Tournaments take too long!

Why do we need a 1 hour break between rounds? This sometimes ends up being 2-2/12 hrs. before you`re throwing again. :confused:

My suggestion would be as soon as the TD is done with the cards we go back out.

Hey idiot, ever hear of LUNCH?

[neonnoodle]

I always give an hour from the last card to (legally) come in, unless the last card agrees to a shorter period.

I'd like to see events start earlier. I realize that some folks are travelling farther than others, but this would give them an earlier start home as well.

Dude, chill with the Idiot crap. First off , I don`t know anyone who eats a meal in between rounds of casual golf. Why then during tournys? The point I`m trying to make is by the time the cards are shuffled, everyone will have time for a quick bite to eat. :mad:

Sorry, read that after a computer frick-up system wide here at work, and snapped at you....

I know people who take meal breaks between casual rounds occationally, and I imagine you are in by far the minority, wanting lunch breaks done away with.

Besides, since drinking during the rounds is now outlawed, when else do we get a chance to imbibe?

:D

[ching_lizard]

Steve: I think a lot depends on the venue for the tournament too. Yesterday for example, the TD ran 2 rounds of 21 holes at the GCCS event and even with an hour lunch, I was home by 5:30pm. An hour for lunch was good because there were a handful of eating choices close by.

When we host a tourney out at Tom Bass, there really aren't many food places close at hand, so we have to allow at least 1.5 hours for folks to get something to eat and get back again.

Most TDs would get lynched if they didn't allow time for a lunch break! :eek:

Cool, I know some people do like to eat between rounds. I just thought I`d post this topic because it`s the # 1 complaint I hear about PDGA events.

[neonnoodle]

I've run some events that go right back out, but you have to announce that ahead of time or you will be in hot water. These were not PDGA sanctioned events.

[stevemaerz]

Let me take a wild guess here Steve, you've never been a tournament director have you?
In addition to allowing ample time for everyone to eat and warm up for the 2nd round there is a lot that needs to be done in between rounds. Cards need to be double checked, placed in order , tees and /or baskets may have to be moved. If it is a one day event and the td was playing it is especially difficult as you have to figure money allotments to pro purse, am prizes as well as the pdga's take your regional club's take and costs for trophies, ctp prizes and the like. Inevitably while you're busy crunching numbers and resolving any questions and/or problems encountered during the round you're constantly being interupted from constant "when's the next round going to start?"( despite posting the time in numerous locations) and "what layout are we playing next round?"(despite including tourney details in the tournament program)and of course the "Dude, you should have seen the triple circle eight I took on hole four!" :p
You mentioned sometimes it's 2 1/2 hrs before the next round starts(and I would agree that's too long), however often times it maybe an hour between when the first group finishes and the last group so for the last group it may have been an hour and a half.The standard break is one hour from time of the last group returns.
The key to making tournaments run quicker is start on time (players arriving last minute can make this difficult) the TD having adequate help and players who read their programs and limit their silly questions and stories between rounds.
Steve, I don't intend this tirade to be an attack on you but hopefully many who share this concern of length of tournaments don't appreciate all the effort that goes into running a quality event.

[rhett]

Tournament rounds take how long they take. There is currently nothing you can do to speed them up.

I hear people complaining about the long drive home, but when I started the SoCal finals at 8:30 AM each day so that people would be able to get an earlier start home on Sinday, I heard complaints about it being too early. Oh well, some people hate getting up early and some people hate get a late start home.

You can't please 'em all, so I guess as a TD your number one group to please should be your volunteers, so do what makes sense for them so that the tourney can go on.

One of the biggest causes of delays and late starts is day-of registration. Eliminating that really makes it easy to start on time the first day. :)

One of the biggest causes of delays and late starts is day-of registration. Eliminating that really makes it easy to start on time the first day. :)


True dat!

Also, organizing a lunch free or NOT on-site could potentially SPEED up play and get you on the road home quicker.

[neonnoodle]

I third that! Day of Registration is something I will NEVER do again. Pre-reg is the way to go for PDGAs.

[gang4010]

Perhaps this is something the PDGA might consider including in its tier sanctioning agreement?

At what point does it become imposing on a lower tier / less experienced TD?
I can see it already in use for A Tier/ NT. But is B Tier and below ready for this requirement? They weren't ready for mandatory membership - this might be a stretch too - regardless of how desirable it might be.

Late start on Saturday, early start Sunday.

Lunch on site really speeds things up.

GnDuke

[neonnoodle]

I don't see it as a requirement within our standards for B and lower PDGAs. Still, I'd highly recommend it. It's basically up to the TD.

Gary, those are excellent ideas for 2 day events.

[gang4010]

Nick,

I didn't say it WAS a requirement for BTier and below.

I was questioning whether that level of event could sustain or manage it AS a requirement.

I think it has been and continues to be encouraged as a good tournament practice by the PDGA.

[neonnoodle]

Craig, I didn't say you did.

Pre-reg is not for every event, but if I run any future events, it will absolutely be a part of my event.

[ching_lizard]

You guys are too much! :D What TD wouldn't love to have registration in advance only? The trouble with that is that few Pros on the traveling circuit ever pre-register. You'd be killing your Open fields.

That is something that the new sanctioning agreement is taking into consideration by requiring a certain number of Open entries to remain open until a couple of days before the event.

