2003 Pro Worlds, Flagstaff, Az. Let the rumors begin

Yes, planning is already underway for next year's worlds. Here's some info.

- There are currently two permenant courses in Flagstaff. Preliminary WCP for each was around 49. We will be adding pin placements to make both courses more difficult.

- Planning is underway for a third permanent course.

- Host hotel will be the Little America (http://www.littleamerica.com/flagstaff/).

- There will be a course on the grounds of the hotel.

- pictures of the NAU course (http://community.webshots.com/album/41682233omaGlq)

- You will want to fly into Phoenix and drive to Flagstaff (about two hours). Las Vegas is about 4 hours away.

- You can expect highs in the 80's, lows in the 50's, and afternoon thunderstorms.

- Flagstaff is at 7,000' elevation. Discs fly overstable at altitude.

[ck34]

Looks like a good idea to play the Tahoe Supertour next June to see if this old heart can handle that Flagstaff altitude for several days.

The heart shouldn't have any problems, it's the lungs that get a workout. The elevation changes are pretty mild (at least at the two perm. courses), so that's not a huge issue, though it is noticeable.

[exczar]

I hope that you are getting good rates at Little America. It looks very nice. I also hope that strange smoke doesn't carry farther in the thin air as well, or the Little America folks will have half of the Little Competitors taking their Little Behinds out of their Little Premises. Have you given the LA staff an idea of the demographics of the attendees?

Thanks for the update. The course and the area looks beautiful, and the weather certainly will be cooler than in Houston!

Good points Bill, I'll forward your concerns to Dan Ginnelly.

[rhett]

I didn't notice much problem in that regard at all in Miami. (And I notice that stuff!) I could smell it on people once in a while when we crammed on board the single working elevator, but don't recall ever getting "clouded" at the hotel. Same thing at the courses. It was a pretty dang clean event, and I thank everyone for that!

I heard Ginnelly was moving to Miami next week and would try to run the show from there...

[exczar]

/clipart/smile.gif
Good one, JH. See you in Hou...

[exczar]

Jim,

Please don't forward my "concerns" to Dan. Occasionally I make a post I later regret. The 12:22 post was one of those, and I apologize.

I have every confidence in Dan, and I'm sure that he doesn't need comments from the peanut gallery.

I guess the formula of {Contributions} times {"helpful comments"} equals a constant is starting to catch up to me...<FONT FACE="WINGDINGS">L</FONT>

Here's an interactive map of Flagstaff -
http://www.flagmap.com/Flagstaff_Map.html

Basically, most of the hotels are along Butler Ave. Flagstaff is small enough that no matter where you stay, you'll be center to everything.

John that sounds like a good idea, but I think he'll have enough of a challenge running it from Scottsdale.

Maybe after it's all over, he'll retire permanantly to San Saba. I think I'd want to if I were in charge of a Supertour and Worlds in the same year.

Now there's something I hadn't thought of: the San Saba retirement home for burned out Worlds TD's. Better send Hubie down, too. Anybody see him any more?

The winner of the 2003 dgwc gets a lifetime pass to play for free in San Saba courtesy of John Houck.

....and free lodging of course.

[keithjohnson]

one thing you can be sure of is that dan will make sure that if they need another course for worlds...he will have the shelly sharpe course trucked in /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif
helllll with 500 acres the little america could have all 4 courses on site /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gifwcp could be 60 and you could have true par 4's and 5's at the worlds without fake ob and with real water and tough uphill and downhill shots......i look forward to seeing that area again....i used to vacation around there for several years before moving to az and it is a beautiful area crossroads between the grand canyon and vegas.....

[keithjohnson]

and john......i'm first in line at san saba....i burned out before the worlds /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Come on down, Keith -- and bring some cigars. I don't smoke cigars, but it seems like we should have some if we're all going to sit around and complain about the good old days.

"The heat in Minnesota was nothing compared to the mosquitoes in Port Arthur." "Oh yeah, well my top sponsor pulled out 7 days before the event." "That's nothing -- someone stole all 72 baskets from my Worlds the night before the event..."

A good chunk of that 500 acres is set aside for other recreational activities at the hotel and won't be used for DG. I'm not sure how much property they are willing to let us use, but if I had my way, I'd put in one helluva par60-70 course. Not a whole lot of water or elevation, but there are some natural washes running through the property, so I'm sure Dan will come up with something interesting.

Some of the new long placements at Thorpe are getting blasted by the rec. players. They're used to pitch &amp; putt, and don't like the idea of having to make two good shots to get to the green.

<FONT SIZE=" 2">WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA................</FONT>

[keithjohnson]

last i checked rec players aren't invited to the PRO worlds......and please don't let dan design the course /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif....he'll want to make it a wcp 40 like shelly....who is going to design it ...a committee or pdga designer or how about you and i and russel and lance go up there and make the best shim sham/non-shim sham front 9 and back 9 the worlds has ever seen???? /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif
kidding about the shim sham part but not about the 4 of us designing it part

[Moderator005]

Keith,

If you design a course in Flagstaff like Amelia 1 or Amelia 2 it will be AWESOME! Please don't create anything like Kendall 2 though.

/clipart/smile.gif -Jeff

They may not get invited to Worlds, but they will be playing the course a lot between now and then. They feel it's THEIR course, so I can kind of understand the whining.

The "everything is a par-3" mentality bites us in the [*****] again.

[rshelt]

Thanks for apoligising Bill, because I was going to ask what the heck brought that line up. I'm sure LA is used to alot of things like that considering most that live in and around Flag are naturalists and hippies. It's kind of like Norcal, or Oregon.

[rshelt]

Keith, I think that Danny can make a course as good if not better than anybody. I would not even consider making a world class course without the help of Danny. You need to play the Jerry tourney next week and you can see how nice a course Danny can make when he's given the proper space. Believe me the Little America course will be one of the best the worlds has seen. Danny has already been there twice, planning the course. Also I guarantee that Jim and I will have some input, as well as Chris Gibbs. They are also already working on McPhearson for the 4th course.

Actually Russ, I don't hold the Jerry course in the highest esteem. It's got some great holes (16 &amp; 18), but it has too many little dinkers (par 2's).

It could be made a much more challenging course than it is, and hopefully the temp course for Worlds will be designed to be tougher.

[rshelt]

Yea Jim bash the Jerry course before Keith even gets to see it. Most of us(except for Jim) love the Jerry course, and also think it's the best course in az. Wish it was perm. because it would be a great course for Worlds. And I wasn't asking you anyways. Even if it's not in your "highest esteem", it at least has to be on your "High esteem" list.

I didn't "bash" it, I criticized it, constructively I think.

I love the course, but it could be even better. The land is awesome but there are a ton of short holes and only two 2-shot holes. My calculations for WCP came out to 65.4 which equates to 49 for 18 holes.

Personally, I think the other temp course in that area is better, The Peaks at Old Munds (too bad we couldn't play it this year).

[keithjohnson]

russ you know i'm just kidding dan about this as i was with him in vegas with you all at dinner that night and we talked of how the shelly course could be made tougher for the memorial and then it ended up being the same as always because of flow of play.......i just had to pusssify 2 courses in miami worlds for flow of play and it sukked royally.......now pros in flagstaff you don't have to worry about as much unless you are going with back to back rounds like we did in miami....i am only hoping that with pros coming that you have a course that has a wcpar close to 54 with the space that is there instead of making it flow.....sort of like how minnesota had north valley ....some shorter holes but several 2 and 3 shot holes to make it challenging.....
remember i don't care about the length of them as much as MAKING YOU THINK ABOUT THE SHOT to make to get it there

and jim......bull crapppp about the locals..... i've had it with golfers whining about making things tougher(they should whine when things are made EASIER)....have other pin positions......we did that at kendall and moved the baskets every month so the locals can LEARN different shots and STILL play the baby course once every three months and it worked great on all accts(ken climo's -6 on the c positions pro pads and -14 on the a positions short pads being the records)...i can say that out of the 32 men at am worlds that played the pro pads c positions only 1 shot 54 and the average was almost 59 for the round.....50 pin positions on kendall 1 and the first park in florida with 36 holes in one park.....

and jeff....amelia 2 would have been much better with rounds split up as the holes were much shorter than original design.....hole 11(over the horse fence)would have teed from the jr flags to the pin 470 feet ahead to the right where the 2 large trees by the road were as one example...and don't get me started on kendall 2......i was lucky to have it at all the way things were going and it did have about half of the holes challenging......not too bad with 8 days to work with /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Keith, that's the problem with following a Steady Ed design for Rec players. They get spoiled by the easy play and hate it when the course is made tougher. Look at the "A" tees in Tucson. That's what everyone starts on, that's what they become accustomed to, and most are afraid to challenge themselves and play the "B" tees. And heaven forbid anyone play the "C's".

The same thing is happening in Flag. Players got used to the short course, and freak out when the pins are moved back to longer positions.

Oh, and the "Par-3" mentality might have something to do with that too. In fact, one of the ways they've tried to resolve the issue in Flagstaff is posting "recreational par" as 4 or 5 on many of the new pin positions. I don't know if it's helping or not.

[keithjohnson]

moving the pins IS the way to go on course changes....that is why tucson will never change ....the baskets don't move so there is no incentive to learn anything else.....if you move the PINS......they have no choice if they want to play.....they HAVE to play to the new basket location from short or long tees or not play....most of them may whine......but THEY WILL PLAY them over not playing at all.....EVERY SINGLE TIME.....i've seen it all of florida and phoenix and the rest of the country that moves baskets......golfers will play to where the basket is located....not where they want it to be

and please tell me when you guys are going to meet to plan the course..i would love to see it

[rshelt]

Hole 11 is 2 shot. And when you can birdie holes 3,4,5,8,B,D,13(another 2 shot)14,15(stump)and 17, even half the time, let me know. 5,11,d &amp; 13 you are very happy just to par.(like in par3)
Keith, Because of Danny's wonderful computer skills(just under my skills) someone has to stand up for him. Are you playing the Jerry? It's one you don't want to miss. Forget the playing, it's a great camping trip.

And that's another thing! Why the [*****] are we using letter holes mixed in with the numbers? We set the course up exactly once per year, it's been 24 holes for 5 years now, let's number it 1-24.

