When the Advanced Golfer goes Pro

All those who have an opinion on this matter PLEASE reply. I am currently MPO. I finished ninth last year at the amateur world championships. I was told that this meant that it was definately time. What I have discovered since going pro is something every advanced golfer need to understand before he/she decides to make the jump. The pro division is HARD! I dont know about the rest of the country but in the southeastern united staes it is VERY HARD. To all you advanced golfers considering making the jump, this is what you need to know.....

Your entry fees are going to be AT LEAST double.

Your chances of cashing are going to be GREATLY dimished.

The amount of money you receive if you cash is probably not going to compare to the value of mechandise you received for cashing in advanced.

There are a lot more advanced golfers than pro golfers, and as long as we depend on the number of entrants into a division for the resulting payout, well.... you do the math.

GET READY TO HAVE TO BUY DISCS AGAIN!!!!!!!

Hopefully those of you who do jump to the pro division will fare better than myself. A lot of my friends that jumped with me seem to have.

How can we create a way to really let people know what level they are playing at? How can we set up a CONTINUOUS rating system that lets us know where we stand? Is there ever going to be an opportunity to compete in events which solely rely on past performance and ability to divide us into realistic divisions? I think it is coming sooner than we think.

What do you think?

Ben Budd PDGA#12655

Whoops! I did not mean to post this under disc golf course desing.... sorry.

[Pizza God]

someone has to finish last at every tournament.

Ben, how are you doing compared to the advanced division? Are you improving? Did you expect to consistantly cash right away?

Yes, it's quite a bit different going from a division that you're used to dominating to one where you have to play well just to get last cash. It is (or at least it was for me) considerably more difficult than the move from Intemediate to Advanced.
You are also correct that it is different in different parts of the country (though I'd think a top-10 Am worlds player should be competitive anywhere).

In my opinion, the biggest difference between top advanced players, and consistantly cashing pros is in the head, and you don't really learn that until you're battling for the cash.

One comment, if you can't afford the entry fees, and the very real possibility that you will not cash, maybe moving up is not a good idea.

Ben,

One small change I'd like to see is every year there could be a few "B" or "C" tier tournaments on the same weekend as an "A" tier in the same region. That way some of the middle of the pack pros could learn what it's like to play in the lead group. It's REAL hard to go to a "B" tier with 12-18 open players and play aginast Larry Leonard, Walter Haney, Carlton Howard, Brian Schweberger, Stan McDaniel, Alan Beaver, and Brian McCree, just to name a few. Don't get me wrong, I love playing with and against these guys, but it makes cashing near impossible when the payout is 5 deep and these guys are the competition.
Just my 2 cents

[Chris Hysell]

Ben, please don't make it sound like every advanced player will have trouble in the open division. I know that I went from winning advanced to playing in the lead group to winning tournaments. Your local player Chris Lee has done the same. Others like Brian Skinner, Mook D and Robzilla are there as well. Give it some time and patience and hopefully you can do the same.

BB. Your situation is clear. Some would know better than to think top ten at Am Worlds would be competitive anywhere.

There have am world champs that have not been competitive in the pro ranks.

Now you get to hear that it's your weakness in the head that's keeping you back or some other funny little reasons.

I know the real pros are very, very good. I also know when you bring them all together for a big event it does not increase the chance of cashing for the bottom third of pros.

Anyway, nice post. And I wish you luck.

Hey Mel! It snowed on Saturday.

Daniel,
I hope all is well. People always ask about you. I played with Jim Akins this week in Meriweather and he said hey.

Unlike Randy, Mel makes a great point. When the winniecrew and half the top guys from California show up for a C-tier it is kind of scary.

This (http://www.disqman.com/calendar/2001/FHThrills/Fountain_results.htm) tournament was fun.

[willyc]

Ben, after finishing 9th last year, did you think that you were ready for the move? I have always been told that if you place in the top ten then you move up...regardless if you feel you are ready or not. We have one guy at our park that placed in the top 5 two years ago in Adv. Masters and decided that he wasn't ready to move. So last year he won Adv. Masters by 15 and he still was thinking about not moving! We currently have another guy (not at our park) who won Adv. Grandmasters last year and this year is showing up to defend his title. Is that right? I don't know, maybe he feels that he has peaked and will never be ready for the Pros. Just my 2 cents.

[neonnoodle]

Ben,

Under the current competitive system, if I were you I would never apply for a Professional Card. Why would you? Unless you plan to quit your job, divorce your wife, and play 6 days a week, or are incredibly talented, you are going to be in the situation you describe above for quite some time (or at least until you quit).

I realize that that may sound overly negative, and that there are plenty of joys to just getting out and competing with friends of similar skill, but from personal experience as a mid to mid upper pro I can tell you that you have to adjust your thinking if you hope to survive in the Open class. You have to start thinking of entry fees as just that, entry fees, and not as a price for purchasing cheaper or more expensive stacks of plastic or a chance to win a polehole.

To the advanced players out there who have played in events and won, only to be told that they won’t be welcome back the following year as advanced players(something I hear is done frequently) I’d advise you to say thank you very much, and then simply cross that event off of your tour list for the following year. Like I said, I would never have turned pro (now 14 years) if I had known what I now know about our competitive system. Why would you? (Now we’ll probably here from all of the pros who have won thousands of dollars a year for the past 5 to 15 years, or the new pros who have not yet faced life challenges that knock their game down a full notch, telling us that we are just being greedy and not playing for the fun of the sport! Well, it’s pretty easy to keep a positive attitude and preach to others of the benefits of the Open class when you are winning week in and week out.)

