Ams...anyone out there making a profit playing disc golf?

If not...how much money are you out of pocket in your dealings with the PDGA? From membership to attending PDGA tournaments.

Do you volunteer anything towards the PDGA?

How are you doing in your efforts to convert merchandise to cash? Are you getting more than your listed winnings.

There is a rumour going around that ams are playing for profit and converting merchandise to cash. I know I have to start playing better so I can get the big prizes...but once I do...I would like some tips on how to make money at this sport as an am player.

I am out of pocket close to $5000 every year...so just wondering if anyone can help.

Randy,

In economics you made money, just in the negative catagory. I know of a couple of ams making money, but that is because they are also into disc sales and running mini's. But truely, they could make that money without being an Am. I can tell you from my days of playing Open and not winning a single dime, that at least now I rarely have to buy discs.

I would guess that last year, if I offset dics won, that I am down about $500.

[mitchjustice]

$5000 last year...$8000 this year( a good guess)...and yes I do volunteer

[ck34]

Nice try Randy but there are just as many pros of all ages whose net out-of-pocket expenses will be higher than Ams who played as many events because they earned back less in cash than the Ams did in plastic... and many have higher ratings and shot better scores on the same courses.

Frankly, we have few true Ams and true Pros in our sport based on conventional definitions. And, I agree that's not a problem. It would be nice if we had more appropriate names for what we call Pro and Am but the system works pretty well.

The problem as I see it is when so-called Ams win more net value than so called pros for shooting worse scores. It's the same complaint that Open players have with Masters sometimes winning more by shooting worse scores.

The economic engine we have in this sport has been effective but is not the same as Pro & Am in other sports. So what? It works. All we really need to do is get the reward structure in line so that you get more reward for playing better right up the divisional lines. Because there's a huge skill overlap between some portions of the Open, Master Pro and Advanced divisions, one way to better align the rewards is to host ratings events. Then, the pros and ams playing together can get appropriate cash or merch awards based on equivalent performances. And, if these awards are lower than better performances in Open, even better.

Chuck, I don't see the relevence in what someone gets opposed to someone else in a different division, at the same tournament. If there are 20 players in one division, and 5 in another...I would think the winner in the larger division might get more...no matter the division.

Fact is...in most big tournaments...the winner of Open gets much more than anyone else.

And I'm making a simple point. The non-cash players in this sport...as a whole...are putting alot of money into the tournament structure. I'm not saying everyone else is not doing so.

And...there is little complaining.

Chuck...I think it's safe to say that the merchandise payout system is probably at it's best in my region. The PDGA tournament life here is robust to say the least...and then we have the T10.

With the advent of the ratings system, we have seen a decrease in numbers in the top non-cash bracket. Therefore, the huge prizes in the Advanced division are not what they were. The next lower division has grown substantially, and it is a deeper payout.

Many of the arguments we see on this board are simply behind the times and have lost much of their relevence.

The amount of money above entry fees to cash players is directly associated with sponsorship.

The amount of prizes offered to non-cash players is directly related to them receiving merchandise instead of cash...which has its upsides.

Being concerned about maintaining a difference between the two...soley based on the problems associated with bringing legitimacy to cash payouts...seems a little off-base.

As outside money comes into the sport...we all know it will be going to cash divisions. Why persecute the merchandise system (and I use the term toungue in cheek), simply because the cash system doesn't have the cash.

There is enough of a difference between the top cash spots and the top merchandise spots to warrant the best players playing for cash. We all know the best players are playing for cash.

It strikes me as odd...that the complaints about our current system...do not generate from the region where it is utilized to it's full capabilities.

We heard few complaints about Advanced sandbagging before the ratings system. In fact, the players from this region who are doing well in the professional arena...spent very little time in Advanced. Dagon Owen. Nolan Grider. John Maiuro. Justin Landers. These guys were spawned in the center of the merchandise payout system and spent little time in it.

Players who spent alot of time in the Advanced fields...and who finally turned Pro...for the most part have struggled.

Most of the tournaments in this region fill early. Players are turned away. It is pretty much non-stop tournament action. There are new players coming in.

In the midst of all this...the T10 is thriving.

But we will sit back and listen to the incessant moanings of people in other regions, who for some mysterious reason...are succeptible to all kinds of problems from this system.

Sure...at some point...there will have to caps on merchandise payouts. I can't see a need for such a thing until we get to the point where single am divisions are filling up entire tournaments. I'm sure it will happen. Maybe not in other places...but it will happen here.