11 &amp; 13 are not two-shot holes unless you hit a tree. They can be dueced with a "great" drive, and with a "good" drive, you are putting from long range. They are challenging par-3s, but they are not two-shot holes like 16 &amp; 18.

[rhett]

How do you really feel about it, Jim? /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Russ, we better quit talking about this non-sanctioned event before Rhett has it (and us) banned from the board.

Back to the topic of worlds:
Dan can design some great holes, and I'm sure, if he's given decent land will have an incredible course for worlds. It certainly won't be the same design that I'd come up with, but most probably think that's a good thing.

[rshelt]

On 11 you better throw 500' to be able to birdie, and even then you still probably won't, because, if you remember, it's 400 to the base of the hill, then another 150 up the hill. No one birdied it last year. Last year we moved the basket farther up the hill and left. Jim just because YOU can throw 475', you must remember that most of us throw 375', so like on hole 13, which is 480', after my best shot, I'm still looking at a 100' upshot. Add trees, and you have lots of 2 shot golf. There are more people that play my way than your way, so you have to take that into consideration when reviewing courses, or your going to have people wondering what your talking about when you say that courses have to many 2's and 3's. And 13 goes uphill. And saying that because it isn't a 800' hole it can't be a 2 shot hole, well that's a bunch of bull, because you can have heavily wooded 300 to 350' holes that are 2 shot every time. Just because you occasionally get through on hole 5, doesn't make it an easy 2, even though it's only 300'.

As far as the letter holes go, I heard that the course was at first a 18 holer, then they got alot of people and had to add holes one year(a-d then e,f) and kept the old hole #s because they already used all of the number blocks(1-18) on them. Then they made makeshift signs and used letters so people would not be confused. Then, I think Paul made those letter signs instead of more number blocks, and since then that's what it's been. Lazy I guess. Hey, how about you make tee markers 19-24 and we can avoid it this year. I would, but I'm to busy making trophies, and I don't care as much as you.

The letter/number thing was a rhetorical question. My understanding is that it was originally 9 holes, became 18, and eventually expanded to 24. It's been 24 for more than half the life of the tournament now, so it's beyond time to number it correctly. It's much more confusing to play 1-10, then A-D then 11-16, then E-F then 17-18, except to the 3 or 4 people (out of over 100 participants) that played it way back in the early 90s.

I can't even picture which holes are 11 &amp; 13 because of the [*****] up numbering system. I think your estimates are a little high on some of those holes, I'll bring my range finder and we'll check it out. If a good drive from a weenie-arm like you can get within 100' of the pin, I don't consider it a two-shot hole. That's one shot, plus a long putt. And it's not just me, but Lance, Milldog, Gibbs, Barley, Tonga, Dominic, Jacob and even Danny (when he does his 360) can toss well over 400'.

Play in the Masters division, and we'll shorten up some of the holes for you.

[rshelt]

So are you making numbers for 19-24? That was my question that you didn't answer. Get off your [*****] and make them if it bugs you so much. Think about the number blocks, and then the lazyness and that's why it hasn't changed. So don't be lazy yourself and do something about it. You weren't even around the year it changed from 18 to 24, but you talk like you were. And you can tell you don't remember the course. Just the kind of idiot thinking that people should play in the masters like it's an easier division.
You look pretty stupid argueing about holes you can't even picture. And I guarantee you that only YOU,Mildog and Danny can throw accurately over 400, but then again there was Nau last weekend, so maybe only Danny.

Since there are only two holes at NAU that can use a drive over 400' (unless you count 18 which would need a lefty roller to make the low cieling, dogleg left, and then go uphill) my and Milldog's lousy results don't prove anything.

Actually, I was there the first year it went to 24, but I never played it as 18. So I was there the year it changed. It made sense that year because they laid out the original 18, then way more people showed up then Danny was expecting so they went out and found room for 6 more holes. We've been using the same layout ever since, so it should be renumbered.

I've got a few of the markers that we've used for letter holes in the past. I'll gladly relabel them to be numbers instead. I think the others are in Danny's attic.

I never said Masters was easier. In fact if you read much of my ranting here, you'll see that I think the Masters division has more baggers then advanced. I think the Masters age should be moved to 45.

[rhett]

Speaking of baggers, is there a plan in place to cap the ratings of the Pro Masters division like there is for Advanced Masters? It's hard to argue for one and against the other!

[keithjohnson]

sorry russ not playing jerry....i hear from all concerned that it is a great camping/party/golf weekend.....but i probably won't play again until later this year......could change though as i didn't get to play against anybody for bag tags in miami so it has been since 4th of july since last tourney......and i am serious about wanting to help with designing the course.....some of the ones people did like at the worlds in miami were not over 350 feet but still a challenge where you were rewarded for a good shot.....NOT a long throw....
and remember jim can throw over 400 feet just not at the basket /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif
i'm looking forward to kicking his higher player rated... at the next event we both play in

[billr]

Is there a time line for laying out the new courses? Is there a chance anything will be done by the Memorial?

Like Russ said, Dan has been to the property a few times already and is starting to work on ideas.

Also the other course that may be used already had an object course design, but the parks dept. nixed about half that. I think they'll use 9 of the original holes, and the locals have some ideas about where to put the new 9.

I haven't seen either of these courses yet.

If they're not laid out in the next few months though, they probably won't be done by the Memorial.

[rhett]

Keith, come out to Santa Maria and take my #095. I dare ya! /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

At least come to La Mirada at the end of September.

[rshelt]

I'm sure that by the Memorial the temp courses will be marked. There are 2 perm courses that we're using for worlds, that are always open, but in shorter placements. I'm sure if enough are interested, they may move some a week prior to the Memorial. But also remember that in march, Flagstaff can still have snow on the ground, and temps could be in the 30s. Also it's a 2 hour drive from phx.

[keithjohnson]

rhett you're more than likely going to have to go to vegas to live up to your agreement and i'll still make the same bet as before....your dollar bill of death against my 100 dollar bill of victory and your stinking high numbered tag......i could have had 3 or at least 32 with out any sleep and you and willy go and end up with higher numbers /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

I heard a rumor that DGD will be in the top 10...

(I left it wide open for the trash talk)

AP, you are crazy. Whats your best round at Jerry. The course record is -9 and a couple of -8's. That's with Cup and Danny playing it more than once. There are some almost impossible 2's on that course and its not just 16 and 18. You must not remember the course very well at all. I don't think a course needs to get any harder than Jerry.

My best? Probably about 3 under. All I'm saying is that there are a lot of duece holes out there. According to my stats, WCP came out to around 49 when adjusted for 18 holes. That not a whole lot harder then most of the Phoenix courses.

I think the course is great, and appropriate for a multi-division tourney like we use it for. If we were to use it for Pro Worlds (which I know we're not), it would need to be made much tougher to prevent Ken and the rest from throwing double digits under par.

More true par-4s, fewer par-2s.

[rshelt]

Get 'em Lance. No such thing in golf as a par2.

There shouldn't be, but putting is too easy, so it's there.
Dr. Fred and Jim Palmeri to the rescue!

If there are no par-2's, then par at the Jerry course is at least 74 because we know there are two par-4s out there on this 24 hole course (and 18 might really be a par-5). So that means the record is really 11 down.

And according to you guys, there are some other holes that are not duecable, so that means they are par-4s also. So what is it, is everything a par-3, or is the course record about -15?

[rshelt]

The course designer, TD, and course pro calls it a par 72. -10,is the record(Pete Johnson?). These are the official stats for THIS course. If you want to submit a change, please do so by filing it with the TD 1 week prior to the tournament so that the cards(probably old Memorial ones) can be changed. (sharpie)

I guess some can call it a par 75, with 11,16,&amp;18 being par 4(for those who care). So now when you shoot a 72 or 73 you won't feel so bad/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif Wcp for Danny is 65, for you or me it's more like 69. And when there's only 1 world class golfer playing(Dan), does wcp really matter? Discgolf has already taken away the term "eagle", now you want to take away the term "ace" as well! Still if it takes you 66 to 70 shots to finish the course, you played well no matter if you call it over or under par.

Ace == 1, no matter the par.

I'm not taking away eagle, in fact I'm adding it by calling true par 4's par 4's. If you get a two on 16, or a 3 on 18, that's a [*****] eagle. I'm only taking away the term "birdie" when you get a two on the [*****] little 180' holes.

-- dman mey homebrew is storong . I can'tytpe wroth a shyte.

[keithjohnson]

hey russ....this is not to cause trouble but have any of the golfers listed below played in the jerry last year....these 8 players are at(or in lance's case 1 stroke off) wcp so i'm curious if it is worth it for me to go up there to play.....don't most of these guys play up there???
(except shircore)

you said ..."Wcp for Danny is 65, for you or me it's more like 69. And when there's only 1 world class golfer playing(Dan), does wcp really matter?"

Steve Wisecup 1467 AZ USA 1013 MPO
Dan Ginnelly 3591 AZ USA 1012 MPO
David Dollar 9434 AZ USA 999 MPO
Mike Milne 14602 AZ USA 998 MPO
Harvey Brandt 299 AZ USA 996 MPM
Dave Shircore 3867 AZ USA 995 MPM
Jon Drummond 7350 AZ USA 992 MPO
Lance Plummer 10759 AZ USA 985 MPM

[keithjohnson]

by the way...... my player rating is 948 the same as the top advanced player in points 2 years in a row(in az)....that means dan would only beat me by 10 strokes per round(calculated for 24 holes)...does jerry pay down to 12th place open???
/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

also if i come up would you and lance and dan go with me and jim to little america saturday after distance to see the area to set up the course???.....jim says it is about 45 minutes to an hour away so we would have a good 3 hours to look around and help design a course with all 5 of us there......more incentive to get me to play /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

AP says that there are par 2's because putting is too easy.

Fact is, getting to putting range is too easy on par two holes. Putting is as difficult on a par 5 as it is on a par 2!

Fact is, there are holes where putting range cannot be reached on the drive. These holes may be par 3's, 4's or 5's...but it aint because of putting.

I'd love to see some Stats on Kenny's "perfect round" (see post in worlds thread by Rick Rothestien). He one-putted every single hole. There were 11 holes under 400', and he dueced them all. There were 7 holes over 500', and he got threes on all of them. If were were to call all those holes that are over 500' par-4s since they are not really dueceable, then Ken shot -18. Is this because:

1. His drives or approaches were so close that they were drop in putts
or
2. Putting range for top pros is 35'-50' radius circle around the basket, so all you have to do is land in that huge area and you have a resonable chance to hole out in one.