It takes discipline to cut off your day-of registration at the time you say you will and to still allow yourself enough time to generate the cards for the starting round. One of best things a TD can do is to assign an assistant the job of watching the clock to remind him/her of when the players meeting is due to start, and when the round start time is scheduled for. It's also a great idea for the TD to make arrangements for someone to grab him/her some food for lunch because they darned sure aren't gonna get a chance to eat it when everyone else does!!! :O

They're supposed to eat before everyone else does. :cool:
Hey, if they have arranged for food to be available or prepared on site, food for them shouldn't be a problem.

[johnbart20852]

actually we had this problem at an our event here in ky last weekend... the first people got done and ate and were ready to go back out after about 45 min... but the lower ams, who were unfamiliar with the course and who lost a few discs during the round, were not back yet.. so we waited until they came in and started a stagger start last round... it actually ran pretty smoothly and the ams finished right after everyone else... maybe 10 minutes or so... maybe this is an idea...

[cbdiscpimp]

My thought was that tournaments were supposed to take all day.........And IMO if you dont have the time or are complaining about how long they take Either start running your own Tournaments the way you want to, or DONT PLAY TOURNAMENTS.......This quote should take care of any complaints you have.....i dont know who it belongs to but its a **** good one"ANY day on the Course is Better than your BEST day at work" so stop complaining and start thanking all the people that work thier ASSES off to make these tournaments you are complaining about possible.........
THANKS TO ALL THE HARD WORKING TDS AROUND THE COUNTRY WHO BUST THIER ASSES TO MAKE TOURNAMENT PLAY POSSIBLE.......YOUR DOING A GREAT JOB :)

This quote should take care of any complaints you have.....i dont know who it belongs to but its a **** good one"ANY day on the Course is Better than your BEST day at work"



ME ME ME ME......Changed it, though, figured everyone had seen it enough....

[boru]

stop complaining and start thanking all the people that work thier ASSES off to make these tournaments you are complaining about possible.........



That's a good attitude to have when you're actually at a tournament, but it's not really constructive here. The point of this forum is to take problems, challenges - complaints, if you like - and kick them around until we find a solution. It can be a messy process, but if we come up with anything that makes life easier for TDs or makes tournaments run more smoothly, it's more than worthwhile.

As for lunch, is it really that hard to pack a sandwich? Or sushi? Or Pop Rocks, or whatever else keeps your engine going?

[disctance00]

Untill the players in the sport can afford to take four days to play four rounds we are kinda stuck with having to cram a whole tournament into 2 days. It helps to have lunch onsite everything runs so much smoother. Staggered starts seem to work pretty well also. I personally just need something small to tide me over until around dinner time ie: crackers,jerky or something of the sorts. Also when your in the dead summer heat it is nice to be able to go into a restaraunt and cool the body down for awhile. But, 2 1/2 hrs between rds seems a little too long.

[rhett]

I think the best way to speed up the tournament day is to step up and help the TD run the thing. There are lots and lots of things that have to be done to make things run smoothly, and TDs typically are way understaffed with help. An overly long lunch break is, methinks, a very good sign that the tourney could've used your help.

On that note, the TD needs your help before the event and during it. Showing up to help in the middle of crunch time can make it difficult on the overburdened TD, as s/he then has to stop "putting out fires" in order to explain to you what needs to be done. This is actually a little too late to make a huge difference, although every little bit helps.

A better plan, if you are indeed bothered by the length of the tournament day and will actually follow through with your offers and help on the day of the tourney, is to get involved with the planning stages and become someone that the TD can absolutely count on to get things done. Don't be upset if the grumpy TD is a little apprehensive about you, as people "volunteer" all the time and then don't show up or do what they say they will. But if you participate in the planning and prep, even if the TD doesn't listen to your suggestions the first time, are where you said you would be when you said you would be and you are doing what you said you would do, then the tournament really will flow smoother and wrap up sooner, and the TD and other organizers will now know they can count on you. And you'll be amazed how much more your ideas will be listened to once you establish the fact that you are willing to back them up with some good old fashioned work.

But if you just want to show up at tee time and leave right after your last putt, then I guess you'll just have to endure the status quo. :)

[cbdiscpimp]

I just think we should thank the TD's for even doing this in the first place.........I dont think we should be ragging on them because a two round tournaments gets done at 5 or 6 Oclock which in the summer leaves 4 hour to drive untill its dark.....I think stagger start would work............Or you could just keep the same groups as the first round and give them each about a half hour to rest eat or what have you.......Then send them on thier way.........This eliminates the Top Players from playin together in the last round......Which in my opinion in the reason to play tournys to make the TOP CARD and know where you stand but it would speed up the pace a lil.........But lunch on site has still been the fastest i have seen weather you have it free or sell it...........It works best that way i think
And Rhett is right if you want things run better help run them yourselves, often times TD's have only two mayb Three Helpers..........When in all reality it would run alot better if he had Maybe TEN or so............Im always willing to help out before Tee Off or at lunch if a TD needs the help...........
Other then that well just have to deal with it for now :confused:

I don`t think anybody here is ragging on TD`s. Anybody who`s played even 1 event should know the hard work that goes into running an event.Sometimes they don`t even get to play in thier own tourney! My point is players with other responsibilities, (wife, kids, jobs) need to be home at a decent hour, so anything to make a tourney run more smoothly is a good thing. This IMO is also an issue related to increasing PDGA membership. P.S. yes, I have helped run tournaments. ;)

[disctance00]

I agree, nobody is ragging on TD's. Thank goodness there are people out there who are willing to run events. With that said, I also do beleive that if a person is wanting to run tournaments then that person should be organized enough to get the help that they will need. It is their responsibility to ensure that they bring a quality run event to the table. We can't have just any Tom , Rick, and Harry who wants to make a few bucks on a tournament start running a tournament, only to find out that he/she is ill prepared and have to get help from the players to make his/her tourney come off well. I am always willing to help somebody out with an event PRIOR to the first 2 minute warning after that it's up to them. They have had more than enough time to get prepared and put on a good event. In that time they need to make sure they have the help they need to do whatever it is to make sure they get it right. Bottom line if a person wants to run an event then that person should have their ducks in a row. Especially these so called PRO TD's.
Me personally I don't care what time the tourney ends by the time I get home the wife is real happy to see me. :D

[neonnoodle]

TDs by and large do not make a red nickle. Even if they clear a few bucks (which usually goes back into the event or to the local club) it doesn't even come close to the dollar value of the time and effort they put into running it.

