Dave (and others), ultimate players need your help!!!

There has recently been a discussion on rec.sport.disc (google group, ulty version of this forum) on the best techniques for "pulling," the pull being ultimate's version of a kick-off.

The dimensions of an ultimate field are 25 yard endzones, 70 yard long field, all 40 yards in width. A pull is thrown from one endzone line towards the other and should land in the playing field or endzone (anything else is OB and taken 20 yards from the opposite endzone, so OB pulls should be avoided).
Thus, a good pull should be about 80 yards (240 ft) long and fairly accurate, hopefully within about 10 yards of target. The tough part is that hang time is very important. A pull that is too low will reach the opposing team long before the defenders have time to run from their endzone to the disc, thereby allowing several passes up the field unchallenged (similar to a low punt in football).
As an avid DGer, I have plenty of distance and accuracy on my pulls, but lack the hang time. Others have the float, but lack distance.

Any advise on proper pulling technique for the max distance/float/accuracy combination? Any help would be much appreciated (keep in mind we are using 175 ultrastars, ie lids)
thanks,
-jv

Justin...
I played in college a bit, and consider myself a decent thrower...With ultrastars, more distance is usually correlated with good height. You throw an ultrastar 10 ft. off the ground, and it won't go very far(unlike a disc). Throw it about 20-30 ft. high with some hyzer (enough to get it to flip just a bit), and you'll see the distance come quickly.

Hope this helps...
I must defer to the knowledge of my nemesis here, Mr. MOJO Reiser aka Fluke Reiser...Mike Randolph aka OB-JO says he can bring the game with him too. Good thread.

[nix]

My 2¢ should be paid to you, cause it aint worth much....
But-
Arm speed is getting your distance.
Disc spin is getting the hang time.
Increase disc spin to increase hang time.
To do that, follow the advice of all these other guys & gals.../msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif/msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif/msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

Crush the disc!!!

He wants accuracy too Kirk...

I always found in Ultimate that heigth plus spin equaled hang time and distance. When throwing into a strong wind, hyzering the disc a lot and really spinning it as you let it go works for me to get it to go out, stall and hover, and then drop straight down. You don't want it to go out and come right back at you as it drops. You also want hang time when throwing with the wind too so your defense has a chance to get down the field and cover the offense.

One of my problems in switching to disc golf is that I could really pull well in Ultimate and throw long too -- but I always did so with a lot of float for hang time, while with golf discs it seems like you have to keep em low and fast to get a lot of distance. When they stall, they drop and go left. Keeping the nose down rather than up is helpful too.

Speed, spin and height are all good, but what type of throw should you use to get these? Throwing with the nose up is a good start, but what specific body movements do you want. Full turn around or face the target? Stiff wrist or active wrist snap? What plane do you want to throw in, across the chest or starting at your knees and following through high. Disc dynamics are different with an ulty disc and while I think we all know that speed, spin and height are optimal characteristics in a pull, how to achieve them is the question.

[Sharky]

the 'ole 166 proline beast flies nice 8 feet up /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[Sharky]

By the way with a putter or ulti disc you are correct, high is the way to go.

Justin, there are many techniques -- the key is to find what works best for you. I never liked the 360 turnaround to pull -- I could get just about the same distance without it, and I had better accuracy and better focus to run down under it and mark or man should he be the first one to come up with the disc. Not doing a 360 also made it easier to throw to one side or a corner (without going OB) so that the defense could get set -- especially if throwing a zone at a team. Throwing out the back of the endzone wasn't a good idea, becuase then the 'brick' rule usually applied where the thrower got to set up in the middle at the 20 yard line. (although that did allow everyone to get down and cover their man from the get-go). A fast pull to the back of the endzone meant the possibility of two or three throws getting off before the defense could get set. A slightly shorter pull with more hangtime therefore was more effective in the overall scheme of things.
A high pull that took forever to come down was what I went for -- which was easier to do into the wind. But with enough spin and the right kind of heigth it works downwind as well.
For me, an active wrist was the key to getting the disc to go out and stay out and hover before coming down (instead of going out and coming right back at ya) I never really thought about how I did it, but I would say I started about waist high on the back swing and then shoulder high at release. I used the wind to help the disc do what I needed it to do. First get to where you can consistently throw out the back of the endzone, then work on heighth and hangtime.
get a friend to go to one side of a field and pull back and forth to each other and experiment (switch sides too to practice opposite winds)

I am still trying to learn to get good distance with golf discs. Putters best resemble Ultimate discs.

