Suspensions For Unsportsmanlike Actions On The Course?

The most fun wins???? Not here/msgboard/images/clipart/sad.gif Just wondering if other players out there are truely disturbed by the actions of others on the course?
Here are some examples of what I have seen in my short 3 years of play:
1) excessive foul language
2) players picking fights
3) players throwing bags
4) players kicking their equipment

What really burns me up is that I only see these actions on the PDGA level. I have yet to see any of this on the local level? This being said, where are these people taking our sport? I think it is really sad that the touring pros are the worst offenders. On a whole the touring pros are some of the nicest people I have met, but a few bad apples... I could go on and on, but I would like to know how others feel about these "angry golfers".

[spamtown discgolfer]

I've seen it happen everywhere. Rec rounds, leagues and tournaments. It's embarassing for everybody when it becomes excessive.

Disc Golf, as it evolves, replicates life. The beginning, middle, and end. The last stat I read stated that there are over 500,000 people spinning plastic around the world. It is inevitable that we will see "tantrums" in our groups, unfortunately probably more so than not. At this point, be an example, distractions happen all of the time and if you watch the leaders "FOCUS" and make their shot, blocking out everything else, you will find the pleasures that this sport offers. Seek the players that keep their composure and encouragement. I love being in a group with a "crybaby". I used to hate it, but I've found that the only personality I can control is my own, and when the "crybaby" acts up, I mock them hard, an exact imitation. That'll reduce their outbursts soon. And it makes the others in the group laugh and suddenly your back to having to make another shot, better be a good one!

Why is this always brought up when the drug problem is so much worse. It is much better for someone to scream and throw things than to light up a bowl. As soon as the pdga COMPLETELY fixes the drug problem we will grow to X games status within three years.

X games are on ESPN.

[LouMoreno]

Snowboarding is an Olympic event even though some think it's a stoner sport. Medalists have tested positive and it's still in the Olympics. I don't think that's the reason disc golf isn't a part of the X games.

[klemrock]

These topics have been addressed many times on this board in various threads, and instances of bad behavior and rule violations keep being revealed.
The PDGA can't fix anything completely. The BOD and Rules Committee have been working hard to give members the tools to remedy various situations, but, the members and players must do the local legwork. Summary of things I have learned from this board, other golfers, and life lessons:
1. Don't contribute to the problem(s).
2. Don't ignore the problem(s).
3. Step up and say something; help enforce the rules - call people out for their bahavior.
4. Always be honest, patient, and thorough in dealing with an issue or person.
5. Be a good example by not littering, drinking, smoking, swearing, etc.
6. Get women and kids involved more in local events and leagues. One vocal mother could inflict more shame on an infringing player than an angry TD ever could.
7. Be realistic. The problem won't go away completely. All you can do is make a difference one day at at time.
8. Pat yourself on the back. Get up and do it again tomorrow.

Hey Lou,

Disc Golf is not a part of the X-Games because it is not an extreme or adventure sport. Guts would have a better chance of being embraced by the X-Games than Disc Golf.

Marc

[LouMoreno]

I read Jay's comment too quickly, not part of the X games but "X game status." My comment is still valid though. Disc golf just doesn't attract the same size audience that the X games do. It has nothing to do with casual players smoking a bowl. People still showed up to see the Portland Trailblazers after two of their stars were caught with pot.

Regarding foul language, throwing things, course tantrums, and so on: this is all commonplace in ball golf as well, and ball golf is doing just fine!

I have seen PGA pros curse on camera, throw a club down, etc. And on public courses? All the time. Golf, in its many forms, is a frustrating game. Some people are quiet, others will burst out occasionally. Aside from the "picking fights" comment -- which I have not witnessed -- I don't think it's anything to worry about.

As others have said, I think the drug problem is a bigger issue.

[gang4010]

Shane - it's that attitude that makes it a problem. Like so many other rules that are ignored - not drawing a line when it comes to behavior, makes the behavior acceptable. I had the unfortunate experience of having to write a letter to a sponsor this year. It really bothered me a lot - first that I was treated the way I was by a sponsored player - and second that I was the one who had to do something about it (there were previous patterns of behavior). Well what I did was simple - I chose not to serve the offending player anymore - and told the player (through their sponsor) they were not welcome to come back.

Since then I've come to the conclusion that I have no real power to change how people act. Nor do I have that desire. So I try not to dwell on other peoples bad behavior and habits. But that does not mean I have to tolerate certain kinds of actions either, so I don't! If ANY player treats a TD, a spectator, or another player poorly, just make it clear to them that they are no longer welcome. The first rule in the book after all - is the rule of courtesy.

Having done this myself, I can not say it made me feel good, didn't make me proud, or triumphant, or anything that could be construed as satisfied. But I take solace in knowing that the people I choose to serve with my promotional efforts - actually have some appreciation for them. Having run events for over 15 years now - I am not of the opinion that I OWE ANYBODY ANYTHING when I help run an event - other than my best effort. It is unfortunate that there are a select few travellers out there who feel as if TD's (or the DG community in general) owe them something. Because it seems that this is when the attitudes come out - when they feel they aren't "getting" what they deserve - whether it's $$, or respect, or whatever.

[klemrock]

Well said Craig.

[schick]

Craig, you suk! /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif Very well said man... See you at Wap Wap

[neonnoodle]

I'm getting all choked up. He always makes these tear jerker speeches...

I believe the TD also wrote a letter to the sponsors. Was there a similar letter sent to the PDGA Competition Director?

[gang4010]

Are you sure that's a tear being jerked NK? /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif Yes the TD wrote a letter - about another sponsored player. That one may have gone to the PDGA - I don't know. Mine did not. I chose to deal with the behavior personally. The sanction is mine - I choose not to serve the player, which is my prerogative. As I stated above - I have no power to alter peoples behavior, or desire, or right for that matter. Doesn't mean I have to tolerate that which I abhor. Like you always say NK, WE are the PDGA - sometimes the most effective action is taken on a personal level. In my case - I am confident that 1) action was taken, and 2) I won't have to deal with it again. Whether or not the player alters their behavior in the future is now between them and their sponsor.

[neonnoodle]

I don't know about the specifics, but what I do know is that some of the touring players made such a bad impression in the TDs mind that she and the club are likely going to reduce what has been the strongest event in our region over the last 12 years to a C-Tier. From NT to C!

I believe that it is in the interest of not only the PDGA to get this under control, but in the interest of the touring players to take it upon themselves to get this behavioral thing under wraps or face the prospect of running out of major events to play in, or ones where they are not welcome.