I'm not sure, but I'd guess that it had more to do with #2 then #1.

[rhett]

I watched Ken in the final round of a SoCal Pro Championships tourney once and had the revelation that disc golf is a simple game, and you only have to do two things:

1) Sink all your putts within 45 feet

2) Drive within 45

Simple, really. /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

Good one AP! Climo drove all the holes that were under 400' for birdy. He was playing great. Some say the best round ever! I imagine he was putting pretty good too (Seeing as how it was the greatest round ever).

And...you always start this dookie about the pros hitting all their putts 35 to 50. I have watched my share of world class pros in major events and I have seen something completely different. It is not easy outside of 35'. When Climo is rolling, he hits most from inside 40'. His competition seem to miss most outside 30' when Climo is making their heads spin.

Also, on probably the most deciding hole of all divisions in the finals...Des nailed a putt from your 35' range. It came out. Juliana could have cut the lead to 3 from inside 25' and she missed badly.

The entire belief that putting is too easy in disc golf is idiotic. If you take every hole from every course in the world...at least half of the holes on the planet are drivable for a park job. This is the reason for your par 2's and huge sub-par rounds. There isn't much that will change until the sport grows out of the parks and into courses that are built for the sport.

[rshelt]

Yea, what he said.

[rshelt]

Danny is the only golfer over 1000 playing the Jerry. Dollar is 999, but is not even in Dans' class. Shircore is a 995, that tells you how correct the ratings are(sorry Dave). Keith you should play, because with a 948 ranking, you'll have lots of competetion in pros.
Jim, I didn't say you got rid of the term eagle, discgolf did by calling everything par3. You want to get rid of the term ace. How bout a duceace. I like that term, ok I'm turned into a par2 believer now.

I'll type this real slow so you understand Russ.
Ace == hole in one, no matter the par.

Randy, in ball golf, what are the stats for # of putts the average pro takes?

In disc golf, what are the stats? For, say shots inside 50'?

Yes, I'm talking top pros in both sports.

[keithjohnson]

ok russ....but wcp is based off of a 1000 rated player.....so all 8 of those players would "in theory"shoot wcp which you say is 65.....that put me at best in 9th or 10th(because your rating is better than mine)and even though jim's is also.....he has no chance against me in my retired talent mode /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif
also i am serious about the little america deal on saturday after distance..will you talk to danny and lance and see if they would be willing to go.....i don't want to make the drive and not be able to check that out.....thanks

The WCP spreadsheet from last year.

<TABLE BORDER=1><TR><TD>Course Name (Config)</TD><TD></TD><TD># Holes</TD><TD>AHP</TD><TD>WCP</TD><TD>WCP-18 </TD></TR><TR><TD> Jerry Garcia-24</TD><TD></TD><TD>24</TD><TD>2.72</TD><TD>65.39</TD><TD>49.04</TD></TR></TABLE>

<TABLE BORDER=1><TR><TD>Player Name</TD><TD>PDGA Rating</TD><TD>Avg Rnd</TD><TD>Average Hole Par</TD><TD>Local Rating</TD><TD></TD><TD>R1</TD><TD>R2</TD><TD>R3 </TD></TR><TR><TD>Dan Ginnelly</TD><TD>1001 </TD><TD>65.33</TD><TD>2.73</TD><TD>1000</TD><TD></TD><TD>64</TD><TD>68</TD><TD>64 </TD></TR><TR><TD>David Dollar</TD><TD>979 </TD><TD>69.33</TD><TD>2.77</TD><TD>968</TD><TD></TD><TD>68</TD><TD>69</TD><TD>71 </TD></TR><TR><TD>Lance Plummer</TD><TD>977 </TD><TD>68.33</TD><TD>2.72</TD><TD>976</TD><TD></TD><TD>66</TD><TD>72</TD><TD>67 </TD></TR><TR><TD>Mike Milne</TD><TD>970 </TD><TD>72.33</TD><TD>2.84</TD><TD>944</TD><TD></TD><TD>73</TD><TD>71</TD><TD>73 </TD></TR><TR><TD>Chris Gibbs</TD><TD>948 </TD><TD>69</TD><TD>2.62</TD><TD>971</TD><TD></TD><TD>68</TD><TD>70</TD><TD>69 </TD></TR><TR><TD>Steve Wisecup</TD><TD>1001 </TD><TD>69</TD><TD>2.88</TD><TD>971</TD><TD></TD><TD>66</TD><TD>69</TD><TD>72 </TD></TR><TR><TD>Jim Garnett</TD><TD>939 </TD><TD>70.67</TD><TD>2.64</TD><TD>958</TD><TD></TD><TD>72</TD><TD>70</TD><TD>70 </TD></TR><TR><TD>Russel Shelton</TD><TD>940 </TD><TD>70.67</TD><TD>2.64</TD><TD>958</TD><TD></TD><TD>70</TD><TD>74</TD><TD>68 </TD></TR><TR><TD>John Parker</TD><TD>934 </TD><TD>72</TD><TD>2.66</TD><TD>947</TD><TD></TD><TD>73</TD><TD>71</TD><TD>72 </TD></TR><TR><TD>Barley</TD><TD></TD><TD>72.33</TD><TD>-</TD><TD>944</TD><TD></TD><TD>68</TD><TD>75</TD><TD>74 </TD></TR><TR><TD>Ron Klein</TD><TD>953 </TD><TD>70.67</TD><TD>2.70</TD><TD>958</TD><TD></TD><TD>73</TD><TD>72</TD><TD>67 </TD></TR><TR><TD>Ed Kubinski</TD><TD>945 </TD><TD>71.67</TD><TD>2.70</TD><TD>950</TD><TD></TD><TD>69</TD><TD>75</TD><TD>71 </TD></TR><TR><TD>Scott Carle</TD><TD>936 </TD><TD>70.33</TD><TD>2.62</TD><TD>960</TD><TD></TD><TD>71</TD><TD>71</TD><TD>69 </TD></TR><TR><TD>Steve Johnston</TD><TD>937 </TD><TD>74</TD><TD>2.75</TD><TD>931</TD><TD></TD><TD>72</TD><TD>76</TD><TD>74 </TD></TR><TR><TD>Jeff Burns</TD><TD>950 </TD><TD>74.33</TD><TD>2.82</TD><TD>928</TD><TD></TD><TD>73</TD><TD>77</TD><TD>73 </TD></TR><TR><TD>Paul Barcus</TD><TD>939 </TD><TD>73</TD><TD>2.72</TD><TD>939</TD><TD></TD><TD>78</TD><TD>71</TD><TD>70 </TD></TR><TR><TD>Shawn Atwood</TD><TD>931 </TD><TD>76</TD><TD>2.79</TD><TD>915</TD><TD></TD><TD>78</TD><TD>79</TD><TD>71</TD></TR></TABLE>

Jim, drives in the two sports are comparable. Both are about flight.

Upshots are less comparable. The upshot in BG is much more difficult because it is the mixture of flight and control of spin on the ball to get it to behave once it hits the ground and begins to ROLL.

Comparing putting between the two sports is ludicrous. Now we are talking about the difference between flight and rolling across contours on the ground.

Yes, they both take concentration. So does shooting free throws. They both require aiming and controlling speed. So does shooting free throws. But which is more comparable?

Shooting free throws is much closer to putting in disc golf than disc golf to BG. It is flight of an object into a target.

So...the whole premise of trying to base par in DG off of BG putting standards is nuts. It is completely different. I agree with you on par 2's. Why? Because I'm not locked into DG being BG.

I could care less if we can't birdie par 2's. What's the big deal about having birdies if players are shooting 10 under par? Heck, that means shooting birdies is par! /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Like I said. If you were able to stretch the sport out of it's cramped quarters, you could design courses on which the scores were comparable to BG. It would require a majority of holes where the basket cannot be reached off the drive.

Two skilled shots to have a putt. That's all it takes. Aces and eagles will always be a much bigger part of DG than BG because throwing objects into targets will always be easier than striking them through the air and then hoping they roll along the ground and into a little hole.

[sandalman]

Aces and eagles will always be a much bigger part of DG than BG until so many targets are not reachable on the drive (oops, i meant first throw /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif)

* The entire belief that putting is too easy in disc golf is idiotic. *

Putting in DG is too easy -- at least to pole holes on wide open holes. It's hand grenade golf, more like disc archery than DG. Get close and you're down.

Common course design tends to leave lots to be desired with way too much contemporary emphasis on distance (it's sort of a testosterone thing as far as I can tell). What's more interesting are courses that challenge one's technical skills of negotiating varied complex narrow pathways in route to a sweat spot putt at a challenging directional target.

Not only must one learn a variety of curved putting skills when playing to these sorts of targets, but precise approach shots (and/or drives) really count. There are many areas around some directional target where holing out from as close as 7 feet can have one sweating bullets.

Many of these aspect of the game of Golf are virtually non existant in the common hand grenade DG, where putting, targets, and course design is too easy. Which is also why there are way too many courses with ratings around and under 50.

As an example, a week ago I found myself near Steilacom in Tacoma WA and snuck out between events of the kid's swim meet to play a quick round from the pro tees. My score on this first full round ever was hand grenade 5 under, with three missed putts from within hand grenade range.

IMO, the fairways were way to wide, targets way to open and way to easy -- gosh, you just need to get near, it doesn't matter on which side, just near and you've got a birdie chance... Such BS, as least as far as comparison of DG to Ball Golf challenges go.

For my tastes, it's far more interesting to play to a much tighter and more challenging course with significantly more varied and challenging target locations and deflection formats. It takes a few rounds to get used to the higher degree of challenge with a few months for some to learn the fine nuances.

Guess what -- people of all skills eventually adapt to the extra challenges quite well. Not that you'll ever see them in a PDGA event... Challenging the pros with new challenges would be too radical.

On most BG courses, you can sink a putt from any which side. No BS involved there. The only way to get DG putting comparable to BG is to have to roll the disc into a slot in the ground. It would take great skill!