[davei]

When I played, I used an MTA technique. Basically throw relative high attack angle with as much nose down as you can. In other words, aim about 25ft over the opposing team's head, with the nose of the disc down. The idea is to get height with a disc that is flying relatively flat with respect to ground. If your nose is up throwing upwind, your distance and accuracy will suffer. If your nose is up downwind, the disc will drop too soon.

I think a key for me was learning something that doesn't seem as useful in disc golf -- and that is to get a disc to just hover without moving much. In Ultimate that is a great way to throw to an area where your receiver is running rather than straight at him (and his defender). If someone is breaking open deep -- you can throw it far in front of him and let is just hang there till s/he runs under it. As you said, hang time (MTA) is a big thing with pulls. By learning to get the disc to hover on short throws, you can then translate the same technique to long and high throws. Hope that helps.

aim 25ft high with the nose down? I'm confused, how do you do that without putting anhyser on the disc or being 25ft tall? Could you elaborate a bit more on the technique? It sounds like a great method to learn.

I've been pulling as follows (basic DG throw with a few modifications):
Starting at my waist and following through high (instead of straight across the chest)
Only turning my hips and shoulders 45 degree away from target (instead of 90), this helps reduce speed as it seems too high of a speed to spin ratio just makes the disc flutter and go nowhere.
I keep my wrist taunt but use a three finger grip to add more spin and also reposition the disc in my hand so that it the nose is up.
I try to throw a high, slight hyser that flattens out and flies straight.
-jv

[davei]

Justin, you need to hold your wrist down as far as it will go and keep it there. That is what controls the nose of the disc. High spin does not make the disc flutter per se. Off axis torque does. Make sure you snap the disc in a single plane. When you don't, you produce torque and flutter the disc. Frisbee type discs can be thrown much higher than high tech golf discs as the flight characteristic of the taller frisbee type disc tends to bring its nose down as it flies. This allows you to throw it higher with (wrist) down, and still get it to fly relatively flat with respect to the ground.

Hey Justin, Dave is correct. Crazy John showed me that same technique a few years ago. I thought he was out of his gourd...."How can I throw it high and nose down at the same time?" I kept saying to myself. A few weeks later out in the practice field I got it! And yes, there is a little anhyser to it. But the height combined with nose down makes it go long and tower down. <FONT SIZE="-2">as Don Olow says</FONT>

oops, Dave's already checked in.... I should've hit the refresh button... /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[quickdisc]

Thanks Rich. Yes ,Dave Dunipace's explanation is
Correct. It does take some practice to "Lift" the
Disc with nose down.

[tbender]

I roll for a pull.... /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

to setup zones (esp. in wind) on the favored sideline.....

[morgan]

You people are wasting your time kicking off with a backhand. The best possible kickoffs by far in ultimate, without question, are overhand wrist flips (if only people still used it). Good for 80 yards with lots more hang time than you could ever dream of getting with a backhand.

Throw way up high with nose down? Hard to do with a backhand, but automatic with the OWF because you are releasing it over your head (if you're 6 feet tall that's 7 feet high) and the nose is automatically down.

If only the kids these days could learn from us who played ultimate in the golden age of frisbee play. The overhand wrist flip is unfortunately a lost art now, like sailing tall ships.

Here's my claim...take a good ultimate team, teach everybody on the team the overhand wrist flip so they know it cold, and you have just turned a good team into an unbeatable team. I know that's true, because I did just that in college. (Of course, as soon as I graduated, the team back to the sissy backhand throw)

Obviously it worked for you Morgan /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif I can't imagine an OHBH making my backhand look sissified, but you sound pretty convincing so if i were younger i might try it. By OHBH do you mean a throw where my arm is held out at my side about shoulder heigth and the knuckles of my hand face the direction i am throwing, the palm of my hand faces behind me, and my thumb is closest to the ground and my pinky up in the air?
In ultimate, if that were your strength I would camp out marking your right side and force you to throw a backhand. (i am thinking it is a throw from the side a forehand throw would also be thrown). Do you drive for distance in disc golf with an overhand backhand? Have you been able to teach people who prefer backhand to go with that throw?

I'm assuming by overhand wrist flip you mean a hammer(upside down, forehand grip)? This is one of the worst throws against any kind of decent defense. Sure you can hit a wide open man, but throwing to a cut is tough since you can't float them and still have them be accurate. They are the hardest throw to control and also the hardest throw to read since they follow an S curve. I have been playing on Oregon for 4 years and when I first started playing we had a lot of people throwing hammers. Gradually we have moved away from them since they have a higher turnover ratio then any other throw and this year we were one of the top teams in the nation (first loosers at Natties).

Dave,
when you say wrist down do you mean rotating your wrist (so that if you were wearing a watch the face would be facing down) or moving your hand downward (leaving the watch face aimed the same direction as before)?
thanks,
-jv

ohaiyo gozaimas from tokyo, japan. if you really wanna crush an ultrastar - best disc ever(in simpson's comic book guy voice) - you gotta release it with around a 45 degree hyzer angle with the intent of putting it around 20-30 feet in the air. if you've got the arm speed it'll flip up easy and hang and float fer ever. as rich said ther'll be a little anhyzer, but thats not from throwing with an anhyzer angle. you release with hyzer and the ultrastar's inherent understability(at high speeds) will roll it over into an anhyzer flight. with a newer disc and a nice crush, you should be able to put a lid much further than the 240 foot length of the feild.
-mr. mojo

[morgan]

Justin, no, it's not a hammer.

Rob, yes, it's as you described, and yes I threw for distance years ago and always won, but unfortunately you can't throw golf polymer very well with the OWF as I discovered, because it doesn't have as much arm speed. Golf discs require arm speed, frisbees require power. The OWF has amazing power but no arm speed, it's like first gear on a car. Good for lids, good for a 4 pound discus, lousy for golf polymer.

Just consider, the olympic discus throwers use the OWF posture with their 4 pound discs (only they hold it with 4 fingers instead of the thumb). Imagine if a discus thrower tried to use a backhand? Now THAT would look like a sissy throw.

Thanks for clearing that up Morgan. I found some of your posts on this in the archives a while back, and wanted to try and figure out what throw you were talking about and wasn't sure. Hearing it called a "chicken wing" helped me figure it out. I think it was also called an Overhand Back hand and an Overhand wrist flip(?)
I can throw those but not nearly as far or powerfully as a backhand and I can't get them to hang while the defense runs under it, but maybe I could with practice.
I also never saw one used in ten years of Ultimate (1987-1996). Do you really think teams playing well enough to compete at UPA nationals would use it if they gave it a try? (I'm not syaing they wouldn't -- just that they don't)

one of the things that has made golf tricky for me is what you say about speed verses power. I never went for maximum speed in Ultimate because the throw would not be receiver friendly (too fast to catch) and on a pull it would get to the opposing offense too fast (before the defense could camp out under it). Also locking my wrist is something so foreign to me that I still don't drive that way. But I plan to hit an open field and practice.

As for hammers (aka: tomahawks) -- they are not what Morgan is describing but they are an important option in Ultimate for throwing over the top of a defense and getting the disc to drop quickly. If a receiver sees it coming but the defender does not -- the difficult in reading them makes them a good weapon at times. They aren't good for pulls because they drop too fast.

[morgan]

If you played ultimate around here, you'd see somebody kick off with an overhand. Me! And I can still reach the end zone with it.

(Now if only I could play for more than 3 minutes without getting out of breath...)

can you get a lot of hang time with it?

[morgan]

More hang time than the Gardens of Babylon.

wow! Have you successfully converted staunch backhand believers like myself in the gospel of the overhand wrist flip? i like what i am hearing, for you it sounds like the right throw.

if i needed to break down a wall, and i could only use a traditional backhand motion, a forehand motion, a hammer motion, or an overhand wrist flip motion -- for me the backhand motion would be the strongest and most effective. But now I wonder if that is because I have built those muscles more than the others through a lot more repetition? Somehow it feels like the motion our arms are best designed to do powerfully is the backhand. Would you use an OWF movement to break down a wall if disc release motions were your only options?

[davei]

Justin, by wrist down I mean if you are shaking hands, you tilt your hand down as far as it will comfortably go. You will still be able to move it left to right. The joint between the base of your thumb and your wrist should be up. The crease of your hand should point down slightly from the line of your forearm such that when you grip your disc, and extend your arm, the disc will tilt down away from you. Only allow the disc to wag left to right. Do not tilt your wrist up during the throw and do not rotate your hand clockwise or counter clock. The base of your thumb should remain up through the throw.

[morgan]

Rob, if I had to break down a brick wall with a disc, I would use a barbell weight. Maybe 10 pounds or even 20 pounds, and I'd throw it like a discus thrower does. Obviously, you can't throw a 20 pound barbell weight with a backhand as hard as you can with a discus throw, which is basically an overhand. The muscles are stronger that way. But for golf discs you get more arm speed (and disc speed) with a backhand because there is more extension.

Morgan, when you put it that way i realize that when i throw an OWF i do it mostly with my wrist and don't use my whole body like i would if throwing a 20 pound barbell. For me it is just sort of a novelty throw rather than something i've learned to do well. Thanks for clarifying. Have you used the OWF for guts?

[morgan]

no