Yes, we certainly are the PDGA, in this case we really need to act in a nationwide coordinated fashion to nip this in the bud though.

What I can commit to is that I will volunteer as an non-playing official for the remaining MADC A Series PDGA Super Tour events (3). If I see any of this sort of behavior, I will warn and stroke the offending players in accordance with our rules of play. Particularly the overt rudeness part. If it is extreme I will do my best to get the TD to disqualify them from the event. I will also send full accounts of any such incidents to the PDGA.

If players that are used to other players, officials, TDs and events accepting such behavior view this as a threat, fine. Behave yourself and there will be no issue.

I am uninhibited in calling the rules. Believe that.

Who is with me?

[gang4010]

You're right - you don't know the specifics!!/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

You are partially correct in that the current Soiree organizers will not be seeking NT or A Tier status next year. And you are also partially correct in assuming that the behavior of some of the travelling players have influenced that decision.

I have always believed in the principle of "lead by example". In my case - I chose to address the people who I thought could be most influential on the player in question (the sponsor). I did not feel that the PDGA could or would do anything that would satisfy me - so I took it upon myself to impose sanction. Was I right? Doesn't matter!! The clear message was sent that bad behavior will not reap the rewards that we offer at our events. If other TD's acted similarly - one of two things would happen; 1) behavior would inevitably change, or 2) the bad attitudes would run out of places to play! Either is an acceptable solution IMO.

I'm sure the threat of big brother NK watching over us while we play would be an equally effective deterrent.(or not?)

craig: I guess I was speaking from experience on a more local and small-event level; while I have seen minor tantrums and all that, I've never experienced the kind of disregard for TDs and other competitors that you describe. However, having met and played with a few tour players, I can definitely see it happening. While the majority of those I know are great people and wonderful ambassadors for the sport, there are a few who carry the "king of the world" attitude too far.

I guess I am firmly rooted in the camp of people who feels that the PDGA needs to make the sport as "classy" as possible in order to attract more sponsors and possible media attention. Sadly, that usually means more rules (including a more detailed code of conduct) which usually means more fighting, but in the long run, that's where I see (or hope to see) the sport heading.

[neonnoodle]

I'm with you Craig, however a copy of that letter to the PDGA would at least give them a point of reference just in case they ever did take action due to a continued trend in detrimental behavior. It is never too late to send it in. It may not do any good, but it won't do any harm either.

I will rule the same for non-touring players, really my promise to watch folks at those events for adherence to the rules was not something I just then decided on, I've always done it. If they choose to take it as a personal challenge, or that I'll be specifically targetting them, oh well... I will of course hope for the best and that nothing comes up. But make no mistake, if it does, I'll be there.

Another point, Craig. What if the offending player shows up and says, "Hey, you can't keep me out of this tournament, I'm a PDGA member in good standing and this is a PDGA tourney, right? Show me where in the rules you can do this."

Maybe you should make your tourney an S-tier, meaning no S-holes allowed /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

I understand that we must start turning people in for drug usage on the course but this presents a lot of problems. I have been in these situations before where I warned the person that lighting up is against the rules. This is followed by, "Well, are you going to stroke me"? In that situation I said yes and almost got into a fight as a result. I was threatened with bodily harm and even death for pointing out that he was breaking the rules. This incident occured at a supertour, not a small B of C tier. At the smaller events it is not even worth mentioning because the TD is most likely going to be friends with the guy and I end up being a narc. Even if the TD does do something then word gets around that I turned someone in for smoking weed and I am hated by a great majority of the players in the area. There is no way to win on the individual level. This why I think that the PDGA needs to focus all of its time into solving this problem before it does anything else. The player ratings and course ratings are nice but it doesn't matter in the long run. Sure people in other games are drug users, I don't doubt that. The difference is that this game is totally associated with it. I have been in conversations with people who don't play disc golf but know about it and on several occasions they have said,"You must be a pot head". If people who don't play say this then how can anyone ever think that this game will get much bigger than it is now? I have seen dramatic growth in the game since I first started playing in 1999, but I think that the game will top out soon if this problem is not taken care of to the point where we are NOT ASSOCIATED WITH IT ANYMORE. This will take time and drastic measures but it can be done. I love the game, but I hate this side of it so much that I haven't played in months. It drags me down to the point where it is not fun anymore. Some rules are enforced, others are not and it just shouldn't be this way!

yeah! mentos!!!!

[gang4010]

Kurt, point taken - but I'm not worried. The message was clear - and we are altering our sanctioning to reduce the desire to return. The player in question doesn't pay their own entry fees so.....

As regards what to do if this happened on a larger scale? Good question - and perhaps it would be a problem. But in the end - we are of the mindset that we would rather relinquish all PDGA sanctioning than work our butz off for a bunch of DKheads. I figure if the folks who really value our event learn that a select golfer or two are ruining the entire event for them - that there would be sufficient deterrent/peer pressure for them to stay away. We'll hope it doesn't go that far.

It truly is a shame that the actions of one or two jerks can have such repercussions that spread like ripples on a pond. Sorry to hear that the Soiree may be changing to a C-tier but am quite happy, on the other hand, that folks are willing to take decisive & significant actions in response. Kudos to you, Craig.

[neonnoodle]

In truth, and I know Craig won't like this, I'd rather see the player be banned from the event and event continued on as before. I happen to know that there are other considerations at work in this specific situation and that it is not completely due to this mfer.

The only way to really address this is to keep giving the PDGA (in the form of the BOD, Discipline Committee, and Competition Director) information, thereby affording this player or players enough rope to hang themselves. Allowing them to effect the form and quality of our events is not the best option.

Let's dictate to them OUR terms, not let them dictate their terms to all the rest of the folks that love and enjoy our events. Am I way off base here?

[rhett]

What's wrong with DQing a player when they get ignorant? I can tell you this for certain: if I have to give a courtesy warning and strokes to anyone at the SoCal Championships supertour or any other SoCal event, and they proceed to get ignorant and yelly and abusive in response, I will DQ them on the spot. Game over.

If it was one of the PDGA's annointed ones and somehow no suspension came from on up, I would certainly consider banning them from future events until I was satisfied with a public apology. (And an apology would suffice as we all get stupid sometimes.)

<FONT SIZE=" 2">BUT.....</FONT>if the initial outburst wasn't worthy of a DQ at the time it happened, or the TD didn't have the balls to do it, then a suspension of ban is not warranted. That's right: you can't, IMNSHO, fail to make the call and then come back later and cry about it. I don't want to sound too harsh here because we have all failed to make the call in some situation and felt bad about it. Hopefully it eats at you enough that you resolve to make the call next time. And you do. But until you actually make the call on someone, you can't expect the PDGA to suspend or back a ban.

I have warned a Hall of Famer for their unsportsmanlike conduct during an event. He immediately agreed that he was being a Richard Head and stopped his tantrum.

I have also been threatened with physical harm by one of our illustrious touring Pros. I am not scared of getting my tail kicked. But, I can guarantee that I will and have written to the PDGA and a players sponsor.

As I have said before "If you aren't having fun touring, maybe you need to go do something else. Don't take your failure to perform out on me and everyone else around you."

I would like to see how long the tantrum throwers would last in a real job.

I am certainly hating it that the Soiree will no longer be an NT or SuperTour event. I had a blast staying at Craiger's pad.

Jay Yelas,

Here in Raleigh, every rule is enforced. No matter what the rule is.

Kirk

[neonnoodle]

I agree with Rhett. You can't not call something and then complain about it later or expect the PDGA to do something you yourself didn't even do.

To be a smart arse, Kirk do you call a courtesy violation when someone when asked if they saw a violation or a thrown disc says that they weren't watching? IMO someone who does this likely enforces all of the rules.

I have never seen this done nor done it myself, though now that I am aware of it I'll be letting folks know they can't just vanish into their own little worlds during rounds, that they need to pay attention to what is going on in their group.

[gang4010]

NK Said: Let's dictate to them OUR terms, not let them dictate their terms to all the rest of the folks that love and enjoy our events.

That's what was done. Terms were issued - end of story. Organizers would rather return to catering to a regional player base - hence no NT or ATier. We still expect a full field - and a healthy number of top players from regions 1&amp;3 - the event will not suffer - other than not offering triple points - could be the biggest purse offered at a B tier event /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif Guess we'll see.

Rhett - I did not feel making a call as a player in the same division was appropriate during the event. (For clarification, there was no loud outburst-just extreme and overt rude behavior). There was a history of this type of behavior that I feel I shouldn't ever have to deal with (especially as asst. TD AND sponsor), so I dealt directly with the player through their sponsor.

I have not sought to try and sanction the player through the PDGA - as I am uninterested in the he said she said, drag the sh__it through the mud exercise that I was subjected to previously - that resulted in no sanction, and lots of bad feelings. I harbor no ill will towards the player in question - and neither expect or anticipate a change in their behavior towards me personally (apologies mean nothing if not reflected by future behavior). That being said - I stand by my personal sanction - and will not allow the player at any event where I am TD or asst TD. End of story. Sorry if you disagree, sorry it had to be done - but not sorry for having made the decision.

Jay Yelas,
By any chance are you a pro bass fisherman?
just wondering!

I also have had the experience of being I a round with a certain person who was ready to throw blows.These guys were stomping thru the mud swearing back and forth then they dropped their bags and was nose to nose.Ive been thru and seen this type of shiznit alot.Its bad when it happens on the course, take it somewhere else.I did warn both players... Nothing Happend

Craig Im still there

[rhett]

Unfotunately the non-call culture of disc golf enables the a-holes to keep ruining the tournaments and rounds of other unsuspecting PDGA members.

[mdgnome]

Well being considerably new to the sport and unfortunatlly having heard few good things about the person at hand its sad to hear the Soriee will be down-graded!!!I enjoyed being a small sponsor and spectator of some of the great names and locals alike!On the other hand i welcome the thought of putting the shoe on the other foot and joining the field and competing next yr at my favorite and home course,its just to bad how it has come to be!

[neonnoodle]

In principle I have to agree with Rhett. If you don't call it, then your position to complain about it is weakened. The PDGA, like it or not has rules, they have mechanisms (fine tuned or not) that if you don't use, or you used once and didn't get satisfaction and gave up, won't have any chance of ever functioning if we just throw up our hands and figure it ain't worth the trouble. All you can do is all you can do.

In practice, I fully understand where Craig is coming from. I won’t go into the specifics, but I was involved in an incident where I followed the rules to the nth degree, flatly and clearly (it was seconded) caught a player not holing out, called them on it, they became extremely rude and belligerent, I called them on that, then a stroke for courtesy, and so on. We spoke with the TD, the TD reluctantly ended up giving a single stroke for what I thought was the lesser of the infractions (not holing out properly). Feeling the TD had not followed the rules, I wrote a letter to the PDGA and then even with repeated attempts to find out what happened, have to this day (it was over two years ago) not heard a peep out of them about it or what they did. I like to hope that something was done, like a formal warning of suspension to the player or something. Since it has been just that little bit tougher to step up and follow the rules of play when you’re unsure TDs and the PDGA won’t get your back.

Still, you can’t control what they do; you can only control what you do. It’s a matter of conscience; to do the right thing or to provide yourself with plausible excuses to not. I’m not say that what Craig did or his position concerning this is not the right thing, that’s between him and his conscience and is something that only he is in a position to judge as wrong or right. I can say that if I witnessed any player being overtly rude to me or another player then that player would know about it. I’d call it, inform the TD and even let the PDGA in on it if it was severe enough. I mean think about it, who are we protecting by not following the rules and informing the TDs and PDGA? The only people harmed are the people that follow the rules and are decent to one another. These morons figure it's a license to continue their behavior and disregard for the rules. There is no room for such childishness in a sport as inherently fun and filled with great people as disc golf. I would truly pity any fool f ed in the head enough to want to get into a fight on a disc golf course.

One other thing, which has come up from time to time; if you are worried about getting a bad rap as a “narc” or a “hard-arss” consider the type of people that would seriously consider you that based on you following and calling the rules. Do you really care what they think? Isn’t the type of people you would want to be associated with the ones that understand the need to follow the rules of fair play, and who would support you in doing so?

I agree with you Nick. As far as your last paragraph about getting a bad rap, I just don't see how it can be avoided? I hate make generalizations but most of the disc golfers in my area either smoke weed or don't have a problem with it. Maybe it is different in other areas; or at least I hope it is. This is why I have been having a hard time keeping interest in the game. These aren't people that I want to be associated with! So I must choose between my love of the game and dealing with the people, or just give the game up. For the last several months I have opted for option B. Now I am starting to really feel the urge to play again but the same problems are still there. In the incident that I mentioned in my last post (where I was threatened) I was playing with one of the few players in my area who agree with me on this issue. The sad part is that he didn't back me up. He later said that he should have but when it mattered he didn't do anything. I was a little hurt by that but not really that surprised. I don't see anyway to win on my own, and don't see anybody around here that would be willing back me up. So I guess I will just base my play on my ability to tolerate it on a given day.

Jay wrote;"I hate make generalizations but most of the disc golfers in my area either smoke weed or don't have a problem with it. Maybe it is different in other areas; or at least I hope it is."

It's not. Perhaps it's your attitudes that need changing. Intolerence is unnattractive, and weed never killed anybody. Long live what's left of the counter-culture!

[neonnoodle]

Jay, I will back you up. I can't speak for others, nor can I compel them to do the right things or have common courtesy and consideration for one another, but I can for myself as you can for yourself.

Don't let others dictate what you think is right to do. Avoid fights with primates, it isn’t worth it, but if someone is willing to get in your face and start throwing hands, then any TD who does not disqualify that person should absolutely be suspended from the PDGA (not to mention loose all respect from his peers).

I know backing bullies is becoming more popular in America these days, but popularity doesn’t make it right.

[gnduke]

It is different in some areas. At least in the overt display. Or maybe my reputation is preceding me very well. I have played in 16 organized events this year, and have not witnessed any counter-culture activity on the course this year.

I am not saying that it is not happening, but that I have not had to deal with being aware that it was going on and having to call somebody on it.

Where I play most often (Madison, WI) I have watched the weed consumption on the area's three courses steadily decline over the past 3-4 years. That's not to say that it's not there any more, it's just not as obvious. As more people take up the sport, and more people flood the courses on any given day, I think a lot of the users don't feel quite as comfortable lighting up when there are a lot of others wandering around.

I can say happily that in the tournaments I have played in the area, both PDGA sanctioned and non, the tournament directors have specifically announced at both the morning and afternoon players' meetings that weed is not allowed, and will result in either stroking or disqualification. In the groups I've played in, I've never seen anybody smoke anything other than a cigarette. However, I've also never heard of anybody getting stroked or DQ'd for weed smoking, so either people are actually listening to the TD (hopefully, but doubtful) or as others have mentioned, they are just disregarding the rules.

I guess it is difficult for me to understand why anybody would *want* the PDGA to allow the smoking of pot, or drinking of alcohol, or even smoking of cigarettes during an event. If the sport is ever to gain legitimacy on the national level, these kind of behaviors need to go -- and I think that some of the belligerent attitudes and "you're a narc" mentalities might go along with it.

[rhett]

I am caring less and less about the perceived "legitimacy" of PDGA events, but I do know that I don't like being around the pot smoking and that I go to PDGA events to compete and have a good time. What people do at home doesn't bother me, but I'm not into the smoking scene and I don't like being stuck in the middle of it at disc golf tournaments with no way to know what any particilar tournament will be like unless I have played it several times before.

[neonnoodle]

I only saw consumption once and I didn't say anything. That won't happen again.

That doesn't bother me as much as the reports I've heard about overt rudeness. There is no room for it in disc golf. If you have the need to be d head to other players during rounds you need to find another sport.

jay wrote: "these aren't people that i want to be associated with!" here, here! i don't want to associate with people with freckles, they make me sick. nor with people that use prozac. nor with people that use prell shampoo. tolerance [*****]. it doesn't matter who someone is as a person, if they use viagra, i don't want to be around them. and drinkers smell. and if they eat sugar and drink coffee i kick them in the shins. and just like in high school, if they don't wear polo, i don't talk to them. jay, you and i would get along just fine! hi shannon, how's it going? long time. painter was out at doubles tuesday. nice to see the old-timers.

[neonnoodle]

Now Kevin, Are you being intolerant of intolerant people?

I don't want to be associated with intolerant people!


LOL

[chains11864]

This is a thread about unsportsman like actions.....

1. People with bad attitudes on the course are difficult to play with...if needed, give them a warning and then a stroke penalty per each time this occurs...SIMPLE...if you do not like 1 on 1 confrontation enough to make the call for yourself, then ask another player in your group, (who also agrees this player needs to be called), to support you...IF enough people begin to call players who are breaking the rules, then these players will begin to get the message, and stop their actions...If you do not make others aware of the rules, or call them on infractions, while playing disc golf, then you are as much of the problem as the player breaking the rules...

2. NEVER, NEVER, NEVER have I heard, or read, where a disc golfer wants "illegal drug users" to stop using for LIFE, or on their OWN time!
ONLY, ONLY and ONLY to not use DURING THE PLAY OF A TOURNAMENT, if it is a problem to not use for 1 round of disc golf, the person has a lot bigger problems than getting DQed from a PDGA tournmaent. This is not intolerance, NO, it is trying to better a sport people love to play, and watch, that is IT....not a revolution by conservative people to ban these people from the sport.....many "illegal drug users", that are friends of mine, even wonder why their friends in the "counter culture" can not get it through their heads, DO NOT USE DURING TOURNAMENT PLAY... no one is asking for that much, just some common courtesy, and the chance to play disc golf WITH OUT illegal drugs being used...

I WILL NOT debate, WHAT is a drug, and what is not...(legal or not)...this is the crutch users always go to when they stand corrected...

So a GUIDE FOR THE ILLEGAL DRUG USER....

1. Smoke, sniff, drink or lick whatever you desire, before a round of disc golf @ a tournament...ENJOY...no one is against this!!!

2. Go have fun, and play in the disc golf tournament, and YES, DO NOT use for this HUGE amount of time...we know this is hard for an adult to do, but please make that GREAT sacrifice for us, please.....

3. AFTER, you are done with your round of disc golf @ the tournmanet, USE, USE and USE...no one cares...STARTING TO SEE THE LIGHT....

EXAMPLE...

1971...Joe the drug user is born...
1971-1989...regular life...
1989...Joe discovers disc golf...
1990...Joe joins the PDGA...
October 5th 1991...Joe uses drug of choice (as much as he wants)...THEN plays in disc golf tournament (with out using)...then Joe uses again after tournament...
October 6th 1991...regular life...
Etc........

So the disc golf community is asking you to give up maybe 2-4 hours of your life, so that it can better itself...HOW OUTRAGEOUS!!!!...but I think Joe is going to live another day, EVEN though he had to go a ENTIRE 2-4 hours with out his drug of choice....

IT is NOT a counter culture, it IS the culture we live in...everyone knows, and accepts this, so do not think that somehow the world is against you...people just want disc golf to go forward, not backwards...SIMPLE...

Illegal drug use and extreme bad attitudes are BAD for disc golf, and the people who are trying to enjoy the sport....PERIOD...so try not to do these 2 things DURING PLAY at a PDGA disc golf tournament...IF a person can not possibly refain from these 2 things for 2-4 hours, people will start to ask you NOT to be there again...and what is nice, is that the PDGA finally gave disc golfers a way to rid themselves of these people, and their actons, DURING A PDGA TOURNAMENT...by playing by, and enforcing, the rules...WHAT A NEW CONCEPT!

Tired of something so childish...Brandon

well..there you have it. nick, darn i forgot the intolerants...i'll get 'em next time.

I agree with you on everything Brandon other than the part about drug usage is ok at the tournament as long as it is not used during the round. We play most of our events in public parks where we are very visible to the general public. The tournament headquarters is going to attract the most people and it is going to be where disc golf is the most exposed. This is the problem with the current rules in my opinion. A player can stand there talking to the TD smoking a bowl and the TD CAN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT if he wanted to. I have seen situations like this before. I am not exaggerating! The only option would be calling the police and it wouldn't take long for a annual disc golf tournaments to be taken away because the police has to be called every year! I play a large event in a neighboring state every year on private land that is owned by an older gentleman. This year I witnessed someone actually selling bowls in the parking area as well as a VERY well know top pro using while "hiding" behind a car. That event would be shut down forever if the land owner knew about this. So what I am supposed to do, call the police? I think that most disc golfers don't realize how serious this all is and I know that the PDGA doesn't. Hypothetically anyone could get any course taken away. All someone would have to do is just call the police everyday to the course reporting illegal drug usage and alcohol in the PUBLIC'S park. A few letters to the county and the park is gone for good. There would never be another disc golf course in that county again. I am not saying that I am going to do this, only that it is possible for anyone to do it. How many people would it take doing this to basically destroy disc golf and the PDGA? Not very many! This is the reality of the situation, and if you really think about it disc golf is just holding on by a thread.

[chains11864]

Jay...I follow what you are saying, and agree with you...the only reason I kept my arguments in the disc golf world is to bring home the point of how short of a time it is to not use, and the fact it would be a place to start...drug use is bad anywhere around disc golf, BUT, for now, the only place the PDGA, and its' membership, have any room to enforce rules is on the course, DURING play...so disc golfers should focus on that...I PERSONALLY am going to start each round I play from now on, (PDGA events), by telling the group that I will DQ anyone who uses illegal drugs during play (from top pro to first timer')...the reason, is that if I state that, then I will be the "bad guy", and take away any chance of an uncomfortable situation for OUR group...also many people do not like confrontation, I do not mind it at all...some people will think ill of me, but I believe the majority of people will appreciate it.......furthermore, I do not think drug use is OK @ tournaments, but unless it is on private property, there is nothing we can do, as you stated earlier...if the users had any respect for the people around them, or the sport they have CHOSEN to participate in, they would not use anywhere near the tournament, but like I said, lets' at LEAST start by NOT using during play..."baby steps" for the childish among us...

Kevin...if you are suggesting I am an "intolerant"?...I suggest you read the entire post, and not just look at the pictures...


AND...this idea of "counter-culture" is ridiculous, idiotic and very self-serving...NO ONE CARES if another person gets high, smokes crack or is a prostitute, just do not bring it ON THE COURSE during a PDGA event...REMEMBER that the PDGA did not force anyone to join, or to play in their sanctioned tournaments, it is by CHOICE that people participate...SO, if certain people do not like the organization, or its' rules, then they should discontinue their association with it, NO ONE is forcing anyone stay...

Remember kids, stay in school and smoke crack,

Chains

> I PERSONALLY am going to start each round I play from now on, (PDGA events), by telling the group that I will DQ anyone who uses illegal drugs during play

Brandon, I think you mean "report" anyone rather than "DQ" anyone since DQs can only be handed out by the TD.

BTW, check the Pro Worlds thread: an actual 804.05.A(1) DQ??? Of a top 5 NT player???? At a World Championship???? Are you kidding me??? Kudos to the TDs for having the ... "backbone" /clipart/wink.gif ... to toss him. Maybe that'll stiffen other TDs backbones to start handing out DQs.

as a regular joe i resent to having my name thrown in with casual drug users.

i am a professional drug user and wish to be represented as such.

thank you for your time.

Laboski wrote;"hi shannon, how's it going? long time. painter was out at doubles tuesday. nice to see the old-timers. "
Spongebob voice--"Hi Kevin..."
We old-timers are suffering from marijuwhatney induced senility and can hardly remember where the golf course is anymore. I had a point when I started this post. Old age is tiring...

[Dick]

actually jay, i think in a pdga event drug use is against the rules during the event. that probably can be construed as from when registration opens until after the awards. any use during that time could be subject to a call, so the td is NOT powerless. more likely unwilling to make the call on someone who he knows. i would make the call and let the player appeal to the pdga if he likes. good luck!
as far as i'm concerned, screw the counter culture. i'm with brandon, and i won't put up with it during an event. i will be a rules dck if i have to. if you can't wait to get high, then you have a problem and should seek help. weed has killed plenty of people, if you don't think so ask the parent of a kid who got high and was killed in a car accident. that was about the most thoughtless statement i've heard in awhile shannon.

Thank you Rich! Weed has killed many, many people from the innocent people who get in the way of a drug deal, to police officers, to people who die of cancer that is usually blamed on cigarettes. I need to just start calling it no matter what and just forget what people think of me. I am already not the most popular person around so it really doesn't matter anyway. I still can't do anything about league play but I can in tournaments, and I will from now on. I am glad to see that I do have some people on my side.

[MTL21676]

whether u do drugs or not and no matter what your opinion is on them, anyone should be DQed for doing drugs during a tournament. I personally do not use drugs, but do not hold judgements on those who do....I guess my opinion is I dont care what you do w/ ur life.....but when ur lifestyle and my colide is when I believe there is a problem. If you wanna get stoned b4 a round, go for it....but at least follow the rules that govern the game we all love

[chains11864]

Rich... sounds like a lot of people are starting to feel the NEED to DO something...I think this is just what disc golf needs, people who are willing to step up to the plate and show some "back-bone"! Kudos to all!

Felix...my mistake, I am a TD also, and you are correct, all I could do is report them to the directing TD...but at least we all have that option now...

Average Joe...funny...I respect anyone who can balance drug use, and daily life...I tried for 10 years, but now do no drugs at all...good luck with your professional drug use career, just keep it off the course during a PDGA event...

Also...at the 1 event I TD in Virginia...I make it clear that illegal drug use will not be tolerated AT ALL...just doing my part to back up what I say, and to back up the PDGA...

Drug FREE Disc Golf ANYONE???

Peace...Brandon

[magilla]

"could be the biggest purse offered at a B tier event Guess we'll see."

Didnt seem to hurt the Masters Cup this Year...$20,000 B Tier

"I don't know about the specifics, but what I do know is that some of the touring players made such a bad impression in the TDs mind that she and the club are likely going to reduce what has been the strongest event in our region over the last 12 years to a C-Tier. From NT to C!"

Similar scene as what happened to Tahoe after last year....TD experienced such negativity from "some" TOP touring pros and was crushed to the point of not wanting to TD ever again. His club continued the tradition but as a B tier not an A Tier.../msgboard/images/clipart/sad.gif

It does seem that some of our Touring Pros think that they are "Gods gift to the Sport".

Its a shame to see but as we grow,and as more people try to make a living at this, its to be expected. Not accepted, but expected...../msgboard/images/clipart/sad.gif

Its a shame to hear about Rico/Russell incident..

Not knowing the details....I'd bet that Steve had a DARN GOOD reason to act up at Ron in a manner to get him DQ'd.
Couldn't imagine what that would be since Ron is such a nice guy....NOT!/msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

Still there is no reason for violence or misconduct in the game of Disc Golf. I am sure that Steve's DQ was warranted /msgboard/images/clipart/sad.gif

[lowe]

Would someone who can accurately report the facts please explain why Steve Rico was DQed?

[tanner]

If one has a prescription for a drug, that would make it legal, correct? And could be used whenever the individual needs there medicine.

[magilla]

If the perscription that you mention is Pot then maybe you need to find the facts.

In the state of California, yes you can get a medicinal perscription, BUT it also states that you must be in the privacy of your own home, out of public veiw and not in public places.

That theory has been tried and failed.......

As state coordinator, I felt I should look into the issue in case it came up /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

[gang4010]

OK so who knows what happened between Steve and Ron? By the scores - they shouldn't have even been playing together??

[rhett]

Did that DQ cost Stevie the NT Crown and the NT Tour Bonus? Or was he too far back in the pack at the time of DQ?

[underparmike]

the reason they were playing together was because everyone's rounds from monday were resumed on friday at the "approximate lie" where they stopped on monday. so you had people playing together on friday who were up to 40 strokes difference in score!

as for what happenned with ron&amp;steve apparently steve had already been given some sort of warning about bad conduct before his DQ for allegedly threatening ron. there was plenty of hostility going around the A pool all week, a large part due to having to think about finishing part of a round 4 days after it started. i saw bamba rico and feldberg almost fight before the second round at NAU, and the complaints i heard about the handling of the monday snowbowl fiasco were numerous and often justified. add in high altitude sickness and it's not surprising to hear about all the turmoil.

i don't want to criticize the PDGA &amp; TDs at the worlds anymore, except to say that yes, they did buckle to pressure from some whiny A-pool pros on monday when the snowbowl round was not resumed that day. these pros should be treated just like the rest of us. no doubt this year's pro worlds will be a huge learning experience for all of the PDGA and i look forward to discussing everything good and bad about it. and there was a HUGE amount of GREAT and TERRIFIC stuff that happenned in flagstaff, my hat is off to Dan G and staff! ARIZONA DISC GOLFERS DESERVE A HUGE AMOUNT OF THANKS FOR RUNNING THE 2003 WORLDS! don't let one bad decision ruin the memory of this truly special event. and don't let whiny sponsored players dictate to TD's ever again!

OK Steve and Ron go at it. Kevin and Cam go at it earlier this year.
Waht does this do for the Discraft camp?
Seems like alot of turmoil for anyone sponsored by them.

[dixonjowers]

Jay,
I agree with most everything you are saying.

However you have stated at least twice that you see no way of winning on the individual level in this, shall we say, "discussion".

I don't want this to sound demeaning at all, because you seem like a level-headed guy, but why do we feel the need to "win" in this situation?
Whatever happened to doing the right thing simply because it was the right thing? Consequences be damned.

Perhaps our struggle with this issue is our short-sightedness. We want to see immediate gratification for our efforts. Maybe we shouldn't expect to see the upside of one guy standing up to a group of users in the parking lot between rounds. Maybe the next generation of golfers will see the benefits of our labor when this is no longer a problem.

I don't recall any stories of Jackie Robinson having immediate positive feedback from the stand that he made. However, realizing that I am making a generalization, every black player today would credit him as one of the pioneers of their way of life.

Let's stand up for the rules because they are the rules. If we don't like 'em then let us go through the proper steps to change them.

(stepping down off of soap box)
(lights fade to black as speaker exits stage right)

dixon
peace

Rhett, if the points info on the NT website was up to date, I doubt the DQ cost Steve the NT crown since he was trailing Barry by 35 points going into Pro Worlds (B: 490, S: 455) and was 16 strokes behind after 5 rounds (B: 256, S: 272), so he would have beaten Barry by at least 3 places to win the crown.

Not sure how the NT bonus works (haven't been following it), but assuming the pot is split at the end of the year, it probably cost him some $$$ since the DQ meant Ron Russell was able to pass him for second on the points list.

[rhett]

So the points are not up-to-date yet? I assumed they were and saw that 35 points as a 6th place finish to win the race. Oh well. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Here's the next pertinient question: getting kicked out of the final for fighting seems pretty serious. Does Steve forfeit his NT Bonus payout, too? I'm not trying to pick on Steve, but how awkward would that have been if he had stayed in town and showed up at the awards ceremony and then the TD/NT people would have to hand him a check after he was DQd. Know what I mean?

All the NT Bonus winners had perfect scores of 550. I'm not sure how the complete system works, but they take your best 5 performances, and an NT win is worth 100, with the worlds win worth 150, so no, Steve didn't have much chance to win before being DQ'd.

Stevie does not forfeit his NT bonus that he earned prior to Worlds, and in fact his name was called for his NT bonus and a few other times (points top 5, and maybe putting and/or mini-golf) at the awards ceremony.

[schick]

So what does all of this mean for the remainder of the year? Is he susupended from other PDGA events or is it just the Worlds he was DQed? Is this sport really getting this out of hand, what is the deal?????

bs

[gang4010]

Sounds to me like any continuation of a NT for next year needs to include multiple non-playing officials to ensure proper behavior. Who wants to bet that Steve and Ron's altercation was like a hockey fight? The guy who got kicked out was the guy reacting to the su_cker punch (this is said figuratively not literally). These things are never one sided.

Still haven't heard what sparked the incident - guess we'll never know.

[rhett]

Like I said, I'm not trying to pick on him, just wondering how all that worked.

> I assumed they were and saw that 35 points as a 6th place finish to win the race.

Rhett, I presume the points were up-to-date, but don't know that for certain.

I don't think Steve could have won with a sixth place finish. As I understand the NT points system, only a player's top 5 finishes count toward determining his/her NT points. Steve's 455 points are based on:

2 wins (GSO, BHMO) = 200 pts
1 second (DGLO) = 90 pts
1 second place tie (MN Maj.) = 85 pts.
1 3rd (KC) = 80 pts

Based on that, Steve would have had to earn 115 points (80 to replace the KC pts 35 to make up the point deficit) to tie Barry's 490.

Practically, it appears that Steve would have had to finish 3rd (120 pts) or higher AND Barry would have needed to finish no higher than 5th (90 pts) in order for Steve to win the pts crown (but only if he won 3rd outright; in case of a TIE for 3rd, he would have earned only 112.5 pts). Barry would have earned 105 pts for a fourth place finish which would have raised his points total to 505, in which case Steve would have had to finish 2nd, 135 pts (total of 510, in order to win the points crown.

Not sure whether or not Steve forfeits his NT bonus or not. There/s nothing in the NT Handbook
that suggests he would; OTOH, the handbook does warn that players are subject to a fine for professional misconduct, so it wouldn't surprise me in the least if he ends up being fined an amount equal to his NT bonus.

[rhett]

I thought it was total points.

Someone else said that Ron Russell moved into 2nd place, and as of this morning Steve was still listed in 2nd on the website.

[ck34]

Steve was announced to win third place in the NT at the awards banquet with some polite applause. His trophy was still on the awards table at the end of the night.

-dibs-

;)

Ron did move into second by virtue of the 135 points he picked up for finishing second.

Points on the NT page haven't been updated to reflect Worlds results yet. When they are, Barry will show 550 points, which is the maximum possible score.

Thanks, Theo.

No need to apologize. With everything you've had going on this past week, it's a wonder you've had time even to think about updating the NT site, much less do it. (Hope my comments about the NT site didn't come across as being critical. If they did, I apologise.)

[exczar]

Theo,

Take a break for a few days! You deserve it, and it will prepare you for what is yet to come... /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

Felix,

There is nothing wrong with being critical per se. Constructive criticism, expressed appropriately, should always be welcome. I can't recall your NT post, but if your criticism noted possible improvements or comments on the situation that had not been stated by others, it was appropriate to post it.

[keithjohnson]

By Bill Burns on Monday, August 18, 2003 - 07:45 pm
Felix,
There is nothing wrong with being critical per se. Constructive criticism, expressed appropriately, should always be welcome.

bill sorta means if you are nicer than keith johnson when you post....otherwise critism is NOT good,because if you don't critize nicely that means it obviously doesn't have any merit...

bill go join jack and nick on the pdga sidelines and let people post what they want without sticking your thoughts into it like i am doing here /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

see how stupid it sounds,especially if you didn't EVEN READ what my pal felix said.....if you aren't going to read the posts.......don't try some half-azzed lame comment about them...


i thought that even though it was a couple of times a week or so behind......that overall the national tour site had good info and stories on it and that theo and jason did A KICK *** JOB!!!!! on the site with occasional stories from others thrown in....

even though i didn't/don't agree with the way the pdga "spent" money on the "S" word(sportsloop)....i think the computer side and real-time scoring that came about from the national tour were GREAT ideas and as a spectator it was nice to see from home what was happening at the events i used to play in....

and on topic...since stevie's trophy was there for him i guess his bonus was also there as no one answered felix's 1:29 pm post about the fine as mentioned in the nt handbook being levied..

[discette]

You know I have read alot all over this message board about the horrible behavoir of the NT players, and that certain TD's are not going to do it again next year.

I would like to speak up. I was the course director for Kaposia at the Minnesota Majestic this year. I have never met a nicer, more appreciative group of golfers in all my life. Perhaps, by the time they got to Minnesota in July they had learned to behave.

I tell you I had more players say thank-you to me than any other tournament I have ever run. They said thank-you when checking in, they said thank-you when they dropped off the scorecards after the rounds, they said thank-you on Sunday before they headed off. They all seemed very appreciative of all the volunteers.

They also behaved very well. They were all clean cut and well-mannered. I could have brought any sponsor in the world to Kaposia the day those guys were playing, and any sponsor would have been very impressed with our sport. I think these NT players really brought the public image of this sport up a notch. I think they realized that the NT wasn't a big travelling party, that it was a way to bring this sport up to the next level. Even though they weren't getting the money they thought, they still made an effort to make the NT "different" from your average tourney, or even Supertour. I think the players who were on the NT are ultimately the ones who did that, not the PDGA or Sportsloop.

So I would like to say thank-you to all the players on the NT who came to the Minnesota Majestic, I thought you all behaved like ladies and gentleman, and all your sponsors can be proud of you.

Bill, I was concerned that Theo may have construed my remark that I assumed that the points info on the NT website going onto Worlds was up-to-date but didn't know that for certain as a criticism of the timeliness with which the site was updated. I hope it wasn't construed as a criticism/complaint, because I think Theo is doing a great job updating and maintaining both the NT and the PDGA websites.

Suzette- didn't you see/hear the near fight in the parking lot at Kaposia after the second round???

Other than that 'soap opera drama' things did go smoothly.

[gang4010]

Suzette,

It's encouraging to hear that you and your staff had a good experience running an NT event - and were able to cater to the travellers without having your efforts tainted by bad behavior. I wish that our staff could say the same - I really do.

The irony in all of this is that we worked so hard for over 10 years trying to bring players from outside our region to play our event. Those efforts have brought increasing numbers of travellers for the past several years, which we found very rewarding. So it is ironic and unfortunate that the very players we sought to attract are largely responsible for us not wanting to cater to them any more.

The worst part is the loss of desire in some of our core organizers (myself included). Desire to provide a service, to be a part of an elite group of events, so many things have been lost. If there is an upside - I think we will return to providing a quality (and more affordable) event that is focused regionally. We have tremendous support in this part of the country - and I have no doubt that the Soiree will continue as a top notch tournament. We just won't be seeking as much attention in the near future.

[discette]

Greg - I know a local was upset about the park being closed and got into a shouting match with someone, but that wasn't an NT player's behavior problem. Was there something I missed? It obviously didn't happen during the round.

Craig - I think that perhaps these guys on tour must have straightened up a bit, cause it was a joy to work at this event. I never had so many different people say thank-you to me in one day in my whole life!

[gnduke]

Thank you for sharing Discette.

We never hear the good side here, only the bad.

It is good to hear that all of the news isn't bad.

[neonnoodle]

From my experience I think that we are getting a balanced picture here. Certainly there are some terrific guys and gals on tour. But when you see sulky dark behavior or outright hostility it tends to paint the whole scene with a broad brush. I do my best to focus on the best on tour, and that doesn't necessarily mean the best players on tour.

I can only hope that good players don't start thinking that in order to break into the top 20 worldwide that they have to copy certain players attitudes and mannerisms.

I would site Larry Leonard, Walter Haney, Ken Climo and Joe Mela as good examples to model your behavior on the course after.

[Moderator005]

I'm really looking forward to the PDGA C-Tier 2004 Seneca Soiree with a ~$40 entry fee.
-Jeff LaGrassa

[exczar]

<FONT SIZE=" 1"><U>DISCussion Board Internal Memo</U></FONT>


TO: Keith Johnson
DATE: 19 August 2003
SUBJECT: Apology

Dear Keith,

I apologize for peeing in your coffee.

Sincerely,

Bill Burns

[Chris Hysell]

Nick, how can I get one of your Good Guy Awards?

[rhett]

I heard a rumor that someone had a hissy fit up on the mountain at Worlds and tore up the group's scorecard, and that later a tourney official sat the group down and recreated the card so that they could continue the round later.

Can anyone confirm this act poor sportmanship?

Also, wouldn't that act be worthy of DQ? It seems that you can be all the ****** you please and be fine, and that only the threat of fighting results in DQ.

[neonnoodle]

Chris, by being one of the top 20 golfers worldwide...

Though your mental game is worthy of emulating too.

<FONT COLOR="aa00aa">Fill in something funny here.</FONT>

[keithjohnson]

thanks bill......but i don't drink coffee....must have been pepsi you meant /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Rhett, care to quote a rule that specifically says that is a DQable offense?

The stance taken re: the rumor of the destroyed card was that it should be treated just like a lost or misplaced card and that the group would have to recreate the card and turn it in within 25 minutes of the completion of the round per 804.03 E. Since the round had been suspended at the time, and not all scorecards from the non-completed groups were collected, it was a non-issue.

It is unclear whether or not a courtesy warning was issued.

[rhett]

RULE: 801 Conduct of Players Conduct of
Players-Be Respectful.

RULE: 804.05 DISQUALIFICATION &amp; SUSPENSION
A. A player may be disqualified by the director for meeting any of the necessary conditions of disqualification as set forth in the rules, or for any of the following:
(1) Unsportsmanlike conduct, such as; loud cursing, throwing things in anger (other than discs in play), or overt rudeness to anyone present.

[rhett]

So Jim, regardless of the technicalities do you really think that throwing a major hissy fit and tearing up the scorecard for the group should be ignored at the World Championships?

Ignored? No. However, DQ's based on mere rumor are pretty bad. Did other players report this action to the TD or was it all just whispering among the players? I honestly don't know as I was not the TD. I was helping out earlier in the day, and I was on the course at the time the round was halted. I was also at the lodge when Ginnelly made the announcement that the round would not continue at that time. I was able to collect some cards (all the completed ones were already turned in), but nowhere near all of them.

Also, I never heard anything about a hissy fit major or otherwise, just a <STRIKE>destroyed</STRIKE> err... lost card.

Add to that the misunderstanding of whether the round would be thrown out, or continued later, and I agree with the actions taken.

[rhett]

Okay, point taken.

Intimidation is a crappy thing to have to endure at Worlds, but if nobody on the card will step up you can guarrantee it will happen again to some more folks somewhere else trying to have a good time at a PDGA tourney. /msgboard/images/clipart/sad.gif

Agreed. Again I never heard anything about a hissy fit. My assumption (and it could very well be wrong) was that the player in question, heard or assumed that the round would be thrown out since it wasn't completed by everyone, so he nonchalantly ripped the card in half and tossed it in the trash can after it was announced that play wouldn't continue that day.

Anyone else want to present a different version? I honestly don't know as I didn't witness anything other than the normal whining.

That said, I will say this:
Fact: Randolph had already finsihed the round at -9.
Fact: Feldberg was at -9 with one to go.
The rest is what I saw/remember, and it's very likely there are different versions of this story:
The player in question did whine about some players (such as Randolph) getting to play in better weather conditions than others, and he was one of many calling for play to be cancelled that afternoon (Feldberg was one of the few asking to complete the round).
The player in question told me he was at -6 at the time play was stopped. I don't know if that is true or not, his final score was -4.

You bring up a very good point Dixon. I guess it is just frustration and the knowledge that nothing will be done and that it will hurt my image and the image of my best friend. I shouldn't worry about that, and that is cowardly on my part. Now that I have read what is being said here I have changed my views on the game completely. In the past I have seen this issue brought up on this message board and it was shot down immediatly by seemingly everyone. Now I see reason and support on this issue from bascally everyone that has posted. That tells me that either the game is changing or that long time players are just starting to speak up and make it change. I now have a lot more interest in playing, and I can see that things are getting better. You are right it really isn't about winning in the present. I just couldn't see the light at the end of the tunnel. This country wouldn't be here if wasn't for those that wanted to take a stand and do the right thing. When enough do this I think the change has got to come at some point. I believe now that it is coming fast. From now on I will take a stand at every tournament I play, and I will not back down because of what others will think. As it has been said before on this thread; the ones who get mad are the ones I don't want to be involved with anyway. Thank you everyone who is taking a stand for what is right!
P.S. Sorry for the delayed responce Dixon, I have been pretty busy.

Why did this thread go into the archives?

[discette]

I think your last post said it all.

[gang4010]

I've got a question for the BOD.

Is there a specific policy that players and TD's should be aware of as regards players on probation? Or are the conditions of a players probation dealt with on a case by case basis?

In other words - what do we need to know about suspended players, or players on probation? Is probation a "second strike" scenario, where any further incidents will warrant a suspension? Or is it more complicated than that?

[neonnoodle]

CG - This is on every thread on this board -

"The PDGA does not monitor the message board for questions directed to the PDGA office. Email your questions and comments to office@pdga.com. You may also use the feedback form found on the site."

It works, try it.

[Pizza God]

hey, if you get an answer, could you post it here or send it to me. I will not have to deal with either of those 2 guys, but would like to know the answer.