I’ve said it before, and I’ll keep on saying it until we fix it, our current competitive system is a one way ride straight out of organized competitive golf. Move up, move up, and then move out. The only people this is not true for is the people who have either been able to extricate themselves from life enough to maintain a high level of play or who are just flat out naturals.

You have asked a question that gets right to the heart of it. Shouldn’t our competitive system offer a way of knowing for certain that it is time to move up and play with the Big Boys? I have an additional question: When are we going to face the ABSOLUTE FACT that we are mainly an organization of RECREATIONAL GOLFERS and not of professionals? I mean, how many professionals are there out there? Really? People that make their living at it… 10 maybe 20!!! How to get more professional golfers is probably the root of all of these challenges. Our current competitive system is based on the concept of generating a new generation of Open players to fill the void of all of the thousands of Open players who have quit. This at great cost to our player base and ability to reach critical mass and mainstream recognition. That is a topic for another thread though.

To your question: I for one hope that it will always remain a matter of choice to turn Professional. That being said, reliable Player & Course Ratings, along with a well thought out system of competitive divisions based on these ratings should alleviate much of what you have observed by giving players the option to play up if they choose, or move down if their rating permits. It would also remove the glass ceiling from all divisions except the top one. By that I mean we would avoid the log jam of the same 20 to 30 players clogging up the top of the lower divisions since they would be constantly in flux with players moving up and players moving down from year to year.

I will save a deeper discussion of Ratings for another thread, but I am now convinced, after talking with folks in my region (probably the single greatest advocate region in the world for ratings) that most do not fully or even partially understand Player & Course Ratings nor do they approach even rudimentary understanding of the benefits of a Ratings Based Competitive System. I have taken it upon myself as a personal goal to see to it that everyone I know and hopefully everyone in the PDGA knows exactly what Ratings Based Competition is about and how it will benefit them.

In closing, my advice to good advanced players is not to turn pro unless you have taken into full and careful consideration the completely different nature of the Open class, and are prepared to face the increased challenges and prerequisite increase in commitment to improving your game. On an extremely positive note we are entering a transition period from the “move up, move up, and then move out” competitive system to the value-added competitive system where you know with qualitative and quantitative certitude that you are competing within the correct division. There most certainly is a light at the end of the dark tunnel.

nk

Ben i am in the same situation as you for the most part. I cashed at am worlds, not as good as 9th, but eneogh i felt it was time to move and since i have moved i have been getting my [*****] handed to me on a silver platter. I get discouraged and try to remember why i am playing open and not going back to advanced. And then i compare my score to the score as the advanced players and as long as my score still cashes in the advanced then i know i am in the right place in the open division (if that makes sense). My mindset is that everyone will pay there dues and if you are cashing in open straight out of advanced you waited to long to move up. Everyone, even the best got there [*****] beat a time or two especially when first starting out.

Best of luck to you

Scott

I just recently moved up to Open In SoCal and I have noticed is there is not that much difference between open and advanced. In Open if I want to cash I have to play well unlike when I played Advanced, but that is how should be. The only things I dont like about Open is how intence some of the players get and how much time it takes players to throw.

Ben, just curious if it is your ability holding you back or is it your tournament game? To have finished 9th in Am Worlds my first impression is that you must have game so it must be your ability when playing Open. I was fortunate when I went from Advanced to Pro because I was of Masters age where I was ready to compete almost immediately. After a year they changed the age up to 40 but I was a little more seasoned and have been able to cash in Open fairly regularly. I certainly can't compete with the top Pros but there are enough of the medium to bottom pros that make it possible for me to cash.
My bottom line to you: Are you playing the same game that got you to 9th in Am Worlds or are you playing poorly in Open, worse than you would be playing if you were playing the same tournament in Advanced.

[seewhere]

Stay ADV Open Players have to put food on the table or don't know where thenext meal will come so they are some CUT THROAT players.. moaning and whining and looking for every little rules infraction they can to try and beat you.. BUNCH of BABY"S

Nick's on the right track with the ratings-based system. We don't have a lot of hardcore touring pros come through Boise, but we do have a strong local competitive player base, and a big part of that is because of our club's handicap system we use for league nights and a few other events during the year. I have an average, and I have to play better than I MYSELF normally do, rather than just beat other locals. If an amateur, even a newbie, plays better than he or she normally plays, that beats me. Then the handicaps are adjusted accordingly, and they have to play even better next time, even though they still may not have to beat me in raw score. This way everyone keeps trying to improve their own game.

One thing I disagree with, though, from Ben's original post:

"The amount of money you receive if you cash is probably not going to compare to the value of merchandise you received for cashing in advanced."

That's right, he said, "CASHING IN ADVANCED."

Here's the definition of the word amateur:

1. one who engages in a pursuit, study, science, or sport as a pastime rather than as a profession.
2. one lacking in experience and competence in an art, science, or sport

IF YOU ARE PLAYING DISC GOLF TO WIN STUFF other than a trophy or the satisfaction of competing well in the spirit of the game, YOU ARE NOT AN AMATEUR.