Comments and Advice should be welcomed by TDs, JUST MAKE SURE THAT YOU OFFER THEM IN THE CORRECT MANNER.

After a heartfelt "thank you" and definitely after the event is over and they aren't running around making the event happen.

If and when you ever run an event, any event, these truths will be made more than self-evident to you.

[magilla]

[/QUOTE]
One of the biggest causes of delays and late starts is day-of registration. Eliminating that really makes it easy to start on time the first day. :)

[/QUOTE]

:D Thats what Im talking about...Failure to Pre-Reg is the #1 reason why a tournament gets off to a a late start.
If Pre-Reg was manditory then the TD could have All the Payouts and Scorecards done before the event even starts.
I have tried multiple things, ie Higher Late fees but nothing short of Manditory Pre-Reg works..And if I do that I still get 20 or so people begging to get in on Sat Morn. As a TD Id like to tell them to go on home, But as a Tournament Player Id like to see everyone get the chance to play as well.

Best answer.....If you want to get done faster Always Pre-Reg and offer your assistance to the TD...Im sure he/she can find something that needs to be done. ;)

[disctance00]

TDs by and large do not make a red nickle. Even if they clear a few bucks (which usually goes back into the event or to the local club) it doesn't even come close to the dollar value of the time and effort they put into running it.



I agree with you on that. It takes a special kind of person willing to go through so much for so many. Wheather they make money or not is'nt the point. Most TD's unfortunately seem to lose money somewhere down the line or do put it back in the kitty. I believe that the door is a little to open to let people run events.

[neonnoodle]

Do you run events?

[rhett]

I hope nobody thought I was saying you were ragging on TDs, because I wasn't saying that.

You guys were talking about tourney days taking too long and I offered some ideas on how to speed it up. That's all.

And please please PLEASE don't think that all TDs are making money off you. There are a very few "pro TDs" who make a living at it, but they are far far FAR from the majority! :)

[disctance00]

What does it matter if I have or have'nt run an event?

[ching_lizard]

Distance - don't let Nick bait you. Ignore it. Everyone that plays in a tourney has the right to provide feedback to the organizers. I have the impression that Nick will want to say that if you don't run an event, then you probably should gripe about the way others do.

All feedback is good - although some is better than others. :D I will say that folks offering feedback who also run events carry more weight to me...and sometimes a bunch of grousing about little stuff can wear a TD down. The only suggestion I'd make is to request that all players temper their feedback to a TD...

[neonnoodle]

What do you care if I ask that or not? :D

No, it just seemed like you were talking from experience in running events.

But your comment "perhaps the door is a little to[o] open for folks to be TDs" rang as a little too spiteful for an experienced TD. Generally speaking the challenge of bad TDs solves itself in time, for obvious reasons.

This problem does not approach the challenge of finding ANYONE to run them in the first place. If you think you have it figured out enough to offer strong advice and criticism then we sure could use you on the front lines... ;)

[disctance00]

My interest does not yet lie in becoming a TD, but to help TD's raise monies and getting the community involved with our sport. I have helped with tournies and been behind the curtain enough to know what goes on and what does'nt. My concentration is focused more with the bigger companies getting involved and giving some serious attention to the sport. I'm already getting in on the front lines and trying to do what I can, just maybe not in the capacity that you may or may not expect. We are really all on the same side here so let's cut out the bait and tackle crap.

[neonnoodle]

I'm going to treat you with the respect you deny the TDs you slighted in your post. I suggest that you take your concerns directly to the TDs, in your expert opinion, you feel don't deserve to run events. Just be warned they have the specific orifice on your body already well picked out for you to shove it.

If you don't like their events then don't go to them. Most TDs are open to well intentioned and well timed advice or criticism. No TD likes to be slighted from afar, particularely by someone who has never walked in his/her shoes. Helping run at tournament though wonderful and much needed is nothing compared to being where the buck stops. Once you've run one you will know this.

I'm sure you are a fine fellow, just be careful which way you hurl mud. It makes me angry and you wouldn't like me when I'm angry... http://www.madisc.org/happy/062802fire_prv.gif

[disctance00]

You are truly an
a
s
s
h
o
l
e
I never slung any mud around either. I simply stated my opinion. You must really hate it when people voice their opinion. Just what is neonnoodle anyway? I swear it's has to be a some sort of homosexual thing, sorta like the rainbow warrior. Oh sorry to drift anyway...I tried to give up the respects to TD's and you somehow twisted that into some *** mud thing... :confused: Are you mad at your daddy?
You also brought up something about a certain orifice or something that I could stick my opinion or whatever it was you were saying, that is yet another *** remark. Admit your *** dude, come clean and come out of the closet!!! I'm sure people would like to know if your starring at their *** or not when they are teeing off or putting or something. So basically STFU ya dam neonazi!