Between the many PDGA tournaments offered in this region and the T10...regular non-cash tournament players are paying alot of money for entry fees. Most of them spend more than two weekends out of town. Tack on lodging and food...and it can be quite expensive.

By reading some peoples's posts on this board...one might think that spending money for entries and travel makes one a professional athlete. That the pursuit of fun...cannot be attained while spending money or seriously competing in sports competition.

Then we get to hear how all this could be Nirvana if entry fees were low. At the same time...we get to read about how nodody is making money...and there are all kinds of expenses with running tournaments. Are we to believe that getting merchandise is one of the expenses? Are we to believe that low entry fees will pave the way to paying for the services?

If you add it all up...there is something that simply does not jive in some of the arguments presented on this board.

[morgan]

>It's the same complaint that Open players have
>with Masters sometimes winning more by shooting
>worse scores.

If a master gets a slightly worse score than a MPO in the same event, the master **deserves** more money because he's fighting against arthritis, low muscle fiber count, worse lungs, tight tendons, worse heart, less energy, bad legs, bad feet.

Masters are not baggers. Getting old is a real thing, your body gives out. If you get a score at age 47 that compares with a guy who is 23, you outplayed the guy by a mile!!!!!!!

[idahojon]

Thank you, Morgan.

[dixonjowers]

If the geezers are fighting that many problems then maybe they should play from the white tees. Or perhaps extra payout for simply showing up.

Susan and I spent way over 20 Grand last year alone playing Am tourneys and contributing beer,etc. to fellow competitors. I spent over $30 today playing the Fly18 course in Dunedin (Cartfees/beer/doubles). Haven't made a dollar as an Am and still love it. We spend all our money playing tourneys cuz it's what we would do anyway if we were rich. Am Worlds alone should set us back at least $1500. If you're good enough to make money as an Am, you're too good-go pro! Many Ams dont want to play tourneys for money-just the chance to compete against like-skilled players and socialize with the good people we meet.

All this talk about payouts and cost. Why are you playing this game if not for fun. Disc Golf is not a right but a privilage. Here on Kaua'i all I have is a portable and a bunch of trees, and NO other players. Feel fortunate to have the competition and the comradery that comes along with the sport. I feel fortunate to have been invited to the worlds and can't wait to get my [*****] kicked. So it will cost me $$. So I won't be able to see my family at Christmas. Sorry mom.

Shane...the talk came from accusations that amateurs are playing for profit in this sport. Not just some...the accusation is that all of them are playing for profit.

We are doing the opposite of what you are saying. We are saying that we are gladly putting money into the system. I have no complaints about the money it costs me. I have no complaints about what I get in return. My returns are the tournaments provided for me, and the great time I have at them.

I just have a problem with people saying I'm playing for profit. I think it's a stupid thing to say.

Whether ams are playing for merchandise or trophies...fact is...it isn't simply for the "fun" of it. Somebody has to win...and somebody has to lose. That's why we keep score. Somebody won't get the first place trophy...or ribbon...or whatever. I know you'll have fun at Worlds...but try not to post a score that is better than your competition. It might make them sad. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Worlds is a good example...come play for the fun of it...and try to be the world champion. One has to admit...the above statement is a little more complicated than let's all just frolic through the flowers of life.

Randy I fully understand. I am just jealous, I want to play disc competitively. That is why we play. I just was trying to point out ya'll have the luxuries of debating these issues while I have zero competition here. Maybe this was the wrong thread/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gifYou going to worlds or playing Aspen this year. Was great throwing with ya last year.

Are we supposed to feel sorry for the guy living in Kaua'i? /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Shane, i'm a product design engineer. If you know of any openings there, I will come to work there, bring my basket and we can play disc golf every day /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[tafe]

All ams playing for profit? That's insane. I have sold TWO discs. I'm the sort of person that gets replacement discs and collector's oddities with my winnings, not just stuff to turn around and sell. Admittedly I am sitting on a large stockpile (last count around 300), but I can't see parting with them just yet. I spend virtually all my meager earnings travelling and playing and I wouldn't give it up for anything.

[MTL21676]

I payed a 25 dollar entry fee this weekend and walked out w/ 8 discs, a 10 dollar gift certificate to a steakhouse, a collared shirt and a hat.....I call that making money

[snoophaney]

The Advanced winner at Horizons won 22 discs and some type of bag. Now let's say at $7 bucks a piece(street value), he won more in merch. than the 2nd place open player($145.00). I'd say he could easily make a little dough off that, if he so chooses. And that would be just fine by me.

Shane, I'm heading for Aspen again. There's just something about playing disc golf where the ground isn't in the way. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Best of luck at Worlds. I'm sure it will be awesome.

