area, there is no logical reason to have the OB to begin with.
All that jammering about leaning/touching on/near OB/IB from the leaning/flexing OB side is crazy talk.
Good lord! If you flirt with a forbidden zone and can't perform your trickery,take your lie from where you went out.
WHY should anyone be rewarded for bouncing away from the OB barrier on the way back in? (This is not a rhetorical question-try to give me a fairplay/logical response. Humor me.)

[exczar]

A disc that flies/rolls over an OB line and lands inside the penalty zone should be OB.
If you have no reason to keep people and discs out of an area, there is no logical reason to have the OB to begin with.
All that jammering about leaning/touching on/near OB/IB from the leaning/flexing OB side is crazy talk.
Good lord! If you flirt with a forbidden zone and can't perform your trickery,take your lie from where you went out.
WHY should anyone be rewarded for bouncing away from the OB barrier on the way back in? (This is not a rhetorical question-try to give me a fairplay/logical response. Humor me.)



Speedy,

Tell the USDGC about having OB areas that are not "necessary" :D

Also, about the bouncing off of OB fence. The rules are such that the last place a disc is IB could be when the fence gives when it is hit from the OB side. Technically, that would be where it was last IB.