[keithjohnson]

nick has another new fan...at this rate only he and texas will be posting on the new board :D

[disctance00]

I yelled at Nick another time somewhere on this board. How is the weather for Tucson Disc Golf right now? Primo I'm sure.

[keithjohnson]

distance00 says:"I yelled at Nick another time somewhere on this board."

everybody has at one time or another :D

tucson weather is mid 30's for lows and mid to upper 60's for highs...

disc golf in tucson is another story though :eek:
:D

[ching_lizard]

[Monty Python voice on] "I tried to warn ya', but would ya listen? noooooo! It's just a little noodle ya said..." [python off] :D

I yelled at Nick another time somewhere on this board. How is the weather for Tucson Disc Golf right now? Primo I'm sure.



The weather is fantastic. The courses suck. We're working on the latter, c'mon down if you're motivated.

[disctance00]

I just moved away from there 15 months ago. No desire to go back to the desert just yet. I saw that there is 2 corses there now, Groves Park or something? I was there when Stokley did his seminar and I tapered off playing DG after that. The course ( Santa Cruz )was either too hot or too dusty and I lost intrest.

[discette]

Darling Nicki stated:


you wouldn't like me when I'm angry...



Most people don't like you when you are not angry! :eek:

Darling Nicki stated:


you wouldn't like me when I'm angry...



Most people don't like you when you are not angry! :eek:




ROFLMAO.......Nicky is definately an acquired taste.....

He means well.....
:D

[neonnoodle]

I believe that the door is a little to open to let people run events.



Name names, oh well intentioned one. You haven't even run an event yet you are comfortable enough to tell others they shouldn't. That is mudslinging.

Suzette, maybe you are one of the TDs Anonymous was talking about. Keith for sure! :D

Mediocre flame Anonymous. You need to do a little better than that to raise my ire. Like take potshots at TDs.

[neonnoodle]

In Who's Online it's cool to watch Suzette reading then checking if Anon is Anon, then figuring out some slight to toss my way. What an awesome board!

[discette]

Nick, who is this anonymous you refer to? It can't be Distance00, as he is Jeffrey Hellman, PDGA #13732 from Austin, TX. He even has a picture next to his posts. I have never met him, but I have to say I like his style. Besides, he's already a Master. ;)

I am the queen of ON TIME Tournaments, ask ANYONE who has been to ANY of mine!!!!! They are on time because I am well organized and know how to delegate authority. You can even sign up on the day of my events!!!! :cool:

And, BTW, you don't have to run a tournament to have an opinion on what makes one well run, doofus!

[discette]

Post deleted by Discette

****, I think thats a little harsh....Chilllll


While he DID potentially overstepped "proper" administrator tact, I dont think he actually posted anything important.

Now, I hope he gets a clue, that nothing like that should ever be done again.....

Change his A to an a.....

:p

[rob]

Banned from the message board because he's an angry dick, no.
Not allowed to be an administrator because he's abused his power, yes.
Nick, I read this thread and you were the first one to start slinging mud, IMO. Take a breath, calm down.

[neonnoodle]

Rob, I haven't slung any mud. I have confronted people straight up and head to head, not made indirect slighting remarks to the detriment of all TDs.

Go back and read and you will see that that is true.

man, has this thread been entertaining or what? :)

from griping about the need to eliminate lunch and tournaments taking too long (waaahhh), to nick kight trying to give lessons in the proper way to criticize people (hi-freaking-larious), to discette's poll (exercise your right to vote or the terrorists win), it has been outrageous.

i rate this thread 5 stars strictly based on entertainment value.

a few thoughts while i wait for the rest of the entertaining venom. for all those that support hcf events, don't worry, we'll continue to provide lunch for you whenever possible and at the very least will always give you a lunch break. i encourage all texas tds to stop providing lunches for their players and time for them to eat. it can only help our turnout. :) on that note, thanks to distance00 for stepping up and getting a delicious free lunch sponsored between the final rounds of our final '03 event.

nick, take some of your own advice.

discette, just so that we're clear, i agree with your sentiments and i voted yes in your poll, but only to be a contrarian. i really don't want to see nick banned. as i've said before, such quality cannon fodder is hard to come by.

now back to your regularly scheduled rant. you guys kill me. :)

[rob]

"BAN SUZETTE FOR BEING UPTIGHT"?
Nick, did you or did you not breach user's private info, then post who an annonymous poster was? I think Suzette has a right to be upset. You crossed the line.

[neonnoodle]

We aim to please. You make a fun Bull's *** Mark yourself.

[LouMoreno]

Nick wrote,


I'm sure you are a fine fellow, just be careful which way you hurl mud. It makes me angry and you wouldn't like me when I'm angry...



I can't believe you stole my line. :mad: There's only enough room for one Hulk on this board. Can't you quote a noodle or something?

[discette]

Okay, lets not ban Nick, altogether. He has apologized for his brain fart. He wasn't aware I was anonymous.

The message board would be no fun without Nick.

But, I think we can all agree he needs to act more like a moderator, and not such an instigator.

And, if it got lost in all this...........I run my tournies on time. :)

Thread drift off!

[neonnoodle]

Rob, do I need be sworn in first?


Nick, did you or did you not breach user's private info, then post who an annonymous poster was?



Question two first: No. Like everyone else I can't see a persons name if they don't enter it in their profile.

Question one: In the "Who's Online" feature I was unaware that I could see users who wish their movements in the board to be hidden from other users. Now I am aware of that and will take care not to spill the beans about what those folks are up to. I sent an apology to Suzette, and will be aware of the little (|) next to there name in the "Who's Online" feature (A cool feature by the way). I had erroneously thought that everyone could see these things, though most users do not choose the stealth mode option, and it is more fun when they don't (See reasons why in "Welcome to the new board - feedback encouraged " thread), I will respect their need for privacy now that I am aware of this feature.