"Advance Am" is a silly division, or at least should be named something else, like "semi-pro" or "pro silver" or whatever. In my mind, the players in the adv. am division:
1) ARE NOT playing as true "amateurs"
2) ARE motivated by prizes that rival, in value, pro payouts
3) WANT the competitive level of the pro division
4) DO NOT WANT to compete against the top pros.

The true spirit of playing as an amateur is for participation and competitive challenge, and NOT for prizes of any monetary value.

Call me a lofty idealist (or whatever else you want to call me) but it's ridiculous to continue to pay out huge prize packages to "amateurs" in adv. am, and then listen to them say that they're "not ready for pro competition" when in fact that's exactly what they've been doing for their entire existence in advanced am-- playing as a "division 2" pro.

Here's another angle--

You CAN be an amateur and still compete in pro events, because the spirit of amateur is to learn as much as possible about the sport, and a higher competitive level can encourage and catalyze that learning. An amateur that WINS a pro event will refuse winnings because they aren't there for monetary compensation.

You CAN'T, however, be a pro and compete in an amateur division, because a pro is motivated by the prize, be it cash, merchandise, fame, fortune, whatever.

So tell me if a player in the "adv. am" division is really an amateur or not...?

WE NEED TO GET THE RATINGS-BASED THANG GOING!!!! And get these Adv. Ams who are not moving up, for whatever reason, to realize their true motivations and play in a more appropriate competitive bracket.

[rickb]

To answer Ben and some other questions. I know Ben and have played with him.
He has the physical skills to compete with anyone out there. Very fluid and graceful and still has the power to go deep when he needs it.
Something he said is so true about the level of competition here in NC. Even after you go past the well known players, the field is very deep and talented throughout the open ranks. Any open player in the state can light it up on any given weekend.
Ben I honestly believe what you need to focus on is your mental game. I think you need to find a way to boost your confidence and realize that you are one of the better players around. Hey there aren't many people, even those playing cali in a doubles tournament that could shoot a 50 at Renny. That takes alot of skill.
I know that qualifying for this years USDGC is a main goal of yours and I know you'll get in. You might consider playing a few B and C tiers along the way where you have a good chance of cashing to give yourself a boost. Horizons and Olde Hickory are coming up and these are a couple of tournaments where you would do well. I'll even travel with you if you need some company.
Just like in a tournament, don't think about what has already happened but concentrate on what can still happen. Focus and believe in yourself and the rest will fall into place.
See ya at the course.

And seewhere, if a player knows, understands, and plays by the rules (just as every pro-level tournament player should), those cut-throat, whining, moaning, big crybaby pros wouldn't be able to use that to their advantage, would they?

If that player DOESN'T like playing by those rules, however, then maybe he or she shouldn't play in competitive events that are governed by those rules.

All games have rules for a reason -- it's the opportunity to compete within a set of STANDARD LIMITATIONS enforced equally upon all participants. If someone doesn't stay within those limitations, they gain an unfair advantage over other players (regardless of whether those other players are whining moaning crybabies or not!) and to compensate for those unfair advantages, penalties are assessed.
Try looking at it like that, rather than seeing it as someone trying to slit your throat.

[Yeti]

"In closing, my advice to good advanced players is not to turn pro unless you have taken into full and careful consideration the completely different nature of the Open class, and are prepared to face the increased challenges and prerequisite increase in commitment to improving your game."
I agree that player ratings might soon help define who is ready to play what division but, you said it above-One must decide if they are ready to commit. Commit to practicing your game, working on your weak points, strengthening your strong points. Not at the course, either. Advanced players can practice by cramming in round after round. Pros practice off the course, big difference. I too, just having turned Pro have realized it is a lot more than just signing up Pro and paying more. You have to commit to improving beyond the top of advanced. Just playing with better players and studying, then repeating on my own is starting to rear its head in game improvement. The mental thing takes time and only improves with exposure to those conditions repeatedly, ask anyone. Good luck, hopefully, increased challenges is what makes this sport fun for you.

[seewhere]

YO yeti, Hope we see you guys back in TEXAS again soon.. Good luck where ever you guys decide to go next. Tell DES to keep it up she is an AWESOME player..It was nice meeting both of you while you where here in our BIG state..DRIVE SAFELY.. yours Truely SEEWHERE "Brazos CRUSHER" ROUND ROCK..

The main problem that exists between Advanced and Open is this:

As the sport progresses, the talent at the top gets better and deeper. There are players who are trying to make a go at making enough through winnings and sponsorship to play full time. What Yeti describes so well, is the commitment needed to compete on a true pro level (this indicates a good thing to me).

On the other hand, you have very good players that can't make this type of commitment (for many different reasons - this is the same in many sports).

It doesn't matter what you call it. It doesn't matter what type system is in place.

From this day forward, only a select few disc golfers will be able to truly compete on a professional level (same as most sports).

The rest will be competeting for something else. Call it whatever you want. Reward them however you like. Fact is, some Amateur World Champs will never make it as pros (same as other sports).

It all makes sense to me.

Benjamin, I have a simple explanation as to why you are not doing so well in the open division. What did you shoot first round at Am Worlds last year? But after that you settled down and kicked [*****]. In a four round tournament, you cannot afford to have a bad round if you expect to do well in open. In advanced you can shoot 10 strokes off the lead score in the first round and still be able to win the tournament. I think that the key to success in open is making sure that your worst tournament round is merely average and not bad. Ben you are one hell of a player and if you would let your elbow heal, and quit worrying about a bad hole you would be cashing easily.