Fred, I think playing your version of DG would be alot of fun. (Really...not the slot kind!) /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

AP writes:
"I'd love to see some Stats on Kenny's "perfect round" (see post in worlds thread by Rick Rothestien). He one-putted every single hole. There were 11 holes under 400', and he dueced them all. There were 7 holes over 500', and he got threes on all of them. If were were to call all those holes that are over 500' par-4s since they are not really dueceable, then Ken shot -18."

But AP, what if there were some par 2's? Then it really wasn't a -18.

There were 6 holes listed as under 300 (242,248,252,279,280,280). Even without seeing any of them, I can tell you none of those fit *my* definition of par 2. But they might fit yours. (You're the guy with the 340-foot par 2 in Tucson.) Anyway, it'd be interesting to know if any of those 6 were downhill and/or completely wide open.

Let's assume, just for fun, none were par 2. That means Pro Par was 61. Moody's Blue is also Pro Par 61. WCP at Tourney is 52, while at Moody's Blue it is 56.

So a Perfect Round (43, which is -18 Pro Par) requires a 1086 at Tourney (which Climo did), but it would require a 1108 at Moody's Blue.

What's this mean? I don't know, I'm just babbling.

rodney

[ck34]

It will be interesting to see what the actual WCP of the Tourney course was during the round Climo shot the 43. It's likely in the top 10 best rounds but I'm not sure it will be the very best at least from a stats standpoint. I at least got to see a few holes of his round because I was measuring driving distance on Tourney hole 7 for each division. BTW, his drive was about 360'. The big guns were Brinster and Lundmark with 453' and 459' air shots. Grider threw a roller in that dewey, choppy grass 477'!

Assuming I'm cut-and-pasting the right scores from the right rounds, using 12/31/2001 ratings makes it a 1077 round (50.85 WCP).

rodney

It's 328' Rodney.

[rhett]

When you calculate the WCP do you throw out Climo's score since he was obviously on fire and shooting way over his rating? I mean if you include his score and his rating doesn't it skew the WCP down from where it would normally be?

I think you need all the scores, some will be above normal, and some below. Averages (assming there are enough scores) will make it right.

I'll defer to Chuck as to why it doesn't get thrown out; but if I do throw it out, I get 50.92 instead of 50.85, which would make a 43 about a 1078 instead of 1077.

rodney

[ck34]

I had a discussion with some ratings guys about how a player's prior rating can theoretically pull down the WCP so a player's great round won't seem as good. However, with so many top rated players contributing to the WCP calculation for that round, the impact of Ken's high rating is minimal. If you have only 10 players for the WCP calc, it might shift the number a little.

Without seeing the “real” hole averages yet for the tourney course, I am going to guess. I do follow the stats pretty closely though, so my guesses should be in the ballpark. /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

Knowing the course, the round truly was amazing…

<TABLE BORDER=1><TR><TD>Hole </TD><TD>Distance</TD><TD>Gimp's Guess at "Tournament" average, not WCA</TD><TD>Kenny's Score</TD><TD>Description </TD></TR><TR><TD>1</TD><TD>651</TD><TD>3.6</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>Nice two shot hole onto a slightly elevated green. Nice three. </TD></TR><TR><TD>2</TD><TD>280</TD><TD>2.7</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>Short hole onto a hill. Leaves difficult putt if not parked </TD></TR><TR><TD>3</TD><TD>600</TD><TD>3.3</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>Nice two shot hole. Must get past the trees for an approach with lake on the right </TD></TR><TR><TD>4</TD><TD>242</TD><TD>2.3</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>Easy par two around a tree. OB street on both sides close. </TD></TR><TR><TD>5</TD><TD>326</TD><TD>2.7</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>Nice shot with ob past the basket and on the left. Very easy for top pros in general </TD></TR><TR><TD>6</TD><TD>555</TD><TD>3.2</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>Nice two shot hole with a guardian tree on the right of the pin and ob along the left side </TD></TR><TR><TD>7</TD><TD>562</TD><TD>3.4</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>A little more tricky than the last one with a patch of trees on the right, ob on the left and a more guarded basket. </TD></TR><TR><TD>8</TD><TD>280</TD><TD>2.8</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>Nice annie hole with trees on the right and street along the left and back side. Easy to go ob here if it is windy. </TD></TR><TR><TD>9</TD><TD>344</TD><TD>3.1</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>Nice annie shot over trees with guardian oaks along the right side of the fairway. </TD></TR><TR><TD>10</TD><TD>426</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>Real distance here is 350 - 426 must be a typo, tunnel shot through trees to an open green. Very Dueceable, but not easy. </TD></TR><TR><TD>11</TD><TD>248</TD><TD>2.7</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>Touch turnover through the woods. </TD></TR><TR><TD>12</TD><TD>334</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>Straight throw through the woods with a slight fade at the end. </TD></TR><TR><TD>13</TD><TD>335</TD><TD>2.8</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>Hyzer over the pond, ob in the back </TD></TR><TR><TD>14</TD><TD>523</TD><TD>3.4</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>Dogleg right over the pond. Requires two nice placement shots. </TD></TR><TR><TD>15</TD><TD>613</TD><TD>3.6</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>Ob street to the right, ob pond to the left, 50 foot fairway with trees to the right and the left on the hyzer approach. Nice three </TD></TR><TR><TD>16</TD><TD>252</TD><TD>2.3</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>Easy hyzer with a guardian tree </TD></TR><TR><TD>17</TD><TD>279</TD><TD>2.7</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>Straight shot with trees guarding the basket on both sides. </TD></TR><TR><TD>18</TD><TD>548</TD><TD>3.2</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>Nice dogleg right. Nice three.</TD></TR></TABLE>

[ck34]

In the future, some course configs will have "official" WCPs listed in the course directory. For casual play, a hot round won't be impacted by the dynamics of the conditions and ratings of the other players. However, I think the right thing to do is to always generate the WCP for each round, like we do in the database, so that primarily weather and other factors (seasonal foliage) are accounted for.

I wondered about that, Chuck. That is, does a course (config) ever get assigned an official WCP, or does it always vary from round to round? I suspect the answer to that question is not an easy one, but may provide insight on the goals and intent of the Ratings System.

I assume the fabulously intelligent members of the new Ratings Committee will be able to enlighten us on such matters in the months to come.

rodney

[ck34]

At some point, the Ratings team will provide WCP data for each course as a popdown list for the directory. Course pros can then review the data. If they wish to call certain rounds "normal", these WCPs can be designated as "official" by them for those configs. They can be used for course info signs and the source for assigning individual hole pars. It will be nice reference material for players but I think it's unlikely we would use those numbers in the database calculations for future rounds.

Keith asked me to re-evaluate the Jerry Garcia course based on "current" (Dec '01) player ratings. Nearly every player has gone up in rating since the ones I posted above which were the latest available at the time of the tournament.

With the new ratings, course WCP is 66.98 or 2.79 per hole which works out to 50.24 when adjusted to 18 holes.

[ck34]

That's real close to 50.4 where 10 rating points equals one throw.

When is distance at Jerry? I will be up there but it is more important to get Danny to the Little America. He will design the course and probably not care a whole lot what we have to say. He said he wouldn't be surprised if it takes him a month to design it with multiple trips to the land.

I'm planning on doing distance after the Saturday round just like last year. We'll give an hour or so to do scores and lunch, then do distance.

[rshelt]

Eagles are aces in the par three world. Aces are birdies or birdies are aces in the par 2 world. Who cares, still the same score.

[rshelt]

I doubt Danny will want to listen to 4 other people while he's trying to design the course. I'm sure we can walk with him, maybe point some things out, but Danny is stubborn. He will do it the way he likes, but we can watch.

I'm sure after a round of 24, doubles, the distance comp., add a few jack-n-cokes, shake well, and I'm sitting at camp, petting my dog. But don't let that discouage you from playing Keith.

I'm with ya Russ. I think Danny knows my opinion (more two-shot holes, fewer dinkers), and will either heed or ignore my advice as he sees fit.

This weekend, I'm all for enjoying my time at the Jerry tournament.

Jim

Russel and petting his dog are definitely something we could all do without. Jim, are you going to have some XS's that I can borrow. I only had one last year as I didn't know about the distance comp until you talked about it.

I'll have some I can sell you lance.

Actually, I think it's DX Valkyries now, right?

* On most BG courses, you can sink a putt from any which side. *

And you can do the same on direction targets with straight on putts. However, the sweet path isn't always straight on to directional targets, just as it isn't always straight on to golf holes at most every putting greens around the world.

Most putts in BG include factoring in some curved path to the hole. The sweet path can be a few inches or a few feet off line, depending upon speed and slope of the green. This is the same for directional targets in DG.

However, its generally not true of pole hole targets where a straight on putt holes out. Pole holes are the equivalent of a flat featureless arial putting green. As such, they make DG much more like archery into a round hay bale than golf.

Which is fine, if that's how one wants to limit one's talents and the sport.

===========
* the Ratings team will provide WCP data for each course as a popdown list for the directory. *

It's time to get over this centralized top heavy ratings stuff. There will always be plenty of courses and players excluded from the PDGA Ratings System as currently discorganized.

For example, we've barely got 3 folks in our local club who are current PDGA members -- none have been to a PDGA event these year. It's not like our club/players don't care about DG, they just care about the PDGA. Which is about the same support and trust that the PDGA provides to many local clubs and courses with it's various restrictive rules and generally centralized philosophies.

Sure, we've got several who've been PDGA active and done quite well in the past, but they've mostly burned out and/or seen the silliness of it all -- aka, got married and are happy raising a family with other priorities. DG for them is about having fun playing a casual round with a few friends every so often. Which is the perspective shared by the vast majority of DGers. It's highly unlikely the bulk of these players will ever be part of the restrictive centralized PDGA player Rating system as currently configured.

Nor are our local members every likely to care much about their local 3800 ft course ever getting a PDGA WCP rating, which as best as we can figure would be about 55 for the whites/58 for the blues, if not higher.

It's like who has got the time and energy to waste running around collecting sponsor money to hand out to a few so called pros at a PDGA event to spend it at some pub on beer?

This whole notion of the PDGA sanctioning events to hand out sponsor money and player package profits to PDGA pro members is a joke on it's non-profit status. Non-profits by generic legal definition aren't supposed to operate programs whose primary result is to enrich it's member's pockets. By generic definition, that makes the PDGA a for-profit operation.