May the accused now step down? (I'll plead the 5th anyway so...)

I do not plan on discussing message board admin issues here in the future, so if you have any issues, comments, questions or are in the mood for a little lovin', like only Neonnoodle can provide, feel free to send me an email or "Private Message".

[discette]

Hey, it won't let me edit my post about Banning Nicki because it has a poll in it. I don't want to delete it just yet, or the people reading this later today, won't understand what's going on. :D

[neonnoodle]

Oh, a way of deleting it is possible....

its, "yourself, Mark," not "Mark youself." c'mon nicki, get with the program or i'll have to start an "annoying grammar mistakes," thread. :)

"you wouldn't like me when i'm angy," still cracks me up.

[gang4010]

The notion that sanctioning is perhaps a little to readily available to non experienced TD's is not a slight on all TD's Nick. It is actually a very insightful remark.

The fact that over the last few years - the PDGA has chosen to sanction basically any event that submits a sanctioning agreement (this is a mild exaggeration - but for the most part true) speaks volumes about their desire (or lack thereof) to establish and maintain a certain level of quality and consistency in the events with their name on them.

I'm not saying it's an easy thing to do. I'm not saying the PDGA hasn't made good information available that would assist a potential 1st time TD to prepare for their event (they have). But realistically - there does not appear to have been much in the way of oversight in this regard.

[discette]

My Edit function says I could delete it, but not edit it. :( Yes, I know Administrators can delete posts, but I have a feeling you will think twice before ever deleting one of mine. :) Like I said, we will let it run for a while! /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[neonnoodle]

Craiger, THAT is a better way of putting it.

Still, even on a regional level, it isn't easy to tell a TD that they aren't cutting it. I can imagine that on a national level that it is next to impossible.

Bad TDs have a way of removing themselves if given enough rope. I agree with most points made by 00 concerning TDs and good practices, I'm just overly sensitive to TD bashing I guess.

Realizing your own shortcomings as a TD and getting the help your need is probably the skill that is most needed to succeed. This is not something that can be told to most TDs, it is something they need to experience for themselves.

That being said, TD Summits, where best practices can be shared is something I hope all regions and the PDGA takes some roll in promoting. I did my best to copy Mark's model for our region, and it worked out pretty well. I hope that this can be encouraged by the PDGA on a national level, and if not that more regions will just do it for themselves.

The notes from our regions TD summit are available at www.madisc.org. (http://www.madisc.org.) I have a copy of Mark's as well, you can email me for those or check with him for where you can get a copy.

Any plan to deny a TD PDGA Sanctioning should be VERY well thought out with a tilt towards providing hands on guidance on how to meet standards so that they can regain sanctioning. And all with an overly obvious Attitude of Gratitude for any amount of effort on their part to take on one of the top three responsibilities any disc golf organizer can take on, running an event.

[disctance00]

The fact that over the last few years - the PDGA has chosen to sanction basically any event that submits a sanctioning agreement (this is a mild exaggeration - but for the most part true) speaks volumes about their desire (or lack thereof) to establish and maintain a certain level of quality and consistency in the events with their name on them.



Thank You those are my feeling on the matter. The Pdga has certain requirements for each of its sanctioning tiers, but no requirements of becoming a TD except an officials test they send answers to. This is in no way a bash on current TD's. Nor was any of my comments.

[neonnoodle]

This is not a bait:

How would you have the PDGA go about approving who could run a PDGA Sanctioned event and who could not?

I think that it is a good idea in general, but when it comes down to actually doing it you run into a ton of problems. I'm not saying it cannot be done, just that it would take a lot of effort, money, and be unlikely to be accomplished under our associations current budget and set up.

But hey! I'm all for change! So long as it is positive that is...

[disctance00]

I don't really care if you try to bait me or not.
Pinky Glo Boy wants to run an event. Pinky wants to be sanctioned. Pinky asks for PDGA for Sanctioning. PDGA could say "start out at the low end of the totem pole and prove yourself to the players and the PDGA that you are serious".
Give the oppritunnity to Pinky but don't give him so much that he is overwhelmed and hurts players, PDGA, potential sponsors, community relations, City councils, and whoever else you can think of. Make Pinky gradually come up through the ranks instead of biting off more than he can chew. Does'nt seem as though that is so expensive or difficult to incorporate into the system.

[neonnoodle]

Does'nt seem as though that is so expensive or difficult to incorporate into the system.



Nothing does. Until you actually try to do it.

Who would be the person that would contact each TD and by what method? Would it be a paid PDGA position? What system would they use to track and follow up on agreements? Could the PDGA BOD or Membership approve such a position and give them the authority to deny sanctioning to TDs who have not met PDGA standards? What recourse would a TD who has been denied sanctioning have and who would deal with this part of the process at the PDGA end?

Again, I'm not saying it is a bad idea, but it is not as simple or easy as you make it out to be. Now if you are volunteering to figure all of this out and run it all yourself without additional cost or work for Brian or the PDGA, then I will be quiet right now and watch in awe as you tackle this challenge...

[rhett]

The new tier standards require that all new events start as C-tier, which is the lowest regular tier event there is. You are not allowed to move up in sanctioning level until you exceed the requrements of the higher tier as a lower tier.

There is, however, a way to petition for a higher tier initially if you are an established TD and can present a proposal that gives the PDGA a warm-fuzzy that you will meet the tier standards. This is not the norm, however.