JUST DO IT

Ben,

You have no choice...you are a good golfer on your way to being a great golfer. It may take longer than you like but please be persistant.

I think I understand how you feel. I have been competing in the Open division here in NC for 9 years and have only had 1 Open PDGA win. I also cash less than 40% of the time in PDGA events.

[gang4010]

Ben,

Try and find a copy of "Mental Toughness Training for Sports" author is Loehrer I believe. It has lots of great stuff to help you get your head in a good place for competition.

I bought it very early on and it helped me to the PDGA R.O.Y. in 1988 - I recommend it to everybody who asks what to do for a good head game.

Also any of the "Inner Game" books are also very helpful i.e. Inner Game of Golf, Tennis, etc.

Hang tough - you're swimming with the sharks, down there in NC - but that doesn't mean you can't be just as good as they are /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif Stick with it, and if money is an issue - pick and choose your larger events so that it's more affordable.

[neonnoodle]

I'm particularly glad that the PDGA is doing more than saying,” There, there, it'll be ok, just hang in there. There's nothing we can really do to fix this problem anyway. Just get a positive attitude and bare it." No, they're smarter than that. They know that one day almost every disc golfer will face exit door under our current system. They are in the process of setting up detour signs in front of that exit door that will leading folks to divisions where they don't feel like donators, but where they actually belong.

We should all be thankful and excited to have a PDGA BOD on the move and taking the lead instead of the couch potato pontiff's out there that just spout off about stuff they have no insight deeper than their next stack o'plastic about.

The current competitive system is not ok, and changing to a ratings based system WILL certainly make a difference. Anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional.

The only folks that should be deeply concerned are the Bandsaggers out there who are about to be faced with the challenge of playing in divisions where the competition can take them out on any given day.

I do feel a little sorry for all of my aging friends with ratings above 960 who will once again face the players who on average shoot a few strokes better than them, I've been there and it is a rough spot. But I would rather our competitive system protect the meat of our membership rather than just cater to the people that have found a free ride of sorts.

Take a look at the document at MADC 2002 Player Ratings By Ratings (http://www.madisc.org/2002ratings/02MADCRBR.htm).

Yeah boy. The Advanced players are all over your pros. A real crime. I sure hope someone does something about it before it's too late.

So MADC has a tournament with it's 224 ranked players in one division. The ratings system being the beautiful thing that it is...we will assume the players finish in order of rating. Today the MADC will be paying the top third (75) players...

Meaningful money will be paid to the top ten..
4 top spots (the real money) goes to Open Pros.
5th spot to a Master
Next 4 spots...Open Pros
Last of the top ten...a Master

That's 8 out of the top 10 to Pro Open. Quick! Will someone pleeeaaase stop this madness!

Out of the top 75 players...are you ready for this hideousness! 11 Amateurs would cash. OOOHHH, the carnage! The top AM cash position would be...are you ready?????? A blistering tie for 41st!

The divisional system is horrible. Choice is horrible. See what it does???

Kinda reminds of Chicken Little. Seems to be some people running about trying to stir up hysteria.

Some people act as if the ratings system is being held up by those that are afraid of it. I could be wrong...but I think one of the main things that is delaying it's implementation is simply the amount of work and the logistics of it's creation.

Well, looks like the MADC might just be able to make it until the ratings system can be done properly before the MADC is blown to pieces by sandbagging.

I went open last year not because I felt I could cash, but to learn and force myself to practice more, and to avoid unpleasant moments that are more prevalent in the am ranks. Still no pdga cash but I'll keep at it.

Given a worlds type payout (worlds payed out close to 75 places) at the MADC tournament...

Open players would take $11,481 out of the top 10.

Masters would take $1,899 out of the top ten.

Given these figures...looks like a Masters division is viable. (I know there's at least 1 Master age player in the top ten that would probably want to take a shot at winning the over 40 division - shouldn't hurt anything)

Oh yeah...the top Amateur casher would take $300. All of this...just about the way it should be in a world without hysterical whiners.

[neonnoodle]

The document I posted above is simply a spread sheet with all PDGA players from our region in order of rating, with the divisional breaks where Chuck has suggested. You can check out other related stuff about the MADC at www.madisc.org. (http://www.madisc.org.)

My message to Ben is simple, beyond the well wishers and good advice, a system is being put in place that will let you know when you should play with the big boys or when you should play with RW. That the PDGA understands your situation, and that you and people in your situation are a top priority, because most of our membership are people with ratings between 900 and 960, and keeping a place by the fire for you is in their best interest. Even if you never become a 980 rated golfer the PDGA will have a place where you can compete with others of similar skill.

Again, I think that most of this comes down to ignorance about how the ratings system works, general fear of change of any kind, and lack of understanding for how each of us will fit within this system. The theory of ever pushing people up and out of the sport has been certifiably debunked, the time for even greater diversity and inclusion is at hand. Bandsaggers and the evil empire organizers (if they exist) will be swept aside for the good of the sport, mark my words.

PS: Randy has probably stopped reading this by this point, so just between you and me a portion of me writes in this style just to put him in a tizzy. He is particularly funny when he's on the defensive and trying to figure out how to argue about something for which he has no knowledge. You gotta hand it to him though, he just keeps on comin' /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif If you did make it through this RW, take a sedative, I'm on Ben's and your side on this one. It's just that I'm just actually doing something about it instead of just preaching the old testament according to DG.

In DG one is expected to move up even though one does not have a realistic chance of winning one's money back. 50$ a tournament isn't petty cash either.

I have lately been accused of sandbagging, but I have no intention of moving up until I think I have a decent chance of getting some money back. I don't play for the plastic (My biggest payout yet has been 5 discs and a tee shirt, I still think the lower payouts in the NW are a good thing, but the entry fees could be lower /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif ), but I just can't afford to play pro.

I would love to get a chance to play with the pros as I recognize that I risk stalling out my game unless I become more competitive. I think a sys. where qualified AMs are given a TD permission to play in pro should be able to play pro for the AM entry fee (and forfeit all chances of cashing). This would allow qualified AMs to test the waters, increase pro pots and decrease "sandbagging".

I know exactly what your "spread sheet" is Nick.
It's undeniable proof of what I have known all along.

So...in the ratings system, will players like Justin be forced to pay higher amounts for entry fees so they can play in the protected division that will feature Nick Kight?

In other words, I am of the opinion that the TRUE protected division is coming. A division that caters to players that don't want to play for discs (I know the truth-playing for discs is meaningless). A division that plays for each others cash. Smaller amounts, yes. A division that gets to call themselves pros.

All in the guise of stopping protected divisions. All in the guise of a true amateur class. All in the guise of stopping amateurs from gambling.

Yep. The ultimate protected division, full of amateurs playing for their entry fees. Only difference? They play for cash.

So they will be known as pros.

Money in. Money out. Yep. This is gonna be what puts disc golf on the map!

PROTECTED

My .02 is this.

There are only certain people that truely have the time, energy, and ablity to go pro. When you use PRO in the terms that Climo, Russel, and Martin are true Pro's. The rest are fillers, swaying in the midst of these guys.
I am married with 2 kids a job and I am also a full time student. That right there takes away to critical elements, of becoming a pro.
To the gentelmen that finished 9th CONGRTATS. But consider the 3 elements of becoming a pro. Do you have them all? Do want to have them all? I read Sugar's interview and it stated that after a couple of marriages he had made his choice. Now he's at the top of our sport. But not with out sacrifice to obtain the 3 elements to be considered a true pro. Many of these guys have paid their dues in terms of sacrifice. Even the top women had to for go a marraige, secure pay check and a home (that did not roll) to be were she is at.
My point is that when we ADV players consider our options those are the things we must look at. I will most likely never go pro. Due to the fact that I will never commit to all 3 elements. I give the sport all I can but it will never be enough unless I can drop everything and commit to it the way I do to my wife, kids and school.
take care and love the game the best way that you know how.
Jason 15385

Quick plug!!
1 disc challenge
Bradley park
peoria IL
May 26th 2002
Tee-10am
1st round 1 disc
2nd all your discs

I won my first two PDGA events in advanced last month, and now I am considering quitting the sport. I remember cursing the baggers who beat me the last couple of years, and now that I am the bagger, I am not enjoying it very much. I have lost my passion for the sport. Last year at this time I would be on the course or practicing almost every day. Now I only play once a week in league. My biggest problem is that I have no desire whatsoever to play this sport for money (before anyone comments on my winnings this year, I will let you know that I have donated the 15 discs and $170 in gift certificates I have won to juniors or league).

I feel I am in disc golf limbo, too good to play am, but no desire at all to play open.

I bought my first fishing license in two years this last weekend and brought my fly rod out of retirement. I have a feeling I will be spending more time on the river than on the course this summer.

If anyone has any suggestions on how I can regain my passion for the sport, I would be willing to listen.

I can not comment on how it feels to be tagged a bagger. However the passion must come from with in and not were you place or who says what. I have been guilty of calling people a bagger (usally friends that I golf with) There is nothing wrong with winning. If it becomes a pattern and your score are cashing in the pro's give it a go. Maybe you have what it takes to excel at the next level. After 9 years I have just found my way in to the leader cards in the ADV. Although I have found that running tourneys has sparked a new passion for the game. Try not to let them get to you. We can't all be pros even if we win a few events in the ADV. Read my last and make a choice. Good luck dude, DONT STOP PLAYING remeber why you started and just golf.
Jason

Try putting something back into the sport that has given you pleasure and satisfaction in the past. Spearhead the start of a new course, start or help an existing club, volunteer yourself in any way possible to help out new players or show the sport to people that know nothing about it.

Or just take a break for a while, usually the competitive juices will start again after some time away.

Jeff, I don't know where you are playing. Your "winnings" don't seem to indicate playing in a big market.

If you played in major tournaments as an advanced player, I think your competition would be alot better.

I said that to say this: You are doing your competition a big favor. They need to know that to compete at Worlds, or most B-tier events in large markets, they are going to have to play on a very high level to compete in the top Amateur division.

There are many of us that don't consider anyone sandbagging in Advanced divisions. Take solice in this: (or take it as a challenge to renew your vigor) There is no way you could dominate the Advanced division in Texas. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Kick the pretenders rear ends and send them back down to intermediate where they belong. /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

Ben wrote:
Is there ever going to be an opportunity to compete in events which solely rely on past performance and ability to divide us into realistic divisions?

Hey Ben,
With a rating of 980 you will get nothing from ratings based divisions except fewer competitors rated lower than yourself. On the other hand, a rating of 980 would seem to indicate that you are capable of competing with almost anyone. ;)
Mark S. is right about the one bad round thing. Patience.

.

[bruce_brakel]

"I would love to get a chance to play with the pros as I recognize that I risk stalling out my game unless I become more competitive. I think a sys. where qualified AMs are given a TD permission to play in pro should be able to play pro for the AM entry fee."

Come play Shadow Doubles, June 8, 2002. For $10 you can play for the trophy only in any division at or above your PDGA division. [see, <a href="http://www.clubkensington.org" target="_blank">www.clubkensington.org (www.clubkensington.org)</A> for further details.]

[billr]

Ben,you make some good points. I have played adv.master for three years. After winning several tournaments I have decided to play pro master. My first three tournaments I haven't cashed but have been close, frustrating. One bad round kills you that's for sure. For me the biggest difference is the mental aspect. Its tough to stay focused for three or four rounds of golf on every shot but you have to, to be competitive. You can't just walk up to a 400 hole and wing the s**t out of it, you have to think I need to be to the right side of the basket so I'm not putting a 50 footer into a strong head wind and flirting with OB. Sounds easy but is harder to do than I realized. Clearing your mind is a great point. If I am thinking about what I need to do on a 30' putt, while I am putting, I will miss. I know this and still do it sometimes. Everyone is more serious, since they are basically playing for everyone elses entry fees. Alot of people don't like this challenge (but I do) and that's cool too. Play where you feel comfortable and have fun. That's what it should be all about anyway. Don't worry about what people say. Moving up now is alot different than it would have been ten years ago because the level of play and number of players has increased with the popularity of the sport. I have a wife, two kids, and a job so I can only play a couple of times a week, but try to putt everyday and throw at a soccer field near my house a couple of times a week. Practice off the course has helped my game alot. One good thing about being 42 is I don't have to make the jump and play against Climo, Todd, etc. But my goal is to play pro master this year and next, and then if my game has improved enough and my body holds out to play open. Good luck and be patient.
Bill Ragan 15769

[Pizza God]

I moved up after placing 30th out of 180 at Am Worlds. It only took 8 or 9 months, but I finaly cashed at a B-tier.

I have 2 stores, a wife and 2 kids now. I don't get to play very much. But I go out and try to have fun. I have been playing for 14 years now, I don't do it for the money. I go play for the fun of it.

pdga cash
1999 $114
2000 $0
2001 $140 at Waco A-tier T12th place
2002 $0

I will say that I moved up to Pro to get ready for Masters in 3 years. I would have been able to play master right now but after cashing in 99 they moved the Masters age on me.

Look out, I hope to go on tour in 2006 in Masters.

[my_hero]

Wimm made me move up/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif I'd like to thank my better half, Amy. I'd like to thank my sponsor, me. Oh yea, I'd like to thank Randy Wimm, i'm unsure why, but it sounds appropriate.

$205 last year, and $150 (maybe a little more) so far this year. Am I breaking even? No, but I'm competeing and enjoying it.

My Hero, you are a mutated species. People that have never practiced and can cash in Open should move up. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[neonnoodle]

Most people here are answering the question according to our current competitive system, which makes sense to a degree. But with the PDGA committed to moving towards a Skill Based Competitive System in mind, my advice would be to hold off on turning pro regardless. There simply is no reason to turn pro unless you think you can A) make a living at it B) Win more than you are currently winning in the Advanced class or C) want a chance to compete against the best.

Specific to RW's comments concerning the spreadsheet based on the PDGA's recommended divisional set up for Ratings Based events using MADC players as examples, my intention is only to illustrate how such a system would function. If it is of benefit to me Great! If not, but it is to the majority of the players, top to bottom, Great!

The PDGA is allowing all but the top division to accept prizes in lieu of cash, so your point concerning the elimination of golfers who prefer to play for prizes is slightly shy of reality.

If you want the truth behind my motivations, you don’t have to come up with any Freudian hypothesis, it’s quite simple. I want to be able to continue in organized competitions, playing against people of similar skill, and have the same opportunities open to the vast middle members of the PDGA.

This is not really even a Professional versus Amateur issue. If players are able to move up and down the competitive scale according to their quantifiable skill level and compete for cash or prizes within all but the top division, then whether you are listed as a Pro or Am really has no significance other than in what form you would like your winnings. Furthermore, even the Top division permits Amateurs to compete; they simply must refuse the cash to retain Amateur status. If our PDGA World Championships eventually transition to Ratings Based Divisions, which it would seem natural that they would, under the current set up Ams and Pros could compete side by side, accept their form of prize, be crowned THE amateur and professional world champion, and their would be no if, ands or buts about who the winners were.

The hardest part for me to fathom was that the old divisional concepts like Intermediate, Advanced, Open, Masters, Grand Masters, etc, hold no meaning whatsoever in the Ratings Based Competitive System. Divisions will be set purely according to our overall demographic and skill levels to maximize inclusion and fair competition.

So people who play for prizes rather than cash is not a real challenge for the new ratings based competitive system. Again, the PDGA is fully aware of where our bread is buttered and is taking action so that our competitive system can fall in line.

Feel free to continue arguing the great conservative gospel, it’s always interesting to hear the same old thing described in a new and sometimes humorous way. The world will keep on turning and progress will be made, regardless of our pleas to remain the same.

[Sharky]

I'm with you Nick, bring on ratings based competition. "The dogs bark, but the caravan moves on."

Cram it. I'm for a ratings system, you twits. But all of Nicks jargon has nothing to do with it. It will bring order and attention to the lower am ranks which unless I'm mistaken is a priority with Chuck and probably where we will see it first.

Bark at that.

[seewhere]

woof woof

[my_hero]

bark at the moon

Who let the dogs out????

[my_hero]

How do i throw my MRV or ROC?

Bow, Wow, Wow...Yippe Yi, Yippe Yo

[ck34]

There will be benefits from skill brackets all thru the ranks, not the least of which is the lower am players. With firm ratings breaks, hosting national championships for that level can occur. Note that earning PDGA points and divisions at Am Worlds haven't been offered for Intermediate Am and lower divisions primarily because who played in those divisions wasn't controllable. Solid and regularly updated ratings opens up the potential to excite 10 times the number of current players for points and championships.

Contrary to some opinions, the top players will not suffer. First, all added cash goes to the top division (other than pro women). All of our test events in 2000 had larger open fields and a higher first prize than they would have had with regular divisions (except Peoria who didn't follow the guidelines). Second, adding many more Am players at the bottom makes the sport more viable for sponsors in the longer run.

[willyc]

I want to be a cowboy and you can be my cowgirl.

[woodpecker]

Oh poop on all of it!!!!!!!!

[neonnoodle]

I'm rubber you're glue, whatever you say bounces off of me and sticks to you. Ah hah.

[woodpecker]

OOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

[seewhere]

oh well here goes this thread down the SH*TTER

[neonnoodle]

I thought that that would put you in your place. And don't think that I don't have more!

[neonnoodle]

Did you expect any different Underwhere?

[seewhere]

not REALLY KIIKE.

[neonnoodle]

I don't get it. But Underwhere is always funny. Hah hah hah! Underwhere!

Chuck,

Could you clarify your statement:

"Second, adding many more Am players at the bottom makes the sport more viable for sponsors in the longer run."

Thanks,

[seewhere]

I tried KIIKE with 1 I but it put red dots on it??

[my_hero]

Briefs, boxers, or underoos?

[seewhere]

thong tha tha thong thong

[ck34]

It's the same scenario as the huge amateur base in ball golf. The demographics, habits and numbers of these players are known for advertiser and sponsor purposes. Having more disc golfers as members of any disc related organization infers that there are that many more players out there that play that are just uncounted. Kind of how advertisers use some figure like 3.2 as the readership of each magazine so the number of people they potentially reach is really 3.2 times the number of issues sold.

I agree with Chuck concerning the lower amateur ranks. I think simply giving these players an identity will increase membership.

Question to Chuck...as players rise up into higher brackets, will they be forced to pay higher membership fees, entry fees and eventually forced to be professionals?

Acedaze, Stooge and Randy: Thanks for you encouragement.

Acedaze, I would have been 2nd and 3rd in Open Masters in the two tourneys I won advanced, and I can play Masters next year (if there will be such a division with the ratings system taking effect).
I am not worried about being about being able to compete at the next level.

Stooge, I have already put in a course in the small town I work for, I am the webmaster for the Grateful Disc club's website, and I have put on clinics for newbies in the past. Your fourth suggestion of just taking a break may be what I need.

Randy, I don't want to live in Texas, but I would love to play there. I am not even dominating the competition here in Colorado, but if I end up winning the series in Adv., I have to move up. I may end up not playing any tourneys here in Colorado next year, and just hit a few big ones out of state.

Sorry this post is so far down the line from my first.

Hey Jeff, I will be in Aspen to play the Kiss the Sky. You should come play so I can yell sandbagger if you win! /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Open Masters is a contradiction in terms.

[ck34]

> Question to Chuck...as players rise up into higher brackets, will they be forced to pay higher membership fees?

No plans I'm aware of.

> entry fees?

Entry fees will be proposed to step down by division just as they pretty much do now.

> and eventually forced to be professionals?

I don't believe anyone will be forced to accept cash (turn pro). However, players with ratings above whatever threshold is set for the top division may be required to play there. Perhaps they will get lower entry fees. Or, some form of the famous NK true amateur division option with lower entry fees is not out of the question to deal with high rated ams who don't want to turn pro.

One thing to expect will be for pros to get/earn a tour card. This is being discussed in relation to the National Tour series being planned for next year. It's still in "idea" mode. No specifics have even been discussed and my guess is it's probably a year or two premature. However, perhaps at some point, once an am gets a rating above a certain point, they'll have the option to try and qualify for their pro tour card or remain in an Open true am division similar to the ball golf model.

Much of this is contingent on successfully moving forward step by step. No moves are being made quickly and each step along the way in the transition will be analyzed and hashed over by the Board, and certainly this Discussion Board, before the next steps are made.

I don't think there is any question it will be a great thing for the lower am divisions. I hope it starts there (alot less problems and I think high dividend) and works it's way upward.

All good replies. Thanks for the advice and I hope many others have benefitted as well. This has definately helped me. Good luck to all. A final note to those who are considering moving up: If you are serious about disc golf and want to improve your game, the choice is obvious, move up. My advice is prepare yourself first, and ask questions. I have.

Ben

In Chuck's previous (2000) proposal for ratings, he goes into specifics about split divisions for amateurs and pros, and their estimated brackets. For instance, you could have a pro division, obviously playing for cash, with brackets setup at =950. You could then have an amateur division, playing for prizes (discs, trophies) with brackets 900. This allows people, such as those that posted above, that have a rating higher than 900, but are not professional, to still play at an amateur level. The entry fees are lower and the payouts are less (and flatter) than the professional division. You can always play up in the brackets, and amateurs could still play as pros, but once they accept cash, the commitment is made.

Another issue is where to split the actual brackets. It may make sense to base the bracket-splitting on demographics and expected attendence. You wouldn't hold a C-tier with a top bracket of 960 in the MADC, because there aren't that many 960 players that will travel, likewise, you wouldn't have a 940 for a Supertour, as the top group will contain a very large amount of players and the spread of ratings will span almost 80 points (or approx. 8 strokes per round.) A tough decision of the Ratings committee will be how this will be done consistently and efficiently...

Chuck, any comments? Is there a new(er) proposal out there?

Look for demographics to be posted on the MADC site in the near future. This will help all you number freaks get a better grasp of how the ratings are spread throughout the PDGA and across the current division structure. (Freaks is meant to be complimentary, as I'm one of them too!)

-J

[Sharky]

Where would a pro with a rating of 908 fit in ?
I guess I'll explain. I'm an occasional cashing Grandmaster with a 908 rating, still improving, looking to move my rating up to perhaps 940. I'm a perfect candidate for the 900-950 class but I have accepted cash.

[neonnoodle]

Mark,

Look yourself up at the MADC website MADC Rating By Rating 2002 (http://www.madisc.org/2002Ratings/02MADCRBR.htm). You can see the kind of competition you'd be facing. People like John Merhi, John Duesler, and Tom Edwards.

Nick

[ck34]

There will be more posted about the steps moving forward with ratings. The first goal is to get completely caught up with ratings and demonstrate that they can consistently updated. Theo and Roger are crunching hard to get this accomplished by July.

The key for ongoing updates is getting Guru flying with the new database which will quickly process all tourney reports submitted on the Excel template provided for TDs. I believe he's expecting to have this accomplished by September. Once TDs for future events know that current, accurate ratings are available, I believe more will try the ratings format.

The other barrier to be removed is the need for TDs of ratings events to reshuffle players back into their standard PDGA division to calculate points. We've developed an integrated points system that allows points to be fairly awarded no matter what event format. You'll hear more on that later once the PDGA Board has a chance to review the proposal and tweak it.

BTW Mark, it's expected that players entering the Expert divisions (over 900) will have the option to accept cash or prizes depending on whether they wish to retain eligibility for Am championships.

[neonnoodle]

My understanding from the PDGA is that this is the case for all but the top ratings division. A sore spot as you know for me.

If their were parallel tracks I would turn Am and never look back. I have never seen myself as a pro golfer except maybe in my first year or two. I'm a recreational golfer for sure right now even having played 5 PDGAs this year. I think that 98% of PDGA members are recreational golfers, including many of the top ones who have the ives. (Wives and Lives)

It wouldn't hurt to take this into account as we develop and impliment this new system. Still, I'll take the system exactly as Chuck has laid it out over the current bum rush to the exit door system we currently have. (Note: I fully understand that it is not a bum rush system for those who have been winning in it over the years, but that is a slim few...)

Nick Kight

When he leaves a trail of sand everywhere.

Props to Ben Budd (who started this thread way back when), who cashed in Open for the first time this weekend at the Big Valley Challenge! Playing on the lead card, Ben canned a 18' putt on the final hole to forge a three-way tie with Walter Haney and Chris Lee for second, 1 stroke behind Larry Leonard, then won the shootout for the 2nd place trophy. Way to go, Ben!

Did he accept the cash?

Does anyone know who won advanced at the Big Valley?

Paul Piper won the advanced.

Ben Budd accepted the cash.

[seewhere]

Congrats Ben and Paul, NOW move up BAG Piper.. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[rickb]

Piper won???? thought he was going into semi retirement after Kingsport.

Props to Ben. Real happy for ya man. I knew you had it in you to play with the big boys.

I think PP is attempting to follow in CLF's footsteps.

nc tradition ;)

way to go ben.

Only in recent years.

[Moderator005]

If more tournaments were ratings-based (with the appropriate PR 925-955 Silver division) or if the Pro2 division is given half a chance, this won't be an issue anymore.

[dannyreeves]

Well, it hasn't been an issue (on this thread) for almost 2 years. lol

[quickdisc]

Well, it hasn't been an issue (on this thread) for almost 2 years. lol


Should we keep it going ? /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[dannyreeves]

Everyone just move up and then it will all be cool. :cool:

I say keep everyone guessing and play 4 different divisions in a year. :)

[dannyreeves]

How many do you have so far this year?

[okcacehole]

I say keep everyone guessing and play 4 different divisions in a year. :)



thought you said it was actually 5?