As far as that goes, there is nothing wrong with being a for profit operation. A professional sporting organization whose goal is to promote professional competition by definition should be for profit.

This is gonna be fun. Good post Fred. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Like the idea of a directional target. I've putt on the one as advertised on the top of page 33 of the last DGWN. Also like the idea of putts going in through the hole in the top.

Great ideas that need better execution. Sorry, but way too much luck involved. The biggest problem I remember with them is the frame covering the chains. Some putts just off line won't go in, but putts off line enough to hit the frame right get kicked in.

My vote is to use the ultra deep basket and forget the chains and pole all together. Hardly anyone agrees with me on that idea. Putting into a hole requires more skill than banging chains though.

I don't see anything changing with our present baskets for a long time. Spit outs and cut throughs will be our sport possibly forever. Imagine Tiger Woods making a putt and having the ball bounce out of the cup. Wonder it people would take ball golf so seriously if that stuff happened once in awhile? Now imagine Ken Climo's putt for the win cutting through and out the back of the basket forcing a playoff that he loses to Eric Tracy. That really happened at the Springtime Open. Feature that on a Sunday afternoon CBS broadcast of a PGA tournament and see how seriously they will take us!

[rshelt]

Lance, If your dog wonders over to my camp, I'll pet him too!

There have been many putts in BG that have come out of the cup. It's usually a good idea to make sure there isn't a frog in the cup.

I think the chance of a spit in disc golf adds to the drama. People talk about it being too easy. Then they talk about spits. Wind is a huge factor in DG putting. When it goes big time, you'll hear announcers whispering about the wind and what the player will be trying to do with the disc. The crowd will moan after a spit. The crowd will applaud all made putts and there will be a roar from the crowd when a 40' is made.

Now if you cram the course into the woods, very few will take it seriously. Why? Because nobody can see it!

[bigchiz]

Pole hole design: As I understand it, the pole hole was designed to catch a disc similarly to a person catching it. All the extra added chains over the year have made it a better catcher. - It's hard to imagine a large cup hole design lasting in a public park as well as Mach IIIs, or whatever. The Mach IIIs have been on our course for 13 years. One was bent by a tractor, otherwise they have held up beautifully.

Payouts: Next year will be my first as a TD at a tourney with a history of being one of the richest in the midwest, and friendly too. You're raining on my parade, Fred! In the long run, it seems like this is just a phase in the history of disc golf that will eventually lead to more "real" pros. How can we ever hope to aspire to greater riches for disc golf if we can't make it through the in-between stage? (In-between of nearly no payout, to a payout worth a few days work or more.)

Maybe I am lame but when will the list of invites be posted for this thang?

[pterodactyl]

You didn't get yours? Ooops...oh, sorry, man. There's always the Shasta Tourney.

Play the courses over Memorial Day holiday weekend? I'm writing from CA and would like to come and play any courses for the worlds during the weekend of Memorial Day weekend in May when we have 4 days off work - paid! Are there any locals in Flag willing to put up a female and possibly one more travel companion (not sure if it will be a he or she just yet) in May of 2003? If so, please respond to me at FRISBEEGIRL@aol.com as I don't read these message boards too often. I'd appreciate any couch or floor space in trade for an awesome dinner on Saturday night - on me. I'm originally from Scottsdale, AZ and used to love to ski in Flag and go to Flakey Jakes. Is that place still open? We're going to have an awesome turnout from the So CALI Ladies in August!!! Thank you and Happy New Year to all - Michelle

[keithjohnson]

By discgolfdude on Thursday, January 02, 2003 - 03:44 pm:
Maybe I am lame but when will the list of invites be posted for this thang?


MAYBE????

see... if you had paid attention to the amworlds thread last year or read your pdga membership info or looked at all the threads on this board you would already have your answer /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Michelle, I don't know if any of the Flagstaff players read the message board. Sorry.

Thanks Keith, you know how to help a ho in need...so just answer the question, wiener.

DOES ANYONE HAVE THIS INFO???

I wanna start planning if I get to go...


Beuller
Beuller
Beuller

[ck34]

All of the 2002 event reports aren't in yet to tally the point totals for the year. Seems like Guru got the invites out right about the time of the Memorial where the Summit meeting was last year and will be this year. That's close to March 1st.

Thanks Chuck. I'm talkin the wife into 2 AZ visits this year and so far she aint real happy, but if I actually get an invite then I could care less what she says. The Memorial is a definite YES, and a invite to the worlds for my hard work is a [*****] YES, I'M GOIN!!!/msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

[pterodactyl]

What courses are going to be played. New ones? I saw only two courses in Flagtown in the course directory and one was on a campus.

There are only two perm. courses in Flagstaff to date. There should be 3 perm by worlds, and we're still talking about two or three different temp courses (one on the grounds of the host hotel &amp; one or two at a ski resort outside of town). I'm 99% sure we'll use the two existing permanants (NAU &amp; Thorpe), but between the others, I have no idea.

[keithjohnson]

what do you mean no idea????where do you think you live.... miami-dade county?? /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

you should have 4 permanent 18 hole world caliber championship courses by now ...you had a whole year and a half to get ready and houston only had 6 months.......dang arizona slackers /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[keithjohnson]

dude...do i ever post during the day when i'm off work???....you're an hour behind my time zone.. try typing with one hand and changing your kid with the other in the evening sometime /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

you should have scammed enough points just off the memorial and lama supertours to have helped you get in...if not just get on the waiting list march 1st pay your money like everyone else and you will have earned it.../msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

I am ranked 103 out of over 1400 people for points, if I dont get to go there gonna be some hell to pay!

(I'm also ranked 505 in the $$$, big difference between points and $$$, eh, and have a wimpy 970 player rating)

[rhett]

There are 1400 people in California with points in MPO???

<FONT SIZE="-2">Hey, are invites going to be based on x-% in NoCal or SoCal, or x-% of Cal points?</FONT>

According to the PDGA site there were 1414 people that played in the Open Men div last year.

[rhett]

Dud,

I know you are new to the frisbee scene, but your Worlds invite is based on how your points total compares to the points totals of the people in your (used to be) region or (is now or soon will be) state.

Therefore your point total most likely puts you way ahead of several Idaho, Montana, and No/So Dakota golfers that are going to get invites for being at the top of their states. You could be number 100 overall, but if you were from Texas or Michigan where it's a points bonanza every weekend you could also be 100 out of 110 players and not get an invite.

Sorry dud. /msgboard/images/clipart/sad.gif

[magilla]

I think it will count as % in Region 2, which is all of Calif.

Same deal with State Rep for USDGC, only 1 rep, per Harold Duvall.
I have deferred this years choice to Tim Selinski (Cal. South)because last year Neal Hoellwarth awarded it to Mike Loya (NorCal) I imagine that he will designate a tournament that will be the State Rep designate.

We are still looked upon as 1 region in the eyes of the PDGA, just split into North and South as far as state coordinators.
/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[rhett]

I'm thinking that spot for USDGC should be awarded not for demonstrated disc golf skill, but instead for devotion to the betterment of disc golf in the Southland. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[magilla]

Sure Rhett,
You register with the PDGA in Open Men and Ill be all for it....../msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

[drivethruliquor]

I take it everyone is gonna ignore Fred's post about the PDGA. (Aug 12, 2002 10:14am)
As an Ultimate player, I cruise the Ultimate Discussion board, rec.sport.disc on google groups, as well. Over the years, there have been a few threads related to Disc Golf. Generally the consensus is that Disc Golf is a great game, but the PDGA does little if anything to support the majority of players, who are lifetime recreational players. (most of these athletic people just can't stand taking 3 hours to play 18 holes) Personally, I think the PDGA's purpose is to support the Professionals, and it seems to do a good job. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif No problem there. However, isn't there a need for an organization that caters to Recreational players? (I'm not just talking about Ultimate players here) I believe this has been attempted in the past, but I'm not aware that a current organization is in place? (Is the RDGA very active these days?)

I know many of those people out there who make Disc Golf promotion their livelyhood devote a lot of time to amatuer and recreational golfers, so maybe we don't really need a supporting body. (Trickle down theory) It just seems like many of the upper Pro's don't care about the recreational player, except for the possiblity of turning them into a tournament player who will then contribute to the purse. I know many of us out there do not feel this way, but every time I here Pros complain about this and that ( and I've been guilty in the past too ) the true "Spirit" of the sport suffers.
I have seen a lot of growth in the 13 years I've played, and this year promises to be one of the best ever! I'm just wary of the growing gap between the PDGA and Recreational players. I do love the matching baskets program, and I don't mean to say the PDGA does absolutely nothing for recreational players. Perhaps some people out there can point out some of the things the PDGA does do that I'm just not aware of.

I don't really have any suggestions, just going for a little awareness. Those of you out there who truly do spend a lot of time and effort with recreational players, without trying to push tournament play, I give you my thanks and appreciation. It is your efforts that make our sport grow and it is you who we should thank when the day comes when we don't have to explain what disc golf is when people ask what we do. Keep up the good work /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

-Randolph

[drivethruliquor]

In a thread related note /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

The Colorado A-tier - Peak One Championships - will also be a good opportunity to practice elevation golf. There are plenty of daily activities for the family too. Not much elevation change on the two courses we will play, but there certainly are nearby courses with plenty. ie. Aspen, Snowmass, Vail, Winter Park

See Ya There
-Randolph

Mikey, what exactly should an organization do for recreational disc golfers? Are there recreational bowling and volleyball associations? What do they do for those that don't play competively?

[bambam]

For bowling, they all get together, get sloppy drunk, and shoot pool and throw darts. /clipart/proud.gif

Or so I've heard, anyway...

[jackinkc]

Disc golf is one of the cheapest sports. $35/year to be a member is cheap. You don't pay to play at most courses, the PDGA keeps us informed and works on promotion of the sport at all levels. The sooner people realize that the better.

Just my $.02, you can have it!

Jack

[gnduke]

I am glad you don't have to play at most courses. That would be a lot of time traveling to play at that many courses /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

Sorry Jack, that was just too easy...

[drivethruliquor]

Jim,


Not really sure what all a rec organization would do, or what the PDGA should be doing? I have had this exact discussion with some of the folks on rsd (rec.sport.disc-google goups) and asked the same question in response to their complaints.
One person pointed to the golfing world, where both the PGA and the USGA exist. NOt sure what the difference is. Perhaps someone knows a little more about this?