So in effect htis concern has been addressed. If a new TD wants to sanction a new event, they have to start at the lowest tier level. Which seems to me how it should be.

[disctance00]

The PDGA, just like the sport we play has to keep moving forward. Wheather the PDGA rolls it, spike hyzer's it, anhyzer's it, or booms it straight up the gut, the PDGA has to keep moving forward paying attention on the way to the various stumbling blocks. How it gets done is up to the PDGA. This sport has suffered in the past from missed oppritunnities. Looking at potential problems and addresseing them is what the PDGA is for. I don't have all the answers nor the experience but that does'nt mean I can't voice my opinion on whatever I want.

[gang4010]

Before there were so many events - it seems like the RC's played a role in setting regional schedules, and at least being available for offering guidance to new TD's. Now, sanctioning agreements go direct to the PDGA with little or no oversight from State or Regional Coordinators (other than perhaps date scheduling). Maybe this sort of "screening", as a responsibility, could help to add legitimacy and meaning to the title of RC or SC. It's much more probable that a person in one of those positions would have better access to, and knowledge of new incoming TD's than HQ. It seems this approach might also help to increase the level and quality of communication within a given state or region.

[rhett]

I think Nick should be banned because I was only 80 posts ahead of him as of last night for the number two spot in the "most posts ever" race. There no way I can hold him off today without him getting banned.

:)

[magilla]

Before there were so many events - it seems like the RC's played a role in setting regional schedules, and at least being available for offering guidance to new TD's. Now, sanctioning agreements go direct to the PDGA with little or no oversight from State or Regional Coordinators (other than perhaps date scheduling). Maybe this sort of "screening", as a responsibility, could help to add legitimacy and meaning to the title of RC or SC. It's much more probable that a person in one of those positions would have better access to, and knowledge of new incoming TD's than HQ. It seems this approach might also help to increase the level and quality of communication within a given state or region.



As the SC/RC for NorCal I still deal with ALL td's as far as Sanctioning. When dates are set I then can asses a TD's ability. Most TD's in our area have been so for many years and there is no question on their abilitys. The new PDGA standards for Teirs will affect us somewhat because of a Series mandate that ALL NorCal Series events be at B Tier level or above. This issue has not yet been discussed at length with our committee, but it will lead to either fewer "NorCal" events or lesser standards on our part.

With the number of events that are held here each year it becomes a real chore trying just to get a schedule done. :confused:

[gang4010]

Mike - good to see that this level of oversight is present - at least in California. My statement above is more of an impression than a statement of fact. Just seems that with the explosion of courses in this part of the country - that the same level of oversight has not kept up with the new courses and their desire for sanctioned events. I'm not sure if giving the RC/SC volunteers more reponsibility is a benefit or a detriment. Could be either - depends on how volatile the positions are - the higher the turnover - the bigger the detriment.

[neonnoodle]

How it gets done is up to the PDGA.



When you or anyone says the PDGA "should" do this, whom specifically are you talking about?

I'm willing to help, but it will involve someone taking the lead. Who is that going to be? Saying the PDGA is all well and fine if you consider yourself as being part of the PDGA and are willing to step up, otherwise you are just piling something else on the over filed plates of those few who are already stretched to the limit.

Step up! Say,” Here I am! I'm committed to seeing this happen and will do whatever I can to see that it does happen!"

Then your statement about the PDGA taking care of it will ring true.

[rhett]

In SoCal almost all the PDGA tourneys were run by the same few people, and the SoCal State Coordinator was one of them, so that pretty much took care of itself.

We used to have the B-tier mandate also, but since we are pushing events out to new TDs in order to have events, we have dropped the B-tier mandate to a "must be PDGA sanctioned" mandate. Most of our events will be C-tiers in 2004, but that sure beats only having monthlies to play in. :)

[neonnoodle]

Like the new Prize Class division names the Tier names are a little confusing for 2004. C-Tiers are now pretty serious events with standards close to what B-Tiers were last year. Going from B to C is not the huge step down it was in past years. B Tiers seem to have significantly stepped up a notch.

It'll probably take a few years for us to completely understand the raised standards.

It does seem clear from the Sanctioning Agreement that the "PDGA" is taking on a greater role in monitoring and making sure that standards are being met. I'm still wondering where the buck stops and who is going to be the bearer of bad news if tourney's miss the mark.

C -Tier
- Host based on tier qualification, geographical coordination with PDGA State Representative
- All new events required to enter as C-tier, waiver by PDGA Exec. Director for first time events
which can prove they will meet B tier standards
- Must abide by exclusive radius of all higher tiered events
- No exclusivity radius with lower/same tier events
- no conflicts by weekend with Major/NT/A event within 300 mi, B event within 200 mi
- Signed Sanctioning Agreement 1 mo prior
- $50 sanction fee
- $2 player fee
- One or two-day event only
- Pro2 Division may be offered at sole option of TD
- $5 PDGA Developmental or Weekend Membership required for Pro and Am non and noncurrent
members. Junior division players are exempt from the $5 fee.
- $5 PDGA Developmental Membership available, valid for (3) months; must receive name, valid
address, phone number, email address and rights to sell/use information. PDGA
Developmental Membership will be issued soft membership card by TD and Dev. Member
Welcome Package. Rights to play in all PDGA C-tier and D-tier events. PDGA Developmental
Membership non-renewable in same calendar year.
- PDGA provides TD Scoring Package; scores by round requested to be posted at pdgatour.com
- 85% of entry fee min. in all divisions, no minimum Pro Purse

[discette]

Okay, I deleted the my post with the poll to ban Nicki from the message board. But, before I deleted it, there were a total of 22 votes. All but one voted to ban Nick.