Sounds like Robert had fun! And Robert...I have had some good merchandise and donated sponsorship certificate payouts also. I have never converted anything to cash. So I don't call that making money. If I was good enough to win bonanza payouts on a regular basis, in the large, competitive market where I play...I would turn pro.

If we ever wanted to get serious about the "true am" argument...we could suggest how important it would be to adhere to such "true am" standards on a local level.

So clubs and organizers who use merchandise payouts in minis would need to stop doing so. I'm not going to go into how impossible it would be to run local minis based on lower than current $3 to $5 entry fees...and offer no merchandise payout. While some would suggest that a new breed of players would flock to these local minis in the spirit of fun...

Do away with merchandise payouts and what you will have is players playing for cash at all levels in local minis. Money in...money out.

Pros pay entry fees to tournaments. At least 0 of their entry fees goes to their payout.

Which means...pros pay for nothing. They simply put money into their own gambling pool.

No matter what anyone says here...merchandise payouts, while maybe spoiling some "amateur" players...help pay for disc golf tournaments. On a local level they help pay for club expenses.

Anyone who wants to change that...will have to provide an alternative to income lost.

Example:

Pros and ams alike pay service charges at all tournaments...PDGA type and local minis. And the ams don't play for prizes.

I have my opinions on what the result would be.

[MTL21676]

yeha i hear what ur saying Randy....im just saying if i sold everything i woulda made money..i ussualy just give stuff away as CTP's or to newcomers anyway

[neonnoodle]

Randy: "Chuck, I don't see the relevence in what someone gets opposed to someone else in a different division, at the same tournament. If there are 20 players in one division, and 5 in another...I would think the winner in the larger division might get more...no matter the division."

If division size is the only consideration, then let's just have ONE. That one division would have to have the highest payout, right!?! Everyone would be happy right!?! WRONG!!!

There are other considerations. If you want to be taken seriously, and that seems to be your only motivation, then you have to, as Chuck points out correctly, take other key factors into consideration as well. Skill level, natural progression of risk vs reward, a healthy relationship between classes and divisions of players. To simply declare that the largest division will have the largest payout neglects all of these key factors.

We are not at a stage in our evolution where we can rely on where the money falls to result in a functional growth oriented competitive system. We must use our brains and our understanding of the relationships between classes and divisions to formulate a competitive system that results in the best posturing of our sport to hold on to current players and added many more. We have not arrived at that system yet. The dysfunction is right out in the open. This thread is a testimonial to it. A Master winning more cash than an Open player who shot better at the same event is a testimonial to it. An Intermediate player getting a larger payout than an Advanced player is a testimonial to it. Any system that rewards inferior play more than superior play is a testimonial to it. On some level, regardless of sophistry and delusion, you just know that there is something very wrong.

This is why we have to make a conscious and educated attempt to structure our competitive system to reduce that and increase what just makes common sense.

[bruce_brakel]

Team Brakel paid $60 to play this weekend, plus gas and fast food. We all came in second. We went home with nine discs and a couple of towels. All of the discs went into the Waterford Junior Girls' selling inventory. I guess we broke even but we were way ahead when you consider the intangibles.

The amateurs running the event made a decent profit.

I saw one amateur winner afterwards yelling, "Free discs!" and giving his stuff away. He probably came out ahead when you consider the intangibles also.

[my_hero]

Wimm,

I decided that i would keep track this year on the return(if any) on my entry fee's. I've logged every PDGA entry fee, every mini entry fee, and even charitable entry fee's that have no return. As of 6/16/03, i'm up $700 on entry fee's alone. Now, have i spent $700 on lodging, travel(gas/plane ticket), food, etc.....? You bet! Then again, i still play for fun(even though you might not have thought that after the last round of the COTO. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif)

Disc sales is where the profit is. I am so grateful to have <FONT COLOR="0000ff">Discraft</FONT> backing me.

[Pizza God]

Randy, one reason I am not out at the courses every weekend right now is the fact that I am broke, The 2 weekends I did come out for, I sold some of my old plastic that I won as an Am to pay my entry fee.

I was hoping to be able to play the Arlington tournament this next month, but my only Asst Manager informed me this week that he is going out of town that weekend. Working Open to close for a week. Fun fun. (I need to save the cash anyways)

[rhett]

Because there's a huge skill overlap between some portions of the Open, Master Pro and Advanced divisions...

Except that the overlap is where all the crappy Open Pros who never ever cash in any events play at the same skill level as the Advanced guys. There are not a plethora of Advanced guys playing Open Pro caliber golf. That ain't reality. That was perception. It isn't true.

QUOTE: If you're good enough to make money as an Am, you're too good-go pro!

REPLY: This is crap. Not every advanced player has the will or desire to turn pro. I'm caught in this dilemma right now. I can probably place in the top5 in most advanced tournaments if I'm putting well. In Open, I'd maybe cash in 1 out of 10 events. Is this good enough to turn pro? I personally don't think so, and that's what really matters. At least until the PDGA says once you hit this point, you must turn Pro, which it never will.

I'm also not in such a great financial situation where I can just spend money on entry fees, lodging, food, etc and only expect a 10% ROI. I wish I was, I'd play nothing but Open. But I can play advanced, do well, keep the plastic I throw and sell the rest cheap and at least make enough for my next entry fee. I like it this way and am very reluctant to change.

The way I see it, there are 2 types of Amatuers: the ones who are using the division as a stepping stone to playing Open, and those who are happily playing AM because they only play a couple times a week due to other reasons and want to get out in tournaments and have fuin without the pressures of Open.

If you are in the first group, then don't complain about baggers. Get out there practice, get experience and move up. If you are in the second, more power to you. Have fun, make friends, get some discs, and go home content.

I used to be in the first group. Looking forward to being a competitive Open golfer. Now I'm not so sure...

Chuck,

"The problem as I see it is when so-called Ams win more net value than so called pros for shooting worse scores. It's the same complaint that Open players have with Masters sometimes winning more by shooting worse scores."

You are looking at a distorted angle. This can easily happen if the amature division has a larger turnout. Let's say there are 43 advanced players at a tournament and only 24 open players. The payout is the top third. The advanced payout is going to be larger than the open unless there is added money. The scores shot in seperate divisions has nothing to do with payout!!!!! When a Masters player wins shooting -21 under par he is paid according to the money in his division against the number of players in his division. A pro shooting -26 and placing third and making less money is only because that is the payout for his division. One has nothing to do with the other. You are reading way to much into it to compare scores and money. This is just another example of people trying to brain wash others to believe their way. The Masters player receives X-dollars for his win in his division and the third place open receives X-dollars for his finish, period. To even suggest the masters player is selfish or the system is broken or anything else is absurd. It's just another case of open whining!

Nick,

"There are other considerations. If you want to be taken seriously, and that seems to be your only motivation, then you have to, as Chuck points out correctly, take other key factors into consideration as well. Skill level, natural progression of risk vs reward, a healthy relationship between classes and divisions of players. To simply declare that the largest division will have the largest payout neglects all of these key factors."

You are blowing smoke again. They are seperate divisions and have nothing to do with each other. These other so called considerations are a smoke screen. Healthy relationship between classes and divisions of players???? You simply do not have a clue. These are only "key factors" in your head. Since when did the PDGA come out and state that if you play in one division and score worse than another division you must forfit your prize even if your division had more players? You guy's crack me up playing God./msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gifLOL

"Any system that rewards inferior play more than superior play is a testimonial to it. On some level, regardless of sophistry and delusion, you just know that there is something very wrong."

I hope your deciples are reading today. This is how they leave when their Father is exposed. Not one single system in the PDGA has rewarded inferior play as you suggest. Open your eye's deciples. Do you think for a second that our organizational leaders would have allowed this for so many years? I have had the pleasure to meet Brian and Mark, who beat me at worlds in 97', and I can assure you they are up to speed on our competitive system. Please ask them their opinion. You are the only one that know's something is wrong because you live to find problems on this board that do not exist.

Thanks to My-Hero for the financial statement. It's good to hear about pros who are up on their entry fees! Just be sure that the more you win...the more fun you have. Know what I mean, Maynard? /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Nicks post was silly. Until added money comes into pro tournaments...there will never be a big enough gap between pro winnings and am winnings unless pro entry fees go up to $1000 per event and ams pay $10 entry fees.

With little added money to pro fields...merchandise payouts to ams should PROBABLY be higher than pro payouts once in awhile. Especially seeing as how the merchandise payouts can also benefit the organizer...or the pro payout...or the disc manufacturer who is giving sponsorship....

As opposed to the added perks of Pro entry fees which are...which are....which are....what are they??????????????????????? How much goes to something other than pro payout????????????????

There is nothing wrong with believing that amateurs should simply play for the fun of it...and they should never get any prizes. But do you have to use such idiotic arguments in your attempt to validate the belief?

Some of these goofy arguments are so easy to put down...I feel like a bully. Stand up and fight like a man! /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

I think they are more afraid of losing their deciples than admitting their point is stupid!/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[ck34]

I'm not talking so much about Advanced versus Open payouts as much as Advanced versus Master Pro where you have players with close to the same ratings not playing against each other. Advanced wins a basket in 35-person division. Master Pro wins maybe $125 in an 8-person division. Total scores are comparable.

I'm not whining. I'm doing something about it by running a ratings event series this year so those with similar ratings play together and make the divisions even larger with more for everyone.

Jerry, it DOES make a difference when lower divisions have higher payout at the same event. The 's' would hit the fan if the Master winner at an NT event got a bigger check than the Open winner. That's why Master and older only events would be a great idea. No one is comparing PGA tour winnings with the old guys Champion tour in ball golf.

Chuck,
There is no advanced player who can beat me on a regular basis unless it is past time to move up. I compare my scores with the advanced field at every tournament and they get close every once in a while and beat me even fewer times. I'm not sure that is a fair comparison. But I would love to add them to our pauper fields.
Your open pro's are spoiled if they actually think they should receive more money than the winner of a much larger division. If it's not much larger then they will not get more money. The open pro player has no right to complain about money in another division. Now we could start a new thread about open pro players reacting the very same way amature players are reacting to high payouts being threatened to be replaced by trophy's.

[tdwriter]

I'm sure the pro divisions would love to have more advanced players to move up. More money toward the payout. More near cashing pros would cash. More mid level Advanced would "cash" or "cash" higher.
>
RwC

The plastic I win either gets sold for my next entry fee, or to save for future use.

[ck34]

Well Jerry, you're in the Nick category, right at the bottom of the Gold division (955 break). No wonder you support the Master Pro division so strongly since it's your most competitive in the current structure. Your rating is sliding tantalizingly close to that 955 break which would allow you to win cash in a bigger Silver division with a bunch of Advanced guys to beef up the division. I checked your results and it looks like you might have tied for first in Advanced once but mostly you were competitive with the top 1/3.

Good, bring it on! You were looking at results from PDGA sanctioned events which I played poorly in. That trend will not continue on any consistant basis. (I hope.)/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif I actually had my best year winning three T10 events and finishing second in several more. My rating dropped from 983 in the beginning, partly because I suffered from exhaustion at worlds and had to drop out. I played tired and weak for two days longer than I should have. But I'm sure everyone has the same excuses. I have no right to say otherwise I know, but rest assured Things will change over the next year. Keeping my fingers crossed!

[neonnoodle]

Hey Chuck, NEVER put Jerry in the same category as me. I categorically deny any similarity. My rating is on the way up too. I plan on becoming even more firmly entrenched as a Open Pro Donator before I can start sandbagging in the Masters. /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

>Your open pro's are spoiled if they actually think they should >receive more money than the winner of a much larger division.

I would disagree. A tournament is a competitive event and hence the best players should come out on top and receive the larger prizes.

Should the player who shoots the best scores that weekend (i.e. best golfer) be awared less than an inferior player in a larger division?

I think the ultimate purpose of divisions is an attempt to allow all players a chance of winning something, not a guarantee to winning more than they deserve.

[neonnoodle]

And at this point it takes planning and standards to insure that this happens. Market forces if left to their own, at this point, would make Advanced the highest payout at almost every event right now! Amateur?

Are their any Amateur Advanced players out there that think your payouts should be greater than in the Open division players due to feild size?

No, am players should be playing for trophies only. reduce entry fees and more people would play tornaments.I know alot of people who don`t want to pay 20-30 bucks to play a couple of rounds of golf. This would also IMO reduce bagging.

I like the idea of ams playing for trophies only. Lunch, and a players package would be good and give some $$$ to a worthy charity. In Florida many of the tourneys are pro only or am only, this appears to be the way they are all going. Daytona was full 3 weeks in advance. Use Gainesville or Sarasota as a great example of how an am tourney can be run. Low entry fee, lunch both days, players package, GREAT TD running things, lots of CTPs-everybody has a good time. Gainesville DGC works all year getting sponsors. We have it so good on the Fabulous Florida Tour (14 tourneys) that it kills you to miss an event. IMO am players in my division here mostly play for bragging rights and comraderie.

[neonnoodle]

The PDGA is unlikely to promote a policy that would immediately alienate the pro-style players currently populating a class ironically and erroneously called "Amateur". What they and we might be capable of is formally introducing a “not-for-profit” class of competition for TDs to utilize or not according to their and their events participants needs while still offering a division for merchandise payout.

As with anything new, it will take time and effort to implement, and we are assured of only one thing; that those that feel they are loosing a privilege will whine and complain regardless of the overall and long term benefits.

Nick,
You are correct in saying the PDGA is unlikely to promote or support your position. You are however incorrect in your opinion that there are pro-style players currently populating the amature division. I guess by this post you are admitting your ratings system has failed? Why would you make such a comment after all the work that has gone into the ratings? You cannot have it both ways. Either the ratings system works or your pro in amature division statement is ironic and erroneous. You have also misguided people by attempting to validate some kind of overall and long term benefits that have yet to be proven as this theory has not been adopted by the PDGA.

David,
Why do you think the PDGA has divisions anyway? Why do you think their prizes and money are seperated? I guess if you have children and they participate in a sporting activity like say football and win the high school championship you will make them refuse their recognition because there were collegiate teams as well as pro teams that were better? You are making false comparisons. If you and Nick want amatures to play for trophy's that is okay. But to compare amatures to pro's in todays PDGA approved sanctioned tournaments is absurd. You are basically saying since the pro is better he deserves some kind of special treatment. I respectfully and completely disagree with you. If there are two open pro players at a tournament and lets say 36 amature players, and the pro naturally shoots the best score, in your scenario the pro should receive a larger payout than the amature winner. This is crazy thinking. I understand Nick taking his stance because he loves to play the devils advocate, but how can you not see that they are not in the same league and their money has nothing to do with the open fields money? If it did then you would have to add some of the added money in the amature division and stop paying out at retail.

[jconnell]

Jerry,

By pro-style players, Nick doesn't mean Pro-caliber players. He's still talking about Advanced and Intermediate caliber players in the amateur divisions.

The Pro-style players are the ones that play am divisions (and belong there) expecting to win stacks of plastic and bags and baskets. They are also the ones who don't want player packs or trophy-only divisions.

--Josh

Josh,
See that is why it is confusing. There is no pro-style division. If he uses the term pro-style before it is adopted by the PDGA some will not understand like me. Thanks for bringing it to my attention./msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[neonnoodle]

Jerry, it appears that you have a blind spot as concerns this issue.

Nick,
Explain further. That is a generalization.
Besides it is not technically an issue until the PDGA decides to review the subject for further consideration. Until then it is no more than a discussion.

[idahojon]

Since the PDGA sends out Am payout tables with the TD's packet and sanctioning materials, there is an expectation from above and below that Ams will be paid something. If the payout tables were not part of it, then TD's could award prizes based on raffle, order of finish, best smile, longest travel, highest marks on 5th grade history exam, or whatever they choose.

I've got over $2500 (at retail) in prizes that were donated by various vendors for the Am divisions in my upcoming C-tier. (hummingbirdresources.com/challenge) I've got $300 in added cash for the Pro's. That meets C-tier requirements. (I'll probably only have 10-12 pro players and the rest ams.)

According to the payout table, if I have 10 pro's with $40 entry fee, plus added cash, the payout will be 1-$294, 2-164.50, 3-105, 4-73.50, and 5-70. On the Am side, including value of the player's pack (all donated, so the pro's get one too), the division winners will be getting more than all but the first place pro. There are baskets for every division both men and women. There are also enough donated prizes that every Am will go away with something, be it a mini, a shirt, or a disc.

All administrative costs have to be taken out of the Am fees, so I can preserve all the Pro entry fees for their purse. It's still going to be a pretty rich tournament for a one-day, first time, C-tier.

I don't think anyone will complain. The pro's know they are competing against each other for their money plus added, plus a players pack including lunch. The am's, at this point, know they are going to get a player's pack equal to or more than their entry fee. Everything else is gravy.

Since this is a first year tourney, there has been a lot of good will on the part of sponsors. I hope that can be sustained in the future and that it's not just a one time deal. I've been able to get a lot of administrative stuff donated (printing, safety stuff, etc.) but there have been out of pocket costs (sanctioning fee, insurance, paint, etc.) that will have to be paid for. If there is any "profit" after it's all said and done, that will go to the local youth disc golf program to buy discs for new players.

Things are tied up well enough that I am leaving for Atlanta in the morning for a professional conference (my day job), to come back for the last few days of course prep and final details. I may even get to play a round or two while I am there.

Jon,

I think what you are doing is great and "FAIR." I think it is funny that all of the players are happy in the pro division. This proves the open players attending your event are real stand up professionals and all around good guy's. Nick, why are they not mad the amatures are receiving more in their payouts? My guess is because there are a lot more amatures at the event!! Size does matter. (no pun intended)/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Jerry,

I think the PDGA has divisions to promote the sport of disc golf and to give a larger percentage of players a chance at winning something.

With your football analogy I would say that winning a high school championship is not remotely equivalent to winning the Super Bowl.

Let's say there are 20 pros and 100 ams playing in an event and that the #1 am is 10 strokes behind the #20 pro. Should the #1 am make more than the last place pro? Personally I don't think so. What has the am done that is so special?

I think that the prizes and money should not be completely seperated. I really think that everyone should be competing in one division and we should have concurrent sub-divisions based on ratings. Accorinding to my idea an entry fee would be split 25% open divison (all competitiors) and 75% sub-divisions (ratings).

[solberg]

OK, some numbers from David's post:

20 Pros pay $50 to play = $1000
100 Ams pay $10 to Play = $1000

Something like this, top pro will win more than the Am winner would.

20 Pros pay $50 to play = $1000
100 Ams pay $30 to Play = $3000

Am winner will take home more money than the Pro.

Options I hear on this board from guys like Nick, is take that $3000 and pay the Am's $1000 and take their money ($2000) that they do not deserve because they are Amature and give them a trophy and Lunch.

Which does anyone think will help grow the sport, Grow the Advanced and Pro divisions for the future?

It's all in how much we decide to charge the divisions, not the ability to take division money and give it to other divisions!

David,
Thank you for making my point. I was hoping someone would take the bait. You are exactly right. The high school player cannot be compared to super bowl champions. The amatures likewise cannot be compared to the pro's. Now to answer your question./msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

"Should the #1 am make more than the last place pro? Personally I don't think so. What has the am done that is so special?"

This is the thinking that shows the true colors of the greedy pro's. The victory by the amature is no less special for him than the win by the pro. For anyone to suggest different is validating my earlier statement that you believe the pro deserves special treatment. Where your thoughts are jumbled is thinking you can compare the divisions. The PDGA saw fit to create divisions to allow players to fairly compete with others of similar skill levels. The PDGA set payout standards limiting the abuse the amature takes in donating to the pro's. They did this because people like you are to shallow to see that the divisions are there for a reason and would seek to rape the amatures further if allowed. Yes the amature winner deserves everything he gets when he wins. If the payout putts him making more than "ANY" open player, that does not invalidate his victory or make him any less worthy of his prize. Which by the way he had no imput into deciding what it would be. Your stance is weak at best and Greedy at worst!

I'm still waiting for the advice I need to start making a profit playing this game as an amateur. I'm down another $6 after tonight. That's not including expenses...two oil can Heinis...and a Coke at the end.

and again...some of my entry went to merchandise payout...from which there is a little input to the organizer. The same cannot be said for the players who played Open.

They pay into their own pot. I, as an amateur, pay into something a little broader than my players pool.

I know I'm getting into the skulls of our hardest heads on this message board. You all owe me a beer for my trouble. And no....I don't enjoy having to say the same things over and over to you numbskulls.

Jerry,

How am I making your point? Yes the Super Bowl winner can not be compared to state high school champs. However you are essentially saying that we should pay them the same -- just in a different currency.

>If the payout putts him making more than "ANY" open player, >that does not invalidate his victory or make him any less >worthy of his prize

It dosen't invalidate his victory, it does however reward the 21st best player at the tournament. In my opinion that would be special treatment. If I were a "greedy" pro you might be able to prove I have a bias. I don't, I am an advanced player who recognizes a better golfer.

My payout proposal does not ensure that the top am makes less than any pro who scores higher but I feel it would more properly reward skill instead of how many are in your division.

I'll try to run some numbers in the next day or two and post my results.

[neonnoodle]

"Options I hear on this board from guys like Nick, is take that $3000 and pay the Am's $1000 and take their money ($2000) that they do not deserve because they are Amateur and give them a trophy and Lunch."

It is clear that you have misunderstood me.

I have never said anything remotely like that. I absolutely do not support taking entry fees from one division to payout in another.

What I am saying is something more similar to David. That in order to minimize the inherent conflict between our 4 to 5 top skill level divisions, in there attempts to attract players, we need to have an entry fee and payout standard that makes common sense and functions harmoniously top to bottom.

Certainly there are millions more Sunday hackers in ball golf; do they get paid more than Tiger Woods? The difference is Ball Golf has time and recognition so that the economics match the divisional and classification break down. This is not yet the case in Disc Golf. We must manage it in a way that makes sense, is fair, and serves the greater good and goals of our association.

We can't just look at this problem in sections, it is a top to bottom issue and it needs to be addressed in a top to bottom manner. There should be plenty of room for almost every type of player and every variety of motivation to participate. The challenge in my opinion and based on what I have observed is the lack of a True Professional at one end, and then the lack of a True Amateur at the other end, the result of which is a huge messy conflicting gray area all jumbled up in the middle. We need to start the process of untangling. R-Tiers seem to be the best option available for starting that process. But a clearer definition of Pro and Am would go a long way to resolving this as well.

[seewhere]

I made $30.00 selling some of my discs from when I was an am.. hee hee /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif $$ is going towards BEER.

year to date $65 rest were trade.beer..Hmmm..sounds good to me/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[tdwriter]

Well, since I mainly compete in the SNDG tour (sorry <FONT COLOR="ff0000">Rhett</FONT>), I can say that according to the 2002-03 stats page on SNDG.org, I won a grand total of $416 worth of merchandise in 16 events. Not great but I did cash in all but 2 events. I will also say that I spend a hell of a lot more than that on expenses, but probably made a hundred or so selling plastic. It's hard to tell because I sold some old inventory that I was no longer interested in throwing. And I had the most fun playing than I have in 18 years!
Hope this year's as good.

As far as PDGA events, I played three (two were PDGA/SNDG events), finished 8th, 5th and 2nd and won about $85. Did it just for the player's rating and support the TD's. rWc

[neonnoodle]

Hey Russ! Question for you. Is there any SNDG rule to stop me form coming to a SNDG event and playing in Advanced Amateur? Just wondering?

[tdwriter]

Nick, I don't think so. However, the SNDG does follow PDGA rules, so anyone who has ever won cash money in a disc golf event is stuck in the pro ranks.

So if you haven't cashed, bring it on. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

I'd love to play a round with you either way. I always love to see how I stack up against other players. Of course the last time I did that, some Nashville boys beat up on me real bad. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

But I've hung in there with some pretty good players (Adv Masters, that is) and it doesn't hurt my feelings to lose against similarly skilled players.

And yes, it does bother me that my division has guys who finish way off the lead pack. Which is why I've considered moving up or at least sideways to the advanced division.

Maybe I'll see ya in Iowa next year. Actually, I'd love to meet a lot of these board (bored?) posters. Maybe one day. Maybe next year. rWc

[rhett]

$416 / 14 = $29.71 average pay for SN Event

$85 / 3 = $28.33 average pay for PDGA event


I thought you kept saying how much better the SN Tour was??? /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[neonnoodle]

Easy there Rhett. Your bias is showing. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[memphisdiscgolf]

Nick my understanding of the rules in the Southern Nationals are if you have cashed in a Southern National PRO Tournament you cannot play AMs anymore.

That being said, if you have cashed in PDGA but NOT in Southern Nationals, you can play in an AM Southern National Event.

Someone can correct me if I am wrong.

Brad
www.memphisdiscgolf.com (http://www.memphisdiscgolf.com)

[neonnoodle]

Where and when's the event with the 10 Polehole Give-away, I'll mark it on my calandar. I want to donate a basket to the new Lake Nockamixon course but can't afford to. Maybe those SN ams wouldn't mind financing it.../msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

I say an Open player who should probably be playing as an amateur wouldn't be a shoo in for winning Advanced. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[neonnoodle]

Who said anything about winning. If I shoot my average I should get one of the 10 baskets.

[tdwriter]

It's Hattiesburg, Miss., in August, Nick, come on down.

Hey Brad, nice to have some backup. I wonder if the SN will ever adopt a system such as the one some of these guys are advocating. I hope not.

Hey, if I ever cash in an SNDG event can I still play advanced in PDGA /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif Just wondering. rWc

[keithjohnson]

if you don't cash in a PDGA sanctioned SNDG event you are correct....
ANY cashing in a pdga sanctioned event(no matter if you split last cash for 50 cents each)......and you are now a pro.....
just stay away from that year end tourney russ and you'll be fine /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[tdwriter]

No problem there, Keith. I'm going for one of those baskets in the SNDG Am Championships. I didn't work my way up to second place in points (advanced master) for nothing. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif Gotta have another shot at Dr. Goby! rWc

[keithjohnson]

am championship not "paying " cash then huh?

i thought you had mentioned a tourney that was coming up that was getting pdga sanctioning and wanted to let you know in case you were going to test the waters in pro /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[neonnoodle]

Hey! One more question: Is Masters in SNDG 35?

Ooh Baby! Now we're talkin' baskets... /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[tdwriter]

This may be the last year for the 35-year-old age limit for Master, but I'm not sure. It's being phased out to be in line with the PDGA.

Bring it on, dude, if ya think ya can take us./msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif
>
Last post for me till Sunday, gotta tournament to go to. Have a good weekend! rWc