I have defended the PDGA to many who question there commitment to rec/am issues. I must admit, however, that I don't really know much about what the PDGA does for rec players. (shame on me) I was hoping someone would point out all the things the PDGA does, so I could then make all those great points to the naysayers on rsd.

Personally, I feel that the course directory, Course design standards that include providing for rec players, and matching baskets program are great things. The question I pose is this: Can one organization simultaneously provide the best service to both Professional and Recreational players?

What if a seperate organization was formed to help people put in recreational courses, hold recreational events, and provide a way for non-PDGA members to learn more about the sport? Would that help free up the PDGA to handle Professional issues such as player ratings, Tour schedules, statistics, seperate standards for National Tour/Super Tour/A-Tier/Worlds courses, and increased (or any?) outside sponsorship?

If two organizations were formed, and one was free to join, wouldn't that boost our numbers? We all see golfers out there that love to play, and do all the time, but would never join the PDGA. When we report our membership, we can't include these people, even though they are obviously hooked on the sport. These players would most likely be interested in and support the increased coverage that outside sponsorship would provide. By having a seperate organization that these types of golfers can join, for free, we can then more accurately inform potential sponsors about how many people love this game.

Just a few ideas there. Once again, I'm not trying to rip the PDGA. As our sport grows, it may make sense for them to concentrate solely on Professional issues?

I haven't figured out how to start a new thread, but it would seem appropriate. If someone already knows how, could they just do it? If not, I'll figure it out when our DSL gets fixed, Dial-Up STINKS.

Discuss,
-Randolph

Drive thru liquor. Keep coming back it works if you live it/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Az will rock, my neighborhood is behind you 100%.
Is this the worlds thread?

[jackinkc]

Sorry< ihelped fuel the fire there.

GO AZ, I hope that it is as cool there as you can make it. I only hope that we do just as good hear with the Am's!

It is disc golf it is great, and it is growing, we having growing pains, we will work through them.

The pro worlds is gonna be great, I hope that we send them all off well from here in KC with the Wide Open!!

NT Just do it baby!

[zzeezz]

Mike, a P.G.A membership is earned through qualifying and/or how well you do on the smaller tours (buy.com). The U.S.G.A. only requires cash to become a member. You're right we need two governing bodies for this growing sport but, what can an organization with no membership fees or annual dues do for anybody? Who will fund this organization? The P.D.G.A is doing a fairly good job. The message board is a great aspect of what can be done for the REC player. Tell me in what other sport can a REC player type in questions only to be answered by some of the best players in the game as well as manufaturers and members of the Board of Directors. The P.D.G.A. also provides an awesome quarterly magazine. Course directories and additional information on tour stops, results, points, player rating are also very helpful to all members. The REC player also benefits when a current P.D.G.A. member gets a new course approved/installed. Ask yourself how many courses go in without the involvement of at least one member of the P.D.G.A. Who sells the REC players their discs? Probably a P.D.G.A. member or a company thereof. I hope to see you this year somewhere, K.C.? Memorial? NT stops?

[keithjohnson]

By Ken Climo on Friday, January 10, 2003 - 04:54 pm:
The P.D.G.A. also provides an awesome quarterly magazine.

supposed to anyways /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[drivethruliquor]

Ken,

Good points. These were pretty much the points I made to people who critized the PDGA. Of course an organization with no dues can't afford to do anything, Duh. What was I thinking. Just thinking of a way to include all those rec players in the numbers we can report to potential sponsors.

I really have no idea how many course placements involve members of the PDGA, but I imagine it's pretty high. I do love getting the magazine, which seems to get thicker every year /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif and is a great way for rec players to learn and follow the Sport. Good Luck convincing them to pony up the Dough, which certainly is not the fault of the PDGA. Tour stops, results, points, and player ratings don't really do anything for the rec player, but are great for the more competetive golfer. Perhaps there's a need for someone in charge of recreational needs within the PDGA?

Granted, without members of the PDGA there would be no courses or discs, and consequently, no rec players. But don't you think people would still make discs and put in courses if there was no PDGA? I just know there's a lot of golfers out there who feel the PDGA does nothing to meet their needs. Personally, I don't think it's the PDGA's job, but it would be nice to reach out to these people in some way. Not claiming to have answers here, just discussing.

I think there are other non high-profile sports where rec players can ask questions of Pros, and I think it's great the PDGA offers this forum. How else could we talk about this stuff?

Good to chat a little, even by keyboard. Am recovering from a few Ultimate injuries, but plan to golf more again this year. I'm sure there's a few guys that want to kick-my-[*****] around the course after the surprising performance in Tahoe. We'll see if I'm still any good in Phoenix or K.C. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif Hopefully I can get into Worlds since they're so close. Can't believe I might finally get to play a Worlds on a ski resort!! Should be fun for all.

Is Keegan crushing a disc yet?
-Randolph

P.S. to all - sorry about the long posts under the wrong thread. I'll clean up my act.

[pterodactyl]

"Respect the sunset"-Randolph circa 2002

[zzeezz]

Mike, the little man is a lhbh thrower rhfh roller thrower, not a whole lot of distance yet. I'm not going to force the game on him, I want him to love it on his own , so he may take a little while longer becoming a disc golfer. He really likes to play catch with a lid.

kenny your my hero![:-)]

[zzeezz]

A lower case "K" for your hero's first name. Thank You k.C.

/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Ken, im from tx and was wondering when the next time you plan on playing here?

Hallo,

I was informed that there was some discussion of rec issues here. I find that odd, as there aren't rec players in any number in the PDGA. If you wish to speak with rec advocates, why not go to where they are and speak with them? I can be found on rec.sport.disc still. I also happen to be one of the most vocal proponents of rec issues over the years.

I'm not difficult to find.

Larry

What the HELL did this topic turn into?

It's Randolph's fault.

[drivethruliquor]

Sorry /msgboard/images/clipart/sad.gif

Could someone tell me how to start a new thread?

[seewhere]

click on topic at the bottom and then find the heading that will best fit your thread and click on create top. good luck

Randolph,

Get back to work.

Well since the thread has allready run amuck, I'll add my 2 cents.

I hear a lot of people say " I know a lot of golfers who feel the PDGA does nothing to meet their needs"

That is usually in relation to what's happening at their local course, which misses the point.

I think you need to look a little further to understand how important the PDGA is to a professional player, what they mean to the future of this sport, and where we would - or would not be without them.

It's often hard to understand a national perspective and the future from just a local point of veiw.

One way or another- leap of faith, or what have you- if you plan on playing this game for an extended period of time, and increasing your competitive skills - then you begin to understand how important the PDGA is, and how much we need to support them.

Please to correct me if i am wrong- but the people who devote time and energy to the PDGA are not doing it for the money, I don't think they even get paid? they do it for the love of the support, and for all disc golfers, professional, recreational and otherwise, even if they are not always understood or appreciated.

We are very lucky to have the PDGA at this stage of the game. They do more for all of us than we can really know from just one view.


JS

[drivethruliquor]

Oh yeah, Work.

When ya gonna bring my trophy back? Both of em' Wanna go for a 3rd KC doubles title this year? Still thinking about touring this summer? Have ya thrown the Talon yet? What about the Worlds at elevation?

Randolph,
Good to hear/read that you are still kicking. I have no idea about the trophies you are talking about...didn't you get the pics I sent...Planning on going to Worlds &amp; USDGC this year so its doubtful I'll make the Wide Open, hopefully I'll see you at the Grateful Disc.

[drivethruliquor]

John,

There is now a thread for the Recreational vs. Professional discussion. Jim G created it for me last week (thanks Jim) Go to Topics, PDGA Issues-submit a topic, PDGA v.s Rec. DGA. There's a good discussion going on over there, where it should be. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Anyone thinking about the C-tier in Flagstaff June 21,22?

Great..... Randolph is back..... sigh..... I guess I should quit the team before I am dropped!


Welcome back, although I don't think I have ever played in a group with you, but I remember watching you play back in the day when I was AM. I remember thinking of you as Discraft's Equivalent to Innova's ken (wink..small "k" Ken). Look forward to maybe playing in your group someday Mike. Am I allowed to call you Mike?

Uh, expect the date to change on that Flagstaff tournament.

There will be one June 7-8, another July 5-6. We might bump them to B-tiers if there's enough interest from outside of Az.

I started a thread for all the BS on Randolphs stuff. Its under the "Randolphs BS Thread. Now how bout some Flagstaff BS???

[ck34]

If some of us going to the Memorial want to take a side trip up to Flagstaff, will we be able to review potential layouts and/or play any Worlds courses there? I think some Summiteers are considering this.

Sure, if you've got time to kill, and don't mind cold weather, cruise up there and check out Thorpe &amp; NAU, but don't expect the same configuration in the summer.

Thorpe has multiple pin positions on most holes, and I think they usually move everything short for the winter.

NAU does not (yet) have multiple positions, but we do plan on lengthening several of the holes for worlds.

Also both courses have plenty of room for additional holes, and we've discussed stretching them out to 24 or 27.

[pterodactyl]

Will there be an oxygen bar?

[keithjohnson]

way to get the pdga all comfy jim.....they LOVE last minute details /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Keith, it's still 8 months away.

I think the exact course layout is the least of the concerns at this point.

[rshelt]

Keith, Most people won't get to see the courses beforehand, so what's the big deal? Do you need to know now on paper so you can study how you're going to play the courses?

There is anywhere from 1 to 2 feet of snow on the ground, right now, and if we get any storms, there still could be some left by the time the memorial comes. I imagine that the courses will not be 100% layed out until around may or june, and still only on paper.

Pterodactyl, I would suggest to anyone to come a few days early just to acclamate yourself with the altitude, and bring your unstable stuff, but you probably already knew that.

Stable is all you need if you throw two spins!

i played thorpe on the way home from the Memorial last year. it was well worth the time spent to see the place and see how the plastic worked. there was no snow though....the advantages in playing a course prior to.....