I wonder who cast the lone NO vote?

I am still not comfortable with Nick as an Administrator. I mean he has been really groovin' on the "Who's Online".
Now we know why, being an Administrator, he can see when you are logged in and exactly wht you are doing, even if you choose to hide it. Lurkers beware, Nicki knows your lurking!!!

[rhett]

I used to think that the big "A" next to Nick's name was something else, a warning perhaps. :)

But it is a little disconcerting having Nick as an administrator since he is so passionate and unyielding in his views. i also worry about him deleting a pile of my posts so he can capture the number 2 spot! :)

[neonnoodle]

Yeah, winning a popularity contest is unlikely for me here. A testiment to my superior East Coast trash talkin' skills. Perhaps it's time to let Rhett build his Carpal lead on me again.

[rhett]

You've made up 14 on me so far today... :cool:

[slo]

...so we waited until they came in and started a stagger start last round... it actually ran pretty smoothly and the ams finished right after everyone else... maybe 10 minutes or so... maybe this is an idea...


Surely you don't start everyone on #1 as they come back in?
How does this work without messing people up? Do the foursomes pick where they want to start? I'm not doubting it worked; I'm interested in the logistics of the idea...

rhett and nick aka true carpal tunnel wannabees:

just remember 2nd place is just 1 st loser. lol!

[rhett]

I'm afraid in this case that #1 is "first luser". But I still aspire to it! :cool:

aspirations are good for you, hair farmer. they build character. keep 'em up.

(imagine someone with my profile pic calling someone else a hair farmer. ain't life funny?) :)

[disctance00]

I'm right here give me something to do! I have all the heart and desire in the world. What do you want done? I'm not spouting off for my heath here. PDGA needs help I will be one of the first ones to step up!

[neonnoodle]

See that link on the top of each page saying "CONTACT" click on it and ask around about how you can help out. A good "Thumb Breaker" I'm sure is much needed.

"Hey you! Get those results in tomorrow or hands are gonna fly!"

I don't even know who is incharge of this effort to enforce the standards this year? Nez? Couldn't be Brian. That would be the first thing to know if you're heading in that direction.

I'd encourage everyone to contact their PDGA volunteers and see what needs being done. There are tons of low commitment stuff as well to do.

[ching_lizard]

In some cases, a relative newbie steps up to TD for a already long running event - as in our case with Texas States just finished with its 8th year.

The event is was what was sanctioned, not the TD. I was simply a pretty active HFDS club member. The former organizers were experiencing a little burn-out from doing it for so many years and were ready to pass the responsibility for running the tournament over to the club. Understandably, they had some concerns about whether the club was ready to take it over or not...

I had no experiece other than running league play for the club, but I asked Don and Nez if I could step up and learn from them how to run it. I helped out for a while before they turned it over to HFDS, but the PDGA Administrator probably didn't know who I was or whether I was qualified or not. It certainly wouldn't have been "fair" for them to have said "Sorry, but this is the first time you've run a sanctioned event, so we're only allowing you to sanction it as a C-tier."

Yikes! :eek: That would've hurt the reputation of a Super Tour event that had been running for 7 years already!

Distance00: It isn't so cut n dry as you suggest it might be. I've got to imagine that many tournaments are passed down to new volunteers in a similar manner. How could you handle a situation like ours? HFDS was fortunate in that they had a willing volunteer (me) and the previous organizers weren't suffering burn-out too badly and were willing to hang onto running it long enough to train me for a year or two. But is that typical of the A-tier events everywhere?

:p [choke] I hate to admit it, but I agree with Nick on this one. [cough] :eek: It would probably take a huge effort on the part of the PDGA to get into this level of involvement with sanctioning tournaments. It's probably more of a job of the SC/RC folks, but even then, it sounds as if there isn't a lot of consistency at that level either.

I think the way it's being handled now is probably good enough. If an event does poorly, it will be reflected in the TD report and by the number of complaints the PDGA receives about it...therefore a demotion. I would guess that maybe only 1% of tournaments have those kinds of problems and that sounds like a lot of expense and effort to try and reduce that number further.

[disctance00]

When did I say it was easy or that it was so cut and dry. I don't recall saying it was or even suggesting that.

[slo]

Discstance00 doesn't even care to TD...that was Pinky, and Pinky was working up through the ranks slowly but steadily.
...getting back to saving time, Discstance00, I don't understand how staggered starts could move things along...do you mean everyone in that day's second round starts on the same hole [i.e., everyone plays 1-18]? Could you site an example where staggering has helped?
...if we're talking about the same thing, the 18th foursome would have roughly 17 holes to play when the first foursome was done...wouldn't +/-35 holes take longer, even if foursome #1 took off within minutes of the previous round being over?

[disctance00]

I'm not really sure what your asking me I've never played an event that used both shotgun and staggered starts. I have played two tournies that were staggered starts for all rounds. Dave Moody seems to be the person to ask on how well it works, he has all the info you might want. A benefit I can see for Dave when he does these staggered starts You don't have a mass flood of scorecards coming in to total up. That in itself has to be a stress reducer. Also players know when they have to tee off and where they are supposed to tee from at this time you have a brief players meeting with each group as they come for their tee time. This to me seems to be quite beneficial as you only have to talk with 4 people at a time rather than 100 or whatever may be there. Less miscommunication and more understanding on course layout etc... also players may feel more comfortable with asking questions. I don't know all the in and outs of staggered starts ask Moody for that.

[slo]

Discstance00, I was talking about what you put up about 7 pages ago:
It helps to have lunch onsite everything runs so much smoother. Staggered starts seem to work pretty well also.


But that's an informative answer, nonetheless; thanks.
Open question: Is the staggered-start option limited to one-round-per-day events? Does it mean 18 sets of Director's instructions?

Open question: Is the staggered-start option limited to one-round-per-day events?



No, but it does make shuffling difficult.


Does it mean 18 sets of Director's instructions?



Well, not necessarily 18. The beauty of the staggered start format is that you can easily handle more than 18 groups.

[slo]

The beauty of the staggered start format is that you can easily handle more than 18 groups.


Well, that absolutely does make sense. But that pretty much limits players to one-round-per-day, right? Which would seem to be the case for any event with staggered starts. I must have misinterpreted Discstance00's comment to apply towards cutting the time between rounds...It doesn't seem too keen of an idea to have more than one round, per day, in the staggered mode; not only for the player shufflage involved, but sunlight is useful if you like to find your disc!
Isn't the staggered-start mode also limited to events where everyone is pre-registered, and knows when/where to show up? [perhaps something like 'World's Biggest DG Weekend' would be an exception?]

[james_mccaine]

I think the staggered start option is sweet for tourneys with multiple divisions and slightly more people wanting to play than than a shotgun start can comfortably handle. That is my experience at least. In the Capitol of Texas Open, there were probably a total of 140ish. The divisional shuffling was apparently easily accomplished and there was ample time between rounds for all competitors. The tourney was run to perfection by Dave Moody: the staggered starts were perfectly on time and to my knowledge, everyone played two rounds of 21 holes and finished in the daylight.

[slo]

Sound's like Mr. Moody has his act together...in this particular tourney, was there any re-seeding between rounds?

[prairie_dawg]

Sound's like Mr. Moody has his act together...in this particular tourney, was there any re-seeding between rounds?



Yes, there was shuffling between rounds to get the players playing in the right order, i.e., best scores to worst scores. There is enough time after each division completes their rounds to total the cards, rearrange the playing order and post the second round tee times with names.

I was there for '03 and will be the TD for COTO '04. Dave did the staggered start perfectly and I can only hope to do as well, because I didn't see where it was might have gone bad, except maybe if players show up late for their scheduled tee times. :eek:

Moody will inform me of the areas to be aware of and hopefully will play COTO this year.

[james_mccaine]

Yes, Dave and his crew had their act together and there was reseeding between rounds. For the second round, the bottom card of each division would be the first to go. Therefore, the worst case scenario (in terms of time between rounds for a player) would be if you were on the last card of your division the first round, played very poorly and were therefore teeing off first (last card) the second round. However, I think even these people had well over an hour between rounds. It was done very well.

WAY TO GO RAY!!!!

I had to miss it this year, after finally making one in '02....

I hope to make it for COTO '04.....

[disctance00]

I missed 03' COTO...I think that you will do just fine filling in for Dave, I'm glad to hear he might be playing. :D

[slo]

Do you remember if: the second pool started going out as soon as the last of the first pool had been sent out, the first of re-seeds right after the last of the second pool off tee #1, etc.? That would just about eliminate 'down' time.

[james_mccaine]

Find the Capitol of Texas thread for 2003 and look for 5/16/03 at 9:10 p.m. That is how he did the first round.

Sorry, I don't know how to post links or I would do that.

[tbender]

Do you remember if: the second pool started going out as soon as the last of the first pool had been sent out, the first of re-seeds right after the last of the second pool off tee #1, etc.? That would just about eliminate 'down' time.



Don't remember the exact timing, but my wife was on the last card of the first round and there was a 4-6 hole space between them and the 1st card of the second round, since the staff was moving baskets and to keep some room between the cards.

[slo]

Thanks much for the input!! :)

[LouMoreno]

Slo,
Here's the link to the part Capital of Texas Open thread where Moody assigned the first round tee times.

COTO thread (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=93277&page=16&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=365&fpart=21&vc=1)

If you keep scrolling through the rest of the thread you'll see that a lot of players liked the format.

[slo]

Again, much thanks; just checking in on a friend's computer here in Riverside, CA, but I've got that earmarked.
...anybody who likes Arthur Lee and Love has GOT to see the new "Forever Changes Concert" video!!!

[morgan]

Here's an idea to make the lunch break be 1 hour instead of 3 hours. When the first group gets back the TD sets up lunch and people can eat all they want. By the time the last groups get back, there is no food left, so you can start playing right away since the slow people don't have to eat since the food is all gone. The slow groups will learn that if they want to eat, they have to play quicker and get back early.... Then everybody will play quicker if they want to eat.

You snooze, you lose.

[prairie_dawg]

Here's an idea to make the lunch break be 1 hour instead of 3 hours. When the first group gets back the TD sets up lunch and people can eat all they want. By the time the last groups get back, there is no food left, so you can start playing right away since the slow people don't have to eat since the food is all gone. The slow groups will learn that if they want to eat, they have to play quicker and get back early.... Then everybody will play quicker if they want to eat.

You snooze, you lose.



Morgan,

IMO you have missed the point on staggered starts to which you replied. Everyone gets to eat lunch and more people get to play in the tournament than is posssible with a shotgun start. An that Snooze you Lose crack is meaningless. :eek:

Ray

[ching_lizard]

Methinks somebody must've missed his lunch at a staggered start tournament recently...eh Morgan? :D Being hungry tends to make me grumpy too! :D

As is his idea prarie dog. :D It's the worst I ever heard.