[keithjohnson]

you guys just don't have a clue do you....the smiley face is there...it is also an inside joke about last year and am worlds.....do i need to spell out everything for you russel????


and jim should know better....we have already talked about this subject...i think he just likes seeing you respond russ /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[drivethruliquor]

Two spins with stable discs does not a turnover make. There is no substitute for practice at elevation. SeeYa'll at the High Country Challenge /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[pterodactyl]

Russell, don't give out those high elevation secrets. I was planning that no one else would think of it. My advantage is now gone. Lost on the internet that Al Gore invented.

[ck34]

Is there a 2003 Pro Worlds website yet?

[rshelt]

Chuck, disqmam.com will have a link to the pdga site within a few weeks. We are working with the pdga on the format. We want this to be a great vacation, so we are trying for a one round a day format with tee times (24 or 27)holes. It won't be figured out until the summit meeting here prior to the memorial. So what we have ready will be the sponsership package for the worlds (which is one of the most important items).
Thanks, Dan Ginnelly

Can someone please tell me the names of the Worlds courses? Or the names of the parks? Is one the signature course?

Thanks,
rodney

NAU-I think it's the Northern Arizona University campus course.

Thorpe-never been there

The other 2 courses are going to be temp courses I think on the hotel grounds.

All of this is hearsay and will not be admitted as evidence.

Clue is right about the two Permanant courses. I'm not sure the status on the temporaries. And there may be another perm course in town by then.

One possibility (I think it's still in negotiations) is using a temp course or two at the ski resort outside of town. If that happens, that will definetly be the signature course.

Hmmmm, "NAU", "Thorpe", and "Flagstaff" don't exactly lend their names to catchy commemorative homebrew names. What ever will I do?

My dad came to town and forgot the name of Flagstaff and called in "Fallflat". If that ain't the name of a good beer then I don't know what is!

Well NAU's mascot is the Lumberjack, so you got
NAU Lumberjack Lager.

Or even split that up
Northern Arizona Amber (Ale)
Lumberjack Lager

If you really want to get fancy, use the host hotel and some fruit:
Little America Lambic.

The Ski Resort is called Snowbowl, so if we use that, you got your Stout.

Thorpe Park Porter or Thorpe Park Pale Ale aren't too bad.

Mmmmm, thanks for the suggestions. I can't do lagers and I'm not good enough to do Lambics, but one of those Ale suggestions should work.

anybody know when the details on this years worlds will be available...any new rumors?

The website has been started, you can see the stamp and find out what the host hotel is and what it costs. Looks like the rest is still under destruction/msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

http://www.disqman.com/proworlds2003/

[pterodactyl]

Cool logo! Reminds me of what happened in Tahoe to Dave Greenwell.

gonna be there pterry? your goin' DOWN!.... HARD! <FONT FACE="WINGDINGS">J</FONT>

[pterodactyl]

Oh I'll be there. How about you, Mama? I'm hoping my scores will be going down.

[quickdisc]

Really Cool Logo !!! Thanks Lance for the
Web Address /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

will be there fer shur...my plan is to get a big guy with a crooked nose to break everybodies' legs, (except mine), who enters our division so i have a chance to win! yay! <FONT FACE="WINGDINGS">J</FONT>

[rhett]

Is there a link to that page from the main disqman page? I was looking for the website about two nights ago and couldn't find it at disqman or azdiscgolf without the link above.

No there's not, Rhett. I was holding off linking from the main site, or otherwise making that address public until the site was more completed, but Lance jumped the gun /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

I've registered www.proworlds2003.com (http://www.proworlds2003.com) and set it up to forward to the above address, but it'll probably take a few days to propogate through the DNSs.

[rhett]

Maybe I'll make my yearly suggestion to the PDGA to create the subdomains "proworlds.pdga.com" and "amworlds.pdga.com" and forward the traffic to the respective actual websites so that there is some year-to-year consistency. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[keithjohnson]

rhett... what have i told you about trying to make sense /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[Moderator005]

For anyone in the Mid-Atlantic region, use Orbitz to find low price airfares - I found round trip from BWI to Phoenix for only $228.

-Jeff

[keithjohnson]

thanks theo for staying on top of this stuff...gives rhett more time to figure out how to reschedule the us masters /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[underparmike]

it's only 107 days until i tee off at the 2003 pro worlds...does anyone have a clue if there will be 3 courses or 4? any luck on getting a local ski resort to host a course? is there any elevation on any of the courses?

[rshelt]

There will be 4 courses. Snowbowl(a ski resort) has commited to a temp. course. If I know Danny it will probably be the best course of the tourney. It is the only course not in town. It's about a 20 min. ride from flagstaff. In the invititation. it gives you a good explaination of the courses. Snowbowl should have great elevation.

[jeffnichols]

Have the invitations for Flagstaff gone out yet? I think I remember hearing that they would be sent in March sometime. I see my name on the list of qualifiers, but have not received my invite yet. Anyone else?

[jeffash]

I received mine today./clipart/happy.gif

me too.

[willyc]

I received mine today and I was very disappointed to read that the GrandMasters will not be playing the SnowBowl course. I'm sure that I'm not the only GrandMaster that feels that way....

[underparmike]

guess i should have checked my mailbox today! sure enough, there's my invite! thanks for the info...snowbowl will be sweet. do they have gumbo and crawfish in the mountains? i live below sea level in n'awlins so i'm looking forward to a groovy alpine course.

Received mine like a week ago and was so excited. I've been wanting to earn one for a long time and I finally did by getting about 2 points above my division requirement.

Late last year, however, some voice inside my head told me to become a full time TD and instead of being able to go to Am World's, I'll be working. /msgboard/images/clipart/sad.gif

Good luck to all. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[rhett]

Willy, you don't have to enter the division you qualified in. A Worlds invite is an invite to go to Worlds and play in any division you can. See, you really can play Snowbowl. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[jeffash]

Rhett, you're starting to sound like a TD./clipart/wink.gif

[ck34]

Willy, the additional 3000' of altitude, the elevation changes up &amp; down on the Snowbowl course, speed of play and the "Shive" SGM agreement were all part of the first draft proposal for divisions at 50 and older to skip Snowbowl. Last year, there was an agreement with the lead group of Sr. Grandmasters, lead by Peter Shive, that the SGMs would play the same courses and number of holes at Worlds as the GMs.

As Rhett pointed out, you can play Master but notice that even they are "only" playing it once. I think several of the older players may head up there before the event to at least look at it and play some or all of it. I also suspect that many of those who do will be glad they don't have to play it under competitive conditions. Maybe it will be used for fun doubles?

My sources tell me that there are over 100 players on the waitlist for Flagstaff Pro Worlds. I strongly encourage all who were invited and hope to attend to send in their reservations. This baby will fill up for sure. Danny is in Flag as we speak putting the final touches on the design for the Hotel Course.

He also mentioned that the Arizona Cardinals will be in town and another huge event will be occurring in Flag so hotel rooms will be at a premium. Reserve your spot and your room immediately. If it turns out that you can't go then you can always get your money back.

Its going to be great!

The Teva Treebash will be played on June 6th and 7th on two of the Worlds courses. For anyone that wants to play these courses in what I assume will be the tournament layout here is a link to the flyer:
Treebash Flyer (http://dana.ucc.nau.edu/~cbk/treebash03/)

[keithjohnson]

hope that is 7 and 8th as not many events run friday,saturday /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

I'm just trying to get people to post so that this will stay on the board for more than 24 hours. Good catch!

Will this weekend be sanctioned?
Any chance to play up at Snowbowl? /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[rhett]

The entry form says "Add $5 if not a PDGA member" so it seems sanctioned, but no mention of sanctioning or tier. I think it's a C-Tier. Is that right?

I just moved a couple of weeks ago, and my invite is packed somewhere in one of the boxes.

How long do I have to find it and send it in?

<FONT SIZE="-2">I'll be looking for it tonight... but no guarantee I'll find it unless it has to be in by the end of the month!!</FONT>

Sanction (http://www.pdga.com/pdgatour.php?id_pick=192&amp;month=06&amp;s=0&amp;w=&amp;day=07)

This is a B-Tier event that has already been sanctioned.

Rich, I am in sort of the same boat so if I find an answer, <SUB>unless, of course, I find my entry</SUB> then I will let you know. There has to be another way to enter if you are a bonehead and lose your invite. /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

[rhett]

Send an email to office@pdga.com would be my suggestion. Then send a check. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

OK, got my new household unpacked and found my invite!!! /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Hey Lance, did you ever find yours? /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

Yessiree Rich, I mailed it yesterday so that the June 1 deadline is not going to be a problem. This will be my first Worlds as a Master. I kind of wish they had a cut so I could shoot for it. I guess I can dream of making a final nine though. Glad you found yours. Kind of funny, I thought there was something unique to the form when actually its just a blank form. Don't forget we have a Worlds tune-up in a couple weeks on the two permanent courses.

[jeffnichols]

Is there any way to confirm that my registration was received? I'd hate to miss the deadline because it got lost in the mail or misplaced.

[quickdisc]

Still looking for my Invite. I'd better find it Quickly. June 1st deadline. Getting too close.

Don, does that mean you lost it or that you never received it? If you haven't received it then I would suggest emailing Guru and getting the blank form and sending it in.

Jeff, I would check your bank account or credit card statement. If they have your money and have cashed it then they got it. The registration list is supposed to be up at Pro Worlds Registration (http://www.disqman.com/proworlds2003/registration.html)

This is my first at a World's aslo. Guess I'd better get the registration in the mail today, instead of sitting here looking at it. June 1st is getting here quick!

I was a little suprised that the doubles weren't being held this year. <FONT SIZE="-2">where have I been!</FONT>

Since nobody from my neck of the woods is going this year I'm looking for a room to share or floor space availble. So if anyone knows somebody.... E-mail me or post here, please. Also, I'll be driving to there from Santa Barbara county and can pick one or maybe two, if it's sorta along the way.

Rich D.

[rshelt]

I'm in, so's Jeff! Yoohoo!!!

I live in Phoenix Arizona and I believe I will be going up to watch. Does anyone know how I could find a list of the players? Is there any chance of getting autographs while I am there? Do they have any times when non tournament players can play? That's about all my questions I believe. Thank you for your help.

Hey Russel, are you going to play in the Teva tourney? Snapper and I are thinking of heading up to check out the courses. DD

[pterodactyl]

You should come up and play the Steady Ed Birthday Memorial instead, DD. You don't want to get too familiar with those worlds courses too soon!

Any word on Snowbowl yet??????

Since Russel hasn't posted I can just about guarantee that he will be playing. He doesn't miss many Cactus series events.

Dave Finley, you can easily get autographs by going to the fly mart, awards banquet, getting there during practice rounds or catching the players after they finish their rounds. Most, if not all of the players will be very supportive of signing for you.

Any time that the courses aren't in use for tournament play they will generally be open for practice. The exceptions may be the Snowbowl and Hotel courses but as long as they are open for us to practice they will be open for anyone else.

Russel, Jeff as in your coworker? He's playing Worlds? Are you shutting down your shop?

Get back on the board, subject!!

Anyway, there is a post of all of the registered players (as of May 21) and a list of all of the wait-listed players. Judging by the early registrants there may be a chance for cracking the top 50 in Open as not too many big names have bothered to register early.

Pro Worlds 2003 (www.disqman.com/proworlds2003)

When can we expect another registered players update?

[rshelt]

Lance, Jeff as in "Nichols".

Dave yes I am playing the Teva. I'm going up on friday. Sorry I haven't gotten back to you, but I haven't even read the board for days.

[Chris Hysell]

www.disqman.com/proworlds2003 (http://www.disqman.com/proworlds2003)

[pterodactyl]

I guess it's time to crack open the checkbook. Flagstaff in August sounds great. I love that 7000 foot stuff. KL

Three days until Worlds Tune-up #1 at the Teva Treebash. I hear CA, UT, NV, AZ and NM are representing. Don't know who else.

[ck34]

MN will be in the house.

[drivethruliquor]

I thought the Teva Tree Bash was June 21,22 ?

[keithjohnson]

no mike.....this weekend...
but there is another in flagstaff in july before worlds.....check www.disqman.com (http://www.disqman.com) and click on calendar link on left side

Somebody tell me that CO is gonna be in the house. There needs to be some quality beer quaffed!/msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

[ck34]

Are we playing the exact layouts proposed for Worlds? That would mean one of the courses would be 24 holes.

[rshelt]

I'm pretty sure that only one course will be set up in the worlds format. That will be Thorpe park, but it will only be 18 of the holes. I could be wrong though, and they could add the extra holes, but I doubt it. The course at NAU from what I've heard will have only a few of the worlds positions, I don't know how many, you would have to ask Danny. From what I hear Chuck, he's going to show you the worlds courses. Better bring an oxygen tank to see the Snowbowl course. I heard that the elevations for that course range from 8000' to 10,000'.

I just talked to Danny. He is calling back with more info but Thorpe will be the course that has added holes for Worlds and he is checking to see if we are adding any for Teva. He expects that Chris is adding at least 3 of the holes for Teva. It will be very close if not the same as the Worlds layout. (use a tree avoiding disc) NAU will be largely the same as Worlds and there is a chance that we will put in some temporaries on some of the holes like 3, 13, 15 and 16 to make it the same as we hope to use for Worlds.

[ck34]

I hope we can use an ATV to get around and look at Snowbowl. That's what they use at the "mountain" course in MN.

[drivethruliquor]

Not afraid of a little workout, are we Chuck?

Colorado may be in the house, but not I. I swear the PDGA schedule listed this tournament on 21,22. Then on this very Board, I was told that the tourney wouldn't be held at all? Now the tourney is going on, but the dates have switched. Hhhmmm. Well, good luck to all. When is the event in July? Hopefully the weekend of the Majestic, cause that's all I have free. You wouldn't put it up against KC or Kiss The Sky, would ya?

Hey Chuck...driving up with Glen Friday afternoon. DD

[keithjohnson]

well mike..since you're too lazy to look it up /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif
i'll tell you it is listed as july 5-6 and showing only playing nau
also this was posted on az email list today from the td of this weeknds event.......you might be able to get more info from emailing him(his first name is chris)....keith

Subj: [discgolf-az] treebash
Date: 6/4/2003 1:06:28 PM US Mountain Standard Time
From: cbk@dana.ucc.nau.edu
Reply-to: discgolf-az@yahoogroups.com
To: discgolf-az@yahoogroups.com

Hey, guys. We are going to add some holes on the courses this weekend, and we
will need a few baskets from the Valley. The total count will be 8-10, so we
don't need everyone to bring one. If you are willing to bring one or two,
reply to this email, and I'll start a list. If it gets too full, I will reply
back.

Thanks, and I hope everyone is looking forward to cooling off and having a
great weekend of golf in the pines...

Barley

[drivethruliquor]

Keith,

Not too lazy. I e-mailed the TD listed on the PDGA tournament list the first week in JANUARY. He just returned my e-mail 2 days ago. I was also told specifically by someone on this Board...YOU MAYBE...that the Teva Tree Bash would not be going on this year.

Anyway, have a fun weekend. Hope the Snow's gone!

It looks like we are adding the A,B,E,F holes from two yrs ago to
Thorpe, three extra holes at NAU, and extending four at NAU. From Barley.

[keithjohnson]

mike...it was not me saying anything about teva...the only az tourney cancelled was hoopes when they pulled the course but that was scheduled for mid may...
i hope you know i'm just busting your chops...but you gotta know the info and shouldn't have to wait for 6 months to get an answer.....after all arizona isn't as bad as the pdga yet in replies /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

maybe you can make the july 5-6 event mike...stiil some planning time left for you

[rshelt]

Not so fast Keith, the breeze in the trees is probably going to be cancelled or changed because of it being on the 4th of July weekend, and not many able to make it. Talk to Jim, he was supposed to talk with Danny, and move it or cancel it.
Mike is right about the date change for treebash. Somehow the pdga got the tentative schedule from Jim, and then published it in the 1st dwgn. Then Jim sent them the correct one for the following issue. The treebash was never cancelled. Mike if you're having trouble getting responses for any AZ tourneys, you can contact me via my email(rsautoarts@interacs.com or rshelton5@cox.net), and I gaurantee you I'll respond quickly. Flagstaff is a small town, and many of the people are in slow motion. You have to kick someone to get things going. They are great people in flagstaff, and they do run great events, and of course the area is awesome(in fact I plan to retire there!)

[rshelt]

Also Teva Treebash was listed as a "c" tier, but on the flier it's listed as a "b" tier.

I'm pleased to announce that San Diego has decided to send represenatives to participate in the first anual TEVA TREEBASH worlds warm up, yeah!!!!!! Ken Jarvis, Micah Dorius, young aspiring touring disc golfer Chris Vilmorin and myself are ready for the brutal marathon rounds and blistering heat that may be present.

The journey will comence at 4:00am 06/06/03

[rshelt]

Carlo, No worry about heat, unless you get out of the car in phx.. My advise to you is AVOID PHX.. Don't stop, just go to Flagstaff where it only gets to about 80, and about 55 at night. Bring rain gear. It has rained off and on up there for the past few days.

Thanks for the info. AVOID phoenix at all costs.

[pterodactyl]

Unless you want to see a ton of scantily-clothed, hot women. But you live in San Diego, don't you Carlo...never mind!

[rshelt]

Actully we're going to be experiencing a cold front moving through Phx. It's supposed to drop from 108 to 102 by the weekend!

[keithjohnson]

By Russel Shelton on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 02:00 pm:
Not so fast Keith, the breeze in the trees is probably going to be cancelled or changed because of it being on the 4th of July weekend, and not many able to make it. Talk to Jim, he was supposed to talk with Danny, and move it or cancel it.

russ..i'm only going by the schedule on disqman....i have no idea about the moving or actual dates of any of the events unless somebody posts them.....that was kinda my point about saying arizona was almost as slow as the pdga /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

the only one i really care about is jrry...so i hope the dates on that one are posted at least 3 weeks in advance and we don't have the drought and fire restrictions keeping us out again /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Looks like I'm going to have to move into Masters with Carlo there. Sure don't want to end up on his card, haha. This should get Nick keyed up also with my late move to Masters.

[drivethruliquor]

Russel...thanks for the info. Hopefully the tourney can move to the following weekend, July 12,13, which is the weekend of the Minnesota Majestic. I'd rather stay in the Mountains as much as possible, but have to go to the Wide Open cause it's my best chance to qualify for USDGC.
Keith...Bustin' my chops is all good. I should've been checkin' the schedule again and noticing the date change. D'OH.

Hope the Weather holds for you guys. Rocky Mountains Rule!

[keithjohnson]

hope to see you in flag...even though i can't play singles /msgboard/images/clipart/sad.gif
keith

[keithjohnson]

mike...you're right about the rockies ruling...........it was GREAT to ski in winter park in the end of march...122 inch base and lorelei's first time(she is only 6) and she loved it....in a couple of years i'll have someone to ski with on the blacks and moguls again.....
I LOVE WINTER PARK AND A BASIN!!! /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[rshelt]

I'll work Danny and Garnett to move the "Breeze" rather than cancel it, but we have to move fast because they have to get the parks permission well in advance. I hope we can still play it, I need all the practice I can get up there.
Lance, I don't know if there will be enough masters to have a good field, but we'll see. I know Devine and Glen T. are coming, and with me and you that makes 4, still not enough for me to switch, but we'll see.
Keith, the Jerry is definatly in doubt. Last year at the end of july, we could not have had the Jerry, because of the drought, and this year doesn't seem any better. They have been getting rain, and the restrictions are right now; you can camp, but no open fires, no smoking outside of buildings or your car. That still means we can camp. Hopefully this will at least stay this way for a month.

[rshelt]

Weather update for Flagstaff: Yesterday; high 79, low 46, with a trace of rain. Today; high 80; low 41 no rain(yea). Possible strong winds with a front moving through today, but should decrease by tomorrow. That's weather, and now back to the bubbleheaded bleach blond.

My weather report says isolated T-storms in the early evening today. That would be cool. I love having the boomers going off while hanging out.
Leaving in an hour, yeehaw!

[ck34]

Snapper Pierson and me in Masters also.

How about an update...

[ck34]

Micah Dorius leading Open field of 32 at -11 by one over Ken Jarvis and one other player (I think) for two rounds at NAU. Dave Devine leads Master Pro by one over Snapper Pierson with Jeff Homburg and myself 5 more back in a field of 13. Not sure on the other divisions. Over 100 entered so there were extra groups on the course.

[Sharky]

DD for Masters rookie of the year /clipart/wink.gif

Good to see San Diego dominating, as always /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif