Persecution Of The Am Divisions Must Stop

To Whom It May Concern:

My name is Jeff Boles and I have been playing disc golf on and off for 4 ½, to 5 years. I have become a pretty ok golfer I think. I am planning on going Pro after the 2003season is up. My skill level is still is a little below the average Pro it is a bad place to be! I have been worked with a few organizations and clubs in the past. It has come to my attention that Am players have and are being given the short end of the stick. I believe that the future of this sport is in the Ams divisions. For this sport to grow you need new players. Not squeezing the old ones to move to the pro divisions before they are ready. So with that, then why does the PDGA give suggestions on how to pay Ams so poorly? A TD this weekend stated that he went off what your guidelines had suggested. Is that true? Player’s package should come from sponsors, not the Ams entries. I have played in tourneys that paid just fine and got a nice player package too. We are paying to compete in an Am level. Not paying for player’s packages. Do you think the Ams should get weaker pay outs to detour us from playing am. That is going to drive people from the sport and not bring new Ams. That is my opion.
From my experiences most Pros won’t travel to far if there is no money, but the Ams will. 65% of my winnings get donated any ways. I pay for all my travel and hotel and entries just like the pros and get so little. Do the hotels out there cut us slack because were ams, No! If the TDs out there don’t want to pay us ams then don’t ask us to come. Change the flyer to say Pros only. Who said that all sponsors need to go to the pro fields, the PDGA or TDs?
Some people out there might take this as crying, I don’t care! Someone needs to stand up and stop the persecution of the Am divisions. I will be an Am for a few more events so don’t think I’m doing this for me. I play this sport for the enjoyment, and I find it hard to see someone in the lower divisions take so little for so much.
I am posting this because I think everyone needs to know what’s happing out there. This letter is not address to one individual or Club. And if you have seen this happing feel free to let us know rite here. This is where the Am Buck Stops Here. I am sorry for all the headaches TDs

Sincerely sadden
JB

Thanks to JustForTheInfo for pushing me to stand up.

Spoken like a true bagger/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif Maybe you need to move to VA or NC where they obviously don't push the ams into pro.

I believe that WE in NC dont really have the AUTHORITY to make people play pro,its still an individuals decision.

[jconnell]

Jeff,

Some of your points are valid. The notion that experienced amateur players are pushed up too fast or before they are ready is very true, although the ratings based divisional breaks should do much to change the conventional "move-up, move-up, move-out" attitude that has prevailed for years. THAT attitude needs to change in order for this sport to progress at all.

I am an amateur player like yourself, but unlike you (and probably others), I don't see the need to pay out big time in amateur competition. The definition of amateur: (1) A person who engages in an art, science, study, or athletic activity as a pastime rather than as a profession. (2) in sports. An athlete who has never accepted money, or who accepts money under restrictions specified by a regulatory body, for participating in a competition. (Dictionary.com)

In my opinion, amateurs compete for the competition, not the pot of gold at the end of the tournament rainbow. If you want to play to get paid, play professionally.

The payout structure for amateur divisions in the PDGA is flatter to spread the "winnings" to more players. And player packages are encouraged so that everyone gets something out of their effort aside from a "thanks for coming". The idea is to make more people happy than to make just the best players happy. Pro divisions cater to the top 1/3, amateur divisions should not, IMHO.

While there are occasional shady dealings when it comes to paying out the amateur division (severely overvaluing merch to pad other divisions or the TD/Club's pocket would be one instance), things like players' packages and flatter, deeper payouts do nothing to harm the amateur divisions or its players.

Personally, I'm a proponent of lowering amateur entries along with the flatter, deeper payouts and players' packages. Part of the problem that sparks complaints like Jeff's, IMO, is the sky-high amateur entry fees at some events. When a player forks over $40-60 for a tournament, he/she should expect to see a good return on their money. And that's not to say they need to get paid more merch for winning/cashing, but it means at least seeing that all that am money is getting spent well on the ams through food, players' packs, quality (not necessarily large quantity) merch, etc.

I hate to ever say "move up" when it comes to choosing Adv or Pro (and I regret ever saying it to anyone in the past), but if what you want is big payouts to cover portions of your expenses, "move up".

--Josh

You guy are miss the point. It made me sad to see my friend win his first Tournament this year, which was a B tier event and was awarded with so little. And he paid so much to be there. It wasn’t just this one event I have seen it in a lot events. How is it some Tournaments can pay the Ams rite and some cut us short? Sponsors that’s how! Now who decides where and how the funds get dispersed, the TDs or PDGA. Is the PDGA give guidelines to TDs and if so who’s monitoring that the pay out are legit

I was just messin' with some local ams. What I really meant was that our pay-outs in the MD, VA, NC area are exceptional outside of a couple TDs whos' names shall remain annonymous/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Josh,
I just wanted to tell you "I'm sorry." It must have been difficult growing up without a heart. I have witnessed exactly what Jeff is talking about. I can even tell him what to expect next for speaking out.
Jeff,
Do not let anyone convience you that you were mistaken. They will try. Dylan already did. You see how they will attack you or try to be slick and pass one over on you like I was just messing with you. The amature pays much of the expenses in any tournament. The most to be exact. The TD or Club collects the money and distributes it as they see fit. That is why you see most of the money going into the Open division. I do not agree with Josh that the amature should just take it like a man and shut up or move up. I know he did not use those words, but in essence that is what he said. That has been the way it has been done for a long time and most people are not reseptive to change for several reasons. One is they think it means they are addmitting they were wrong, and the second is GREED. Had more to say, but I have to go for now.

If you ever felt cheated on a pay outs then lets us know. AMs might not have game but we do have brains. Do the math! We have to let people know that AMs are disc golfers too. And with out us they don't have ground to stand on. So don't treat us like idiots, because we are watch/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

I think the am entry fees for events should be much lower than what many are. If ams pay a large amount in entry fees they should receive a large amount back. Wether it is through payout , Players packages, CTPs, food etc. They should get a good amount back. If you are playing tournaments to make money then you should play pro.
I have seen many tds move the numbers around and like Josh said overvalue prizes, players packs, as well as any other prize that are givin to the ams. this money is"funneled "into the pro divisions. Ams should not pay for the pros. Sponsorship should.
Lower entry fees and flatter payouts will help the am Bagging problem as well as ams feeling shafted. If they pay $20 and get 2 discs in a players package most am players should be happy. And there would still be money left over for a small payout.

[magilla]

Jeff, Check out the PDGA website and you will find the Sample of the Tour Report Forms and the Sanctioning Agreements. There it defines how a TD deals with Entries, Packages, etc. It gives a wide scale of how a TD can manage his moneys. If they wanted they can take a percentage of the purse for themselves./msgboard/images/clipart/sad.gif
Some TD's are very fair, OTHERS take full advantage. Those usually get weeded out eventually.


Vickers.....NC does have the right as given to them in the Rules to move people up from ANY division. You just have to develop a FAIR system and have it approved by the PDGA. Many currently exist AND work very well./msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

Josh thanks for taking a moment to comment. Almost most of my friends would agree that I am a take charge kind of guy. I have biting my tough long enough.

JB

[rhett]

The best advice I can give is for you to run a tourney and to do it right. However you define "right".

I currently define "the right way" as "however the people that are willing to do the work want to do it." /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Hey Jerry read before you type/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif I know for a fact that we have the best pay-outs in the area for ams. I was just Joshin' Jeff/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif If you attend any of my tourneys you would be pleased and sometimes astonished by my and other local pay-outs. This is all I was saying.

Sorry forgot to group Bill Yerd and the DE crew in with the great pay-outs.

[jconnell]

Jerry,

I did not say "shut up and take it like a man" in so many words. I was saying that what Jeff is talking about, by and large, is the norm and what it should be. Amateurs (of which I am one) should not expect to make a killing at tournaments. That's not what amateurism is.

If this is a specific incident of a total rip-off of amateurs, please let's hear the details of it. From the sounds of things, it was one TD using the PDGA to explain what is claimed to be a poor payout. Whether or not that payout was up to PDGA standards is still in question, in my mind, because we have no specifics. What was the entry fee for this event?...how many players were there in the division in question?...what was in the players' package?...what was the prize that was considered less than appropriate and what was the claimed value of it?

All I'm asking is is this really a case of the PDGA guidelines and standards being wrong, or of one TD taking advantage of or screwing over the amateurs at his tournament? Let's assign the blame where it belongs before we start lynching the PDGA for being anti-Am.

I took Jeff's initial post to be a complaint that the Ams aren't getting paid well enough. If that's the issue he's bringing, then I disagree with the notion that the Ams should be paid in 8 foot tall stacks of plastic. Lower entry fees and flatter, deeper payouts should be the norm in Am divisions, IMHO, and the PDGA appears to agree based on its guidelines. Accusations of ripping-off Ams when that happens runs counter to that goal. It's not productive, IMO.

--Josh

Move to Texas, wehave all round good payouts in the Am ranks......Carrollton Open and Texas States in Houston stick out the most to me, but I know there are many others, that I have not attended, and or, just dont come to mind at the moment.

Players pack stuff, is usually donated by sponsors, or as a draw. I know some of the stories i have seen on here, woudl lead to a major boycott to most of the people I know, in this great state.

I say pay 100% back to the ams, but make it mandatory to pay out 66%. This would make it more rewarding for at least the top 16% of the bottom half. This would also thin out the pay-out, thus making it impossible for an am to make more $$$ on tour than pros.

[jconnell]

I just want to add that I am fully in support of 100% payback to the am divisions (in case it didn't come across in my previous posts).

100% would includes players' package values (if not sponsor-donated items) and paying out to the top 40-50% in each division. In fact, Dylan's suggestion isn't bad either.

My general point is that in the amateur divisions, payout should not be the major motivation for playing and placing well in tournaments. Thus my desire to see the lower entry fees and flatter payouts and/or players' packages, and my questioning of some of Jeff's initial points.

--Josh

Could this be, "we have spoiled the ams and now they expect too much" syndrome. Just for arguments sake I challenge you to name another sport where you get paid in heaps of merchandise for playing as an amateur. I have played racquetball, ball golf, competed in track, triathlons (not me but friends), etc and you still pay a $40 to $100 entry fee and the top person gets a trophy and everyone else gets the enjoyment of the competition.
Yes, I'm a pro, yes I have been a TD, yes, I give out stacks of plastic to the am's for their efforts and pay according to the PDGA guidelines. I don't think many am's that have played my tourneys have walked away feeling ripped off, however, I know that many have walked away with a stack of plastic they will never use. When I was an am I had the same thing happen. I got used to it, spoiled by it and now I perpetuate it by giving out the same thing. I see it encouraging the great advanced and intermediate players to stay in their booty filled division while some other guys have moved to the higher division though they were less skilled.

Maybe lowering the entry fees is the right decision but it sure doesn't seem necessary. You even mentioned you had to pay for hotels, air/car fare etc to get there, what's another $20 to pitch in to get some good pros to show up. You are the sponsor when you are an am. We don't have Coca-cola or Budweiser shelling out big cash, we got you. If you think it is so easy to get sponsorship then get a sponsor to pay your entry to all the tourneys.

Most of this is tongue in cheek but geez, being the 25th best golfer at a tourney and getting over $200 worth of stuff when 16 guys kicked your *** and got jack just basically means to me that you are getting paid to sandbag.

If you are expecting great payouts then maybe you are playing as an Am for the wrong reasons.

Because of the structure of disc golf competition it is too late to change it now but I am a firm believer that Ams should only get a trophy. This won't happen because too many would whine and complain about it.

Just be glad that this sport isn't like so many others that openly uses Am entry fees to pay the Pros.

Just for the record the Raleigh Area Disc League has NEVER used Am proceeds to boost the Pro payout.

Am events here in Raleigh have always payed out in excess of 100% of the entry fees and in one case we payed out 250% of the entry fees.

watch OUT jeff,here they come.

Lance. When you play for an amateur Ball club, sponsors pay all your expenses. All their equipment is paid for. Do think the traveling ball clubs expects you pay for your room? I don't think so. How about Tiger when he went for his 2nd amateur title. Do you think he paid for that stuff? Sponsors did! Way the TD should pay for Hotel, Food, Travel expenses and disc before we even play. /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

Hey Island where are you from? I used to live on Hauula Homestead Dr on the east side of Oahu, and then went back to Hawaii Loa College in Kaneohe. Now Hawaii Pacific University/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

then why in da first place did they or whoever start paying ams PRIZES.

Excuse the typing errors.
That’s suppose to be "Maybe the TD"

EWA BEACH,OAHU born and raised

Hope your golf skills will be sharper then your typeing in Pitt/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Probably cuz there weren't any pros.

Man, I loved it when I got stacks of plastic in ams. I remember playing in Vegas in 98 and getting a basket for winning Advanced and seeing that everyone else hardly got anything. Coolers, umbrellas and bunches of junk. I was APPALLED. Then they took all of our money and put it in Open the next weekend and had a PHAT payout. KC Wide Open last year was the same thing. Ams got jack-doodly while the Open got the money.

Obviously there are extremes and I don't know the exact circumstances of your friends lousy payout but without those details its really hard to guess the fairness.

I would love to be able to meet your hotel and expense needs but we don't have the money in disc golf that ball golf could provide for Tiger.

Most of the talk about Ams playing for the wrong reasons is horse manure.

It's a simple matter of entry fees and what players get for their entry fees.

I would hope that most people have noticed the absense of complaints about payouts on almost all the tournament threads of late. As has been pointed out...there are some regions where the players are quite happy with what they get for what they pay. Professional or amateur...it doesn't matter...players should get...or have the opportunity to get back from what they put in.

There is little doubt that amateur entry fees are too high across the board. It can be argued that these high entry fees are in direct correlation to providing big payouts. If so...while it may not be for everyone...there is a market for such a thing.

On the flip side...players will not be complaining when paying low entry fees and seeing lower payouts. They may not travel to such events...

There are two basic problems:

1. An organizer who DOES skim money from amateur fields and does not provide the payout that makes them happy. It happens. It is not the norm and should be taken care of by participants getting the word out.

2. The amateur player who judges the entire disc golf experience by what they get back in payout. These players do exist, but are not the norm. There's nothing to be done with these type players except laugh at their priorities.

The best solution...and as I have pointed out...the problems are isolated...

is to pre-publish payout intentions. The exact payout doesn't need to be posted...but payout intentions that deviate from providing heavy ended payouts to top performers should be noted. The organizer who intends to load the players package as payout is a good example.

If players know the organizers intentions...then players can decide whether or not they want to pay a certain entry fee or travel expenses.

Given the fact that many players prefer players packages...and many prefer payouts...some prefer trophies...others want premium plastic...

Let the players know the intentions and everyone should be happy. At least those who opt to play in the tournament.

As for people telling you what you should like...they're shovelling horse manure.

Rhett I fought for this country freedom and other that needed our help. Freedom of speech is a good thing. I do know some of these "no profilers" and it’s not me. This is a public forum rite? I consider this a source to be able to pool everybody on the same page. Like a conference call /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif
JB

Lance,
"You even mentioned you had to pay for hotels, air/car fare etc to get there, what's another $20 to pitch in to get some good pros to show up. You are the sponsor when you are an am. We don't have Coca-cola or Budweiser shelling out big cash, we got you. If you think it is so easy to get sponsorship then get a sponsor to pay your entry to all the tourneys."

Rhett, Josh, and Kirk had me rethinking my position on this issue and along you come with this ludicrous post. The amature should not be asked to pay entry fee and double dip for open sponsorship. Have you lost your mind? So since you are having a tough time finding sponsorship and apparently are not very good at it, the amatures just looked like good victims? If you are having sponsorship problems, get help or advice from others doing well, or quit running tournaments.

Jeff,
What did I tell you. They even had me questioning my stance and along comes one who does not care if the truth comes out, he will justify it in his own mind and keep his amature sponsors.

I play Pro so this issue does not affect me personally. However, I saw the same things taking place when I was an amature years ago. Here's the problem. Everything is done to cater to the Open division. This would be fine if there was an ADGA. But to cater to any division at this point in our sport is wrong. People like Lance will never understand that. His only desire is to run a tournament that attracts the best Pro's and use the amature sponsors weather they like it or not. You could always not go, but they have the only game in town. They "all" know this. Until there is an ADGA I promise you are fighting a loseing battle.

Dylan I find my typing skills does need some work. Thanks for pointing that out. I'll manage! I'll see you in Pittsburgh /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[neonnoodle]

This is all very interesting. The only post I agree 100% with is Rhett's. Go figure.

Hey BEich Daddy /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif
955 checking in

Then they took all of our money and put it in Open the next weekend and had a PHAT payout. KC Wide Open last year was the same thing. Ams got jack-doodly while the Open got the money.


______________________

if you new how much was taken from Am Worlds and funneled to Pro Worlds (and hushed up) you'd have a fit.

this is scandalous

Okay Nick only agree's with Rhett so the rest of us are wrong! This is being blown up I'm sure, but please do not act like it does not happen after you witnessed Lances post admitting it or you do think that because they are amatures they are illiterate and stupid./msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Figures Nick would 100% agree with Rhetts post.

Ok...an organizer has a B-tier tournament and entry is set at $75 for Advanced Amateurs. The organizer opts to give everyone a toothbush and $5 trophies for those who finish in the top 3. The organizer bought the toothbrushes from a family friend at a huge mark-up. The payout turned out to be over 100%.

But since it's someone who "does" something...everyone should be happy and go about their business. NOT.

[rhett]

Jeff,

I am all for Free Speech as long as there is accountability also. The Dixie Chicks come to mind here of an example of this working. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Hey Jerry, don't attack me for stating what happens at lots and lots of tournaments and has been happening. If you don't see it then your blinders have been on. I mean really, open your eyes and go look at other sports. The amateurs in other sports are paying entry fees to compete in an organized event. Not to get booty.
I admit I haven't practiced what I preach. I give out tons of booty and watch wheelbarrow's full of quality plastic get hauled to cars as prizes. I just don't think this is necessarily the best way.

I think it would be real interesting to post on a flyer in small print <SUB>Money from amateur entry fees will be used for: Pro payout, lunch, players packages. This will affect the size of the payout</SUB>

I predict the number of registrants would be hardly affected. At least half of the ams are pretty used to getting nothing since they are in the bottom half. The only ones affected would be the ones that expect to win. As a matter of fact, we have had fundraiser tournaments where you didn't get squat for playing other than the organized event and the comraderie and those have been some of our biggest events. If you want booty for your bucks then just go buy it.

[schick]

Well of the tourney that is being complained about there were only 12 advanced players and they may have paid $40 to play. If you include the Z discs and mini that was still a decent payout in my opinion. I understand what Jeff is saying and I think that the standard has been set for AMs to get a LOT of prizes. We were guilty of it at the Hambrick, basket to first, and so many prizes to everyone last year it was about rediculous. My question is how many baskets are you able to win. Many big tourneys now give away baskets and that is over $300 then you figure in a trohphey and that is a bunch of money.

Also you have to remember that a lot of sponsors give merchandise and not $$$$ money. They want there merchandise to be distributed and that is a way to do it. So that merchandise will go in to the AMs and some of the cash from them goes to the pros. That is how it is done and anyone who runs tournaments and has tried to get sponsorship will tell you the same thing. It is not that easy to get money out of people. They get very little in return unless they are disc golf related companies. The PDGA has set the standards to pay deeper in the field so more AMs will feel they have a chance to cash and I think it does the job. Why should the same AM win a basket every weekend and the other AM's get some discs they will never throw. That is not how you get new players. You pay deeper and lower the entry fees and the people who want the money will move up. Just my opinion, lots of spoiled people and it is all of our faults..

bs

There is an ADGA, up in yankee texas, AKA D/FW area.

Arlington Disc Golf Assoc.

/msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

[solberg]

Here is an idea to help grow the player base.

Instead of taking money from the AM players, take 30% from the Pro Entry and sponsorship money and give it to the AMs!

Why, More AMs will play, get better and will become Pro.

By jacking the AMs may be why the sport continues to grow, just not in Tournament Players, because the AMs have Always been treated rudely!

I remember overhearing at Pro Worlds that the PDGA caters to the Winners, not the losers!

Brad I am not talking about this one tourney. You've been to tournements out there and the pay outs just don't add up. It also happens in the Pro divsions too, just way not as much. I think thats that 15% cut people have been talking about/msgboard/images/clipart/sad.gif

Silly, silly argument...that players will move up who want to win booty.

There are very few top advanced players who can compete for the money in professional disc golf.

And why use small print. Print it up REAL BIG. The players will probably still come but we won't have to listen to the "greedy" player BS that's always thrown around when someone questions payout that doesn't add up. It's done just as much by pros at pro tournaments where payouts don't add up.

The proof is the regions where we DO NOT hear complaining about payouts. Waco just held an A Tier event for Advanced Amateurs where the entry fee was close to $80. I didn't hear any complaining about payouts. No complaining after COTO.

Same old BS.

[quickdisc]

Hey Jeff , good luck on your quest. I'm not going
to comment here. If you need to talk off line, my
email : don.olow@pyxis.com Hang in there.

[spartan]

Speaking as a former bagger, I find the paypout for the ams to be way too much. I could easly play in Intermediate, which pays out 50% or more sometimes, and get some plastic that I will eventually sell or trade for something else.

The fact is that the Pro division should get most of the funds from the entry fees or even the TD. <FONT COLOR="ff0000">Support the sport not yourselves</FONT>. Payout the top 10% of all am divisions, give trophies for the top 3-5, and give out a few DISCS (not teeshirts) and minis as a players package. The key to happy players is a good players package without another freak'n teeshirt.

Ams that are looking to get more plastic or even worse make money off the plastic is totally wrong and is keeping a lot of players in the wrong division. Pay the pros. They pay the highest entry fee and should get paid. Shoot move the money to the Women's divisions or the Masters. Try to get new players in and not the same ams that have been collecting plastic for years. Am players shouldnt be looking to make money as an am. Ever! Buy your plastic from your local vendor and help the cause you greedy b*stards! <FONT COLOR="ff0000">Help the sport, not yourselves</FONT>.

OOHH Martin, some people aren't going to like your point of view. Prepare to be lambasted. As a past bagger I pretty much agree but I always like tshirts. Kind of a momento of the tourney. Of course custom stamped discs for the tourney are just as good. Just don't give me sweatshirts and jackets cuz I live in AZ

just cut da am division out,no ams what so ever.

Lance,
You are a hypocrite. First you do the very thing you are oposing. Then you say go look at other sports. You need to wake up and smell the roses. This is disc golf. Not some other sport. It's people like you that created the so called problem and now you want to pummel the amature division to get things where you want them. I am so sick of hearing people say take one for the pro's. This sport belongs as much to them as it does to us. You have no right to sacrifice the amatures for your selfish desires. The amatures are not even asking for your precious added money. Just that you stop asking them to support your cause. You are fooling yourself if you think amatures would continue to support you if this was brought to their attention. You ought to be ashamed as well as everyone who takes money from the amature division and places it somewhere else. You go so far as to attack them like they are the ones trying to get fat off of you when you are the one taking from them. Again what a hypocrite.

no ams what am i saying,i am an,am damm greedy pro's

Uh Jerry, its amateur.
I don't remember saying I wasn't a hypocrite. It's not a bad thing to be considering some of the other choices. Just because I don't follow my purported philosophy doesn't mean I don't still think that way. I just know that many current and past amateurs like you that were spoiled would beotch and moan if I changed it abruptly. I used to think just like Jeff, I moved up and quit beotching. You moved up and still beotch, your choice go ahead.
I get the feeling you don't like the truth and have chosen me to argue with. Pretty pointless as I don't quite have the power to change it even if you converted me.
The PDGA has standards that tournaments have to meet. Sponsors are not lining up at the doors to donate money. To meet these standards the money has to come from somewhere. It can't be the pros as the PDGA expects 100% payout. Discs can be purchased at wholesale and given as prizes at retail. This frees up some money for food, players packages, porta johns, permits, signs, pencils. If you don't like it then that's your choice but it doesn't change the facts.

[paul]

Randy's right.

(Of course, I agreed with him years ago . . . we argue the same things for years! Fascinating.)

Lance, Sorry if I come across abrasive. I certainly do not mean to, but it is to late when I hit the post button. I do not mean the money difference between wholesale and retail. That is fair to me. I thought you said they should not mind paying $20.00 if they have already paid for traveling expenses. This kind of set me off. Even today as a pro I look at out of town tournaments and weigh the posibility of cashing to offset some of my expenses. I do not believe in providing money for any division from and at the expense of another division. Just because it is a fact doesn't make it right!/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Give me a BREAK Martin. Do you think one moment those TDs aren’t making the money on the sales of the disc they are giving in the winnings. They are counting the Merchandize at List price. They all sell disc most of the time and refreshments, ctps. Sponsor pay for players package Maybe you should think twice before you start calling people name like Ba$tard. Do you know me I don't think so. I don’t need money, and I don't need Plastic. I normally give that stuff away to promote the sport. I posted this here because there is a problem out here and some one had to address it. So please don't turn this into a slugfest. All divisions should get back 100% back and any add quarks from sponsors.
JB
Thanks Don Miss Cali pretty bad rite about knows.

I recall one weekend seeing $135 price marked on top of a friends winnings and it adding up to $65 to $70 worth of stuff. Who’s making the profit there Martin. This is the sort of stuff I am talking about. They might say it 100% pay back but its really 85% with the 15%(optional) cut by the Tds. That brings it 70% pay back.
THE TRURTH WILL SET YOU FREE
100% pay back at list price is fair /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif and no need to lower entry fees that just making the sport go backwards. Always look forward! PRO 2004

The last thing I want to do is listen to self-acclaimed past sandbaggers who played for the plastic, but who are now living on the straight and narrow, preaching to others who simply want their entry fees going to their division.

I never played for the merchandise...so I can spout off all I want to.

Those who agree with Martin can gladly feel free to make all the donations their hearts desire...to whatever freaking division they like. I'm sure when they do it...they won't particularly care for someone else telling them where their money should go.

AGAIN. There has been NO talk of this issue on this board for quite awhile...a span that covers many tournaments.

It is stupid...to start talking about "greedy" players and the BIG problem that exists...when it crops up a couple times a year!

It could be a case of a few "greedy" players. It could be the case of perrenial favorite KC and it's ARGUABLE payouts of the past. It could be a case of mistaken payout ala Pittsburgh last year. Whatever it is...it is not reflective of a problem which permeates the amateur ranks of the PDGA or representative of the great organizers all around the country who make participants more than happy at their events.

Morons.

And let's get something straight...

There aren't a bunch of personal ads in the mags asking for organizers to throw tournaments for people.

There are a [*****]-load of ads in the mags...of organizers TRYING to APPEAL to players all around the country...in an effort to get them to come play their event. Pros and Ams alike.

I know many of you see this as a public service...and in many ways it is...but make no mistake...

When organizers TRY to get people to attend their events...there is a RESPONSIBILITY to the people who come from far and near to attend these events.

All the more reason to "cherish" those events which make participants jump for joy...and all the more reason to accept some criticism of events which leave some participants wondering why the payout seemed low or undervalue.

And by far...over the last 6 months...almost every tournament that has been threaded on this board has received high praise from ams and pros alike.

[gnduke]

Another point, Am Payouts (and entry fees) won't go down quickly because that is where the money to run the tournament comes from. The bigger tha Am payout, the bigger the pot of money to cover expenses and possibly pocket.

I just have a problem with sponsored merchandise ending up in the Player packages at retail value.

I think the player package should completely ponsored except for either a T-Shirt or Tourney stamped disc. Valued at cost (if the value is to be deducted from the entry fees).

For the TD report put it in at retail. That helps you reach over 100% payout.

MARTIN [*****], T-SHIRTS ROCK!!!!!

/msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

Whazzup Vato Loco?!

Support the sport not yourselves????? How is supporting professional disc golfers supporting our sport? Do we need to send checks payable to Tiger &amp; Annika to support ball golf? Hey, lets all send checks to Tim Duncan &amp; Kevin Garnett to support basketball. Supporting pros is not supporting the sport! Support would be donating money to buy new baskets for a new course, or buying discs to give to Scout troops, or running free entry/guaranteed free disc minis for new players. Having an elite group of players make a living off this game does nothing to grow the sport. The PGA did not spawn golf as the #1 recreation activity in the U.S. The game of golf and the masses of people playing it spawned the PGA.

[jpg420]

tee shirts [*****] i got second place at the orbital enhancements tournament in jacksonville fl, in the advanced division and got $135 in tee shirts all smalls and mediums, i wear XXL, so tee shirts [*****] joe pg

disc golf is da way it is,theres no changing(?)
TOURnaments,clubs,TD or who ever just need to stop
shafting da ams.

don't advertise what you can't deliver!

[tdwriter]

For those of you who believe Ams are getting shafted by the PDGA, I have just two words for you. <FONT COLOR="0000ff">Southern</FONT><FONT COLOR="ff0000"> Nationals</FONT>

Of course, these tournaments are only held in the south, but entry fees range from $27 to $40, depending on the event, and ams are paid 40-50 percent, mostly in plastic.

In one event, I missed winning a recliner (donated by a sponsor) by one stroke.

I haven't said anything about the payout in the PDGA events I've been to because I don't want to offend the TD's, because I know them all personally.

I will say that SNDG events pay the best, plus the pros get decent treatment as well.

I don't think am players will be willing to drive for 2-4 hours to play for trophies. I know I won't.

Judging from what I've seen this year, I doubt I'll be hitting too many more PDGA events either. Besides, there's enough SNDG events within a 5 hour range to keep me busy all year.

Ams, don't put up with it, don't support events that mistreat you. That's the only way to deal with it. RwC

not shafted by da pdga just people or who ever

[neonnoodle]

"Ams, don't put up with it, don't support events that mistreat you. That's the only way to deal with it. RwC"

No it's not. It's just one. Another way to deal with it is to run your own events and learn what is really involved.

TDs and local clubs make money by selling discs mostly. This money is used to pay for newsletters, poleholes, tee pads, tournaments, and everything else YOU enjoy. Don't you want them to raise moneys? If you are getting fair value and they are raising much needed funds to put back into the sport then there really is no issue.

I can't think of a single TD making a killing off of running events, or taking the 15% allowed by the PDGA. I have seen pretty poor payouts, both Pro and Am, but it had more to do with lack of any sponsorship while still paying for full event expenses. And even those TDs don't deserve the amount of ungracious whining going on here on this board. More times than not these guys are losing their shirts.

Perhaps there are some TDs out there taking unfair advantage of ams, but before you go running their names and events names into the mud, you had better be dam sure you know for certain that they are on the take. People have done this same sort of whining before only to find out afterward that nothing crooked had taken place. Just be extra careful is all I'm saying. It is a VERY RARE FEW that is willing to put up with the amount of BS necessary to make an event happen. Appreciation should come first.

If I am wrong about your particular area, then you really need to get involved and work it out with those TDs and local clubs, but if you just want to sit comfortably from the uninformed sidelines and hurl mud then I can easily understand that those organizers have as little use for your whining as I do here.

Again, just be really careful. Talk one on one with the TD AFTERWARDS. Don't get in his/her face during the event. I can assure you that you will draw back a nub even from the nicest of TDs. And bringing it up here is not much better. Don't beat around the bush! If there is a problem go to the source!

The ADGA is a great idea. Really. Now when are you going to step up and make it happen?

BS. The Southern Nationals pays no better...if as well as many PDGA events in region 11.

And another thing Nick Kight never sees is an amateur making a killing off of the sport. Maybe some legendary multi-basket stories that can rival some legendary "organization puts $20,000 in bank account from running tournaments".

All of you taking sides on this issue are idiots.

And appreciation should not come first. Not if you're getting fleeced.

And Nick Kight can stuff his banner that he waves until organizers come clean with ALL the numbers.

If you people want to get serious about this...then support a service charge at tournaments. A fee that goes directly to the club and/or organizer. Support fees that go directly to the pro purse.

But until then...save me your WHINING about people questioning payouts as if it's an affront to the goodness of mankind.

Nick,
Once again you step up to the plate like someone in authority or like the expert mediator hired by the TD's. Are you sure you know more than some of the people speaking out? You say they are assuming too much and make sure they have the facts, but you are the one assuming they are not informed. Once again a fine example of people thinking that amature players are idiots, or at least thinking you are smarter than they are. You jump to the defense of tournament payouts when your post follows your predessor who stated they should be grateful to pay $20.00 to attract the open pro's. Do you feel the same way? If not then I think you owe everyone speaking out an appology because now it is obvious they were not just whining. I have news for you, appreciation should come "afterwards." You earn appreciation it is not handed out for attendance. I also noticed you do not know all the circumstances behind these players frustration yet you are slinging mud at them. I respect their speaking out even if they learn later that they were misguided, more than your slinging mud at them without knowing their circumstances. The ADGA is a good idea, thank you for saying so. Have you stepped up to the plate with every idea you have come up with in your life? Just because someone has a great idea does not mean they have the time and resources to implement it. So I guess you would believe they should just quit thinking because they cannot step up every time.

First off I will say that I am AGAINST Td's TAKING money from ams to boost pro purses.

Unfortunatly, I think people are just gonna have to know that when they go to a C-Tier event that they may only get paid back 75%, and 85% for B-tier etc...

It would be nice for Td's to make it known before hand what % of the entry fees they are going to payout. If some of the money that goes to the pro purse is going to come from the ams, then let that be known before hand.

I have no problem helping the pro payout as long as I know I am going to do it. I just wish more TD's would make it clear what there intentions are.

I can't believe it. I agree with Nick. I'm going golfing, that's enough of these shenanigans. I do agree that some payouts have been ridiculously low so that the pros could have a great payout. I agree this is wrong. But I don't agree that Am winners should be paid so high while their brethren, who never cash, never get anything but also never beotch. I've got plenty of friends that never cash in Open or ams that also don't complain and keep coming to tournaments. How does that work.
Hey Jerald, hows it going, I guess you must still be playing but not in Open??

Lance,
I agree with you/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif
If I never cashed again in my life I would compete. I am addicted to competition and disc golf. However, it would not make it right to now take advantage of me because I will keep coming.

[keithjohnson]

By wwworker on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 01:14 pm:
if you new how much was taken from Am Worlds and funneled to Pro Worlds (and hushed up) you'd have a fit.


NOTHING WAS TAKEN FROM AM WORLDS AND FUNNELED TO PRO WORLDS.....if that was a joke...YOU LEFT OFF THE SMILEY FACE

i don't want to have another go round of explaning stuff to people that they think is true.....but is not.....keith

russ....you obviously didn't make it to any of the supertours or am worlds that i ran as you would know i lost my *** on everyone of them(with full knowledge) to make nice payouts and bring people back......if the hotel fiasco hadn't happened at am worlds i might have almost made my money back for all those years...but being the nice guy i was i lost 3 grand instead(over 10 grand in 7 years) and i still had killer players packages and payouts with NO MONEY GOING TO PROS!!! in any of those years(especially am worlds)

5k doesn't ring a bell?

[tdwriter]

Nick, I HAVE run tournaments, assisted in running tournaments and played in numerous events so I know what is involved. I've covered the expenses for my events then tried to break even and still provide a decent payout.

RwC

OK, OK, as a fellow XXL'er, I woudl agree, that if your payout was ALL t-shirts, that would [*****] arse......1 plus plastic, is the way I like it. (If I even cash)

And if its not your size, having the TD let you swap it, is the best way to keep your players happy.

You definately got shafted, on a 2nd place payout....

[tdwriter]

Keith, chill, I wasn't referring to your event. In fact, I've never attended one of your events. In fact, I only began touring heavily in September and through the winter and spring.

I've played am and I spent six years or so donating to the pro and master divisions without ever cashing so I don't need any lectures about "playing for the love of the game." That's one of the reasons I play, but no the only one.

I'm in advanced master now because the PDGA allowed me to move back.

I'm not saying all PDGA events are bad, far from it. The ones I attended, at least two, ran very smoothly, had players packs, four rounds, and were professionaly run. One of them paid the ams very generously in my opinion. It just depends on who is involved in that part of the event.

But I agree with the original poster that overall, the PDGA seems to like to use the am purse to supplement the Pros. I'd just as soon see 15 percent go to the pros, leave out the player's pack, food, etc and simply pay back 85 percent to the am field.

And Randy, or whoever, a full disclosure of expenses is a great idea. A lot of work, but a great idea. The td in the last PDGA event I attended had it all on a laptop at the event so you could see where everything was going. Can't recall if it was posted somewhere or not. RwC

randy wimm. have you ever been to a SN event?

Nick, I hate to say it but I agree with everything you said.

Randy, your wrong. There are plenty of Ams that have taken advantage of the greed factor in Disc Golf. It is unfortunate but I know of at least 3 Am or former Am players that have won plenty of baskets and other stuff (8 baskets and about 400 discs, 5 baskets and over 200 discs, 3 baskets and ??? discs). If you are an Am and you think your being fleeced because the payout isn't as great as you would like it to be then go do something else. You are welcome to quit at any time.

There are other expenses that a tournament has to meet that most players don't bother to think about. Advertising in DGWN, ice for water coolers, score cards, leader board cards, phone calls, pencils, minis etc. etc. Do you expect the TD to pay for all of the expenses for the tournament out of their own pockets?

This arguement amazes me. I am going to play in a Racquetball tournament this weekend and there has never been an issue like this in R-ball. Am entry fees are used to pay for food, beer, players packages and boost the Pro payout. Ams only get a trophy, thats it, no product.

The are no Ams in Disc Golf. If you have ever received anything of any redeemable value at the end of an event based on how well you played against the rest of the players in your division you are not an Am. We may classify you as an Am but you are definitely not an Am.

I have been at an event where the winner of the Adv. won a basket and a stack of discs. He then sold the basket in the parking lot for a little more than what first in the Open division won. So, the Adv. winner took home more cash than first in the Open and he still got a stack of plastic as well.

Quit your whinning and play!!!!

[neonnoodle]

Good! Then you should know first hand that you are not out to rip off anyone. That there are expenses involved that have to be paid, and that the sale of discs, whether direct or through value as prizes, pays for most of those expenses. All I am saying is that before anyone belly aches about payouts, especially at events or here on the bored, that they give the TD the benefit of the doubt and speak with them about it in a non-confrontational constructive manner.

If you find objectionable the use of those funds raised between the cost of players packages and prize discs and their retail value to finance our events then you are asking for a complete and total change in the manner our events have always been run and funds raised for local club activities (including putting in courses). If PDGA standards are followed this should never be an issue. Percentages of payout to entry fees are laid out.

On a personal note, I absolutely think that payouts to the amateur class competitors should be greater than 100% in (realistic) retail value. Funds for the event and other local initiatives can still be raised even with such a policy.

If the point of this discussion is to institute stricter guidelines for disclosing the financial details of PDGA events I think that is a good idea. If it is, as it appears to be, a witch hunt for rogue TDs with no proof of indiscretion, then it is wrong. Plain and simple.

Appreciation for the hard work of volunteer organizers has never been high, but this may represent an all-time low. Again, just be careful, most TDs are hanging from a thread as far as whether or not to chuck it all, if you have a question bring it straight to them at a less pressure filled time (not at the event) and in a constructive manner.

They are like key branches on trees around your course. It takes only a moment to lop them off, but years and years to grow them back.

[neonnoodle]

My "Good" was directed to Russ not Kirk. Though Kirk is money in his post.

Nick, I didn't think it was possible for us to agree on anything...lmao

[tdwriter]

Kirk, Then we should all play for cash in strict ratings based divisions with increasinly higher entry fees.

I still think playing for trophies only would turn off a lot of am players, but what do I know.

RwC

[tdwriter]

Nick, I wanted the players to be happy and not lose my rear in the process. Unlike some tds, I don't have thousands of dollars to donate to a disc golf tournament. I have a family that comes first. I did, however, put a lot of time and effort into the event and ran it with the help of my wife and a couple of volunteers.

Our local TD has put in hundreds of dollars of his own money over the years to make events work, as have other volunteers who have bought supplies, etc., for the course or for events. RwC

[neonnoodle]

Only those players who should be playing in cash divisions anyway...

[neonnoodle]

Actually I have no issue with a division of players playing for large amounts of prizes.

I do however have an issue with them being labelled "Amateur".

Gamblers and Carnies...

[neonnoodle]

Kirk, don't feel bad. Everyone comes around to my way of thinking eventually... /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

phffft. in your dreams yes man.

just because someone agrees with you on a no brainer issue, does not imply they will agree with most of your fertilizer.

[neonnoodle]

Well, those with two brain cells to rub together that is...

Nick, I doubt that I will agree with you on every issue. There have been a couple of times when I wondered what planet you were on.

The interesting thing is you are not nearly as abrasive in person as you appear to be on the Disgusting Board.

And, just for the record, I do owe you a steak dinner.

Kirk

As an Am Master, I could care less about winning plastic or any other merchandise. I do like the T-shirts in the player packages, but I'm really there to win a trophy and get PDGA and state series points. I like the competition and the camaraderie of the group I play against. I have a great time and that's what it's really about anyway!

[marcace]

If everyone could have that kind of atittude, there would be more winners in Disc Golf!!!

ayup...

if you are too focused on "what is in it for me" you are being downright _______________.

good point steve.

[neonnoodle]

Never say never...

And even as a Pro player I agree with what Steve said, I don't attend tournaments for big payouts (LOL) but for the reasons Steve stated. Though I'd be happier if the entry fees were a little lower. They make most A and B Tiers off limits to me.

[terrycalhoun]

I'm an Am for life. I don't and won't play for money except fun side bets in casual play. Will be going to Pro Worlds in August - for *fun* - and if I happen to "cash" that money will get pushed right on down to the next player.

I'm happy playing only for trophies. The mentality that separates Pros from Ams, for me, is what they play for - not how good they are. If you're playing for "payout" then you are playing with a Pro mentality and good for you.

One of the many issues facing us as an organization is a past that has created the monster of Ams who expect payouts. At a time where we are finally growing a *real* class of professionals, that's creating a huge amount of dissonance.

I'm playing Advanced Am at the DGLO in two weeks and I have also been involved among the 30 volunteers who are putting in, altogether, something like 1,000 hours of time to make it happen. Would I prefer to pay a reg fee of $25 instead of $80 and be playing for a trophy - you bet! But, no, we have to have players packs with two great lunch tickets, two great discs, a mini, a towel, and who knows what else PLUS a "payout" in funny money where the top players can buy stacks of whatever plastic or other merch they want. Shees!

Hmm. Maybe we should "bill" the players $10/hr for the volunteers' time. That would be about $50 per player. Yeah! That way we can use the $30 left over from the reg fee for direct costs like trophies, cards, pencils, banners, etc., and get rid of the players' packages and the payouts. Cool.

[Dick]

i agree with steve. i like competing with others my level and having fun. i like a nice players pack with hopefully a tshirt and/or a custom disc and maybe a trophy for the top winners. reduce am fees to cover THEIR SHARE of expenses and retail value of the players pack so the club can make a couple bucks. if it's a charity fundraiser for the club, let me know how much is going that way and i'm happy. then just let us play...otherwise i seem to have as much fun playing with the locals for tagging rights and 'walking the dog'

[Dick]

p.s. if they don't want to play for trophies, let them play pro...

I say we keep it rite here on the board so people know we mean business. Keeping this stuff out in the open will keep people on the strait and narrow. Up forward pay out sheets would be great so the ams can decide before shelling out crap loads of money to go to the event. That way they know they will be playing in an AM Friendly event. Put it on the flyers "AM FREINDLY"
Did you guy know there are ton of am sports that pay good. Fishing, Pool, Tennis, Squash Ball that is just a few of them. Well I added Squash Ball /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif Ams do win product. That’s where the Pros and sponsors should be investing time and Products. More Ams mean more up and coming Pros. More money and a more family friendly place to be. As my kids grow do I want to pay a few hundred dollars to travel to an event that isn't Am friendly? I don't think to many people would. So let’s get real. Let’s invest into the sport and the Ams.
Allot of people think that I'm doing this for selfish reasons. They can’t be more wrong! I am turning pro in a few events, so I could care less for what people think. I am standing my ground on this SUBJUCT. INVEST IN YOUR AMS They are the Future of disc golf and the Pro PURSE
JB

More Ams Means More People. As the Ams divisions grow so does the family interest grows. That means more moms, dads, brothers, and sisters. Look now you have more of a volunteer pool to pick from. Stand back and look. A mother is a great prospect for VOLIUNEER or maybe she might get involved in the activities. Oh my god look the Pro field is starting grow, more money, more SPONSORS. LOOK LOOK
JUST OPEN YOUR EYES
Its very clear /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

I do "invest" in the Ams. By designing and installing courses. Lobbying Park &amp; Rec in multiple cities and states. Volunteering for the PDGA Competition Committee. Volunteering to run sanctioned and non-sanctioned events here in Raleigh. Volunteering to take on the RADL President position when no else wanted it. Doing clinics for Boy Scouts, Cub Scouts, Brownies, Girl Scouts, YMCA, Boys and Girls Clubs, local schools, etc. There is more but I am sure you get my point.

I don't believe boosting payout is the best way to "invest" in the Ams. It breeds greed and dissension.

Am entry fees should go to a good players pack, trophies, all tournament expenses, food and possibly a players party.

The side effect of low or no payouts to the Ams would be that the more dominant Adv players will have an incentive to move up. Our current system encourages players to stay Am.

In the case of Disc Golf, greed is not good.

the sad things is we am's line up every weekend for the same o' same o' we am's need are own amature disc golf association

[jconnell]

I'm still waiting to hear some specifics from Jeff of exactly what type of fleecing has taken place that is getting him all bent out of shape.

If his complaint is that Ams need bigger, bolder, sponsor-padded payouts all around, then what he's asking for is PRO treatment. Play PRO if that's what you want.

If it's a specific incident(s) of fleecing ams (meaning that "payouts" are not up to the PDGA guidelines), then identify them so we can judge for ourselves and then assign blame and outrage where it is merited.

I posted on the Shoot the Breeze thread earlier, and it seems that's where the same voices began their cries. If that event is the spark of this debate, it's totally unmerited, as I stated on that thread.

This generic cry of foul means nothing unless it can be backed up with evidence beyond "I didn't get paid what I deserve". So, please, present some real cases.

Again, if you expect to get "paid", then don't play AMATEUR divisions.

--Josh

[terrycalhoun]

Actually, there is something Ams who want bigger Am "payouts" can do - make calls to and on potential sponsors. That's the one job we usually lack volunteers for, because it's the toughest for most people to do.

Go ahead Jeff, and others, seriously. Start going door to door in your town and ask merchants for sponsorships and ask those merchants to *specify* that their sponsorship (dollars or products) go to the Am payout only.

No club's going to turn down sponsorship dollars just because they are specified for Ams - and it's something *you* can make happen!

That's the one job we usually lack volunteers for, because it's the toughest for most people to do. extremely difficult expecially when you can easily get the sponsor money from the ams

[terrycalhoun]

Easier to post on this Board than to raise funds or organize an event or make format decisions or calculate a payout.

Didn't this discussion begin with an AM asking that AMs be paid there money back and not have it TAKEN without letting the players know? I mean it really isn't that much to ask for. Just tell the AMs before hand what your intentions are and then let them decide if they want to play, seems pretty simple.

Like I said before I have no problem donating to the pros or donating to help something else related to DG, just let it be a DONATION and don't just take it.

[jackinkc]

Good thread, started by the wrong reasons. Wish that I could say more.

Format decisions and payouts are cake/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif Getting sponsors on the other hand/msgboard/images/clipart/sad.gif

Maybe sponsor shoud be aquired before payout is calculated. Seems like the pdga is shooting itself in the foot. If you don't have the cash to payout, then don't make the payout so large. Sobeit if some tourning pro doesn't swing into town

Josh Connell How about the sponsors didn’t they give anything the event. It was a B tier event. Did the listed sponsors Discraft donate to am division I’m curious to what was given? They must have given cash because the ams didn't see it. Where did the entry fees go to, pro divisions? I know that company with that much clout does treat their Ams well. That’s one reason we went. Sponsor should pay for Players packs. Why should the ams be forest to pay for the players’ packages? Yes I will play pro and I will still feel the same.
JB

[neonnoodle]

See Jeff, now you are being a dhead. Openness is one thing, being a dhead is another. You're not really trying to get an honest answer, you are trying to publicly lash out at a respected and hard working TD, otherwise you'd just drop him an email or better yet call him directly.

Grow up!

What should or shouldn't be done doesn't matter as long as the people putting up the money are given a choice before they pay their entry. It is very simple to put on a flier or a message board post that you will be paying out atleast XX% to the AMS. That way they know before they pay and decide for themselves if it is worth it to them.

The excuse "Well I didn't know what percent I was going to pay" doesn't work because there is a minimum so, if you don't know for sure, then let the potential participants know that it will atleast be the minimum of 75% for C-tier etc....

In Disc Golf the name Am should be changed to "Pros playing for merchandise" or "PPFM".

It amazes the tournament Racquetball players (both Am and Pro) that we award so much stuff to the Ams. I have been asked how we can do that and still call them amateur players. I still haven't been able to give them an acceptable answer to that question.

[jconnell]

Jeff,

It's pretty clear that you don't know how Discraft and most other "sponsorship" works. They (the disc manufacturers) offer deals to TDs for orders of tourney discs. These deals are not hand-outs, they are PURCHASES. In turn, the TD puts those tourney discs into the am players' package and pays for the discs with the am entry fees. Any profit from the discs is used to cover tournament expenses, to pay for any extra discs not distributed (with bulk orders, there's generally always product left over at the end), and in some cases, to pad the pro payout. That's how Discraft "sponsors" the event and cash is added to the pro payout.

Everybody gets something on the deal: ams get nice merchandise, pros get a little extra cake, and TDs can cover their expenses. It really is a nice little system where everyone wins, including Discraft, if you ask me.

To cry and whine about it as an am rip-off after the fact really makes you sound greedy. There's no other way to say it.

--Josh

[jackinkc]

If everyone pre-registered this information would be available, until everyone signs up at least a week in advance, you will never be able to accurately post perspective payouts. Don't you understand that? Or do we close registration a week out. Your choice.

Nick should I not speak at all about any of these other comments? Or should I wait patiently for my answer? /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif Which there doesn't seem to be./msgboard/images/clipart/sad.gif Its a problem that needs to be addressed

[jackinkc]

Oh, BTW, most other recreational sports, do NOT have sponsorships pay for everything. Golf, softball, basketball, flag football, every event that I have been to, you have to pay an entry fee, and usually do not get a bunch of stuff back. I figure it goes for the expense of organizing and allow me the chance to have some fun.
FUN, that is what you should be playing for, and the competitiveness, otherwise, if you think more prizes should happen, go Pro, get better, or bring us more Corporate sponsors, but if you do that, then make sure that all illegal activities are off the course, how many disc golfers would that get rid of? How many am's how many pros?

That discussion will go on until we are large enough to want to be covered with all our faults.

Jack, that is still no reason that a TD cannot post a minimum % ahead of time.

Yes, I understand that until registration is closed and all the money is counted that an exact number cannot be given, but a minimum can ALWAYS be posted.

so it is just a decision to go pro, and I have been pro this hole time, and just decided to be a whiny am. Thanks for showing me the light!
you should not be paying to have fun! you play to have fun. and this is not about prizes, maybe about spreading the fruit around to everyone, like all these am sponsors as someone stated above. roflmao

[jackinkc]

I disagree. Minimums are the guidelines, you can look them up here, there is no need to post. If you are that worried about the payout prior to the event, you are playing in the wrong division.

Too many intangibles happen at events.

[jackinkc]

My daughters soccer league is sponsored by many local vendors. I still have to pay for her to play, I think that it is wrong. They play for a trophy at the end of the year, should I ask the other 90 kids parents if we should go and complain to the local YMCA? (just kidding, I do not mind paying for her to play)

Same premise folks. It costs money to run these events, sponsors donations need to be used as the people running the events see fit.

Pros pay cash, play for cash. Disc companies sell discs, TD's buy discs, many TDs buy too many discs....Some buy too many for one event, then give away as prizes for other events. Discs are discs, they can be used no matter what logo is on them, other items need to be used today to get the name out.

You are missing my point.

If a minimum is posted prior to a player signing up then they cannot complain about what the payout was because they knew before hand.

Yes they can come on to this site and search around to find that info but wouldn't it be easier to just type the words "atleast XX% to ams" on the flyers, so that there is no complaints?

[jackinkc]

I don't think so, but if that were the case, I would post absolute minimums, and what were to happen if the amounts changed from the time that I made my flyer, in April for my June event, and that was the deciding factor that someone saw in my April 10th flyer, top 33% to be paid, then I get another good sponsor, and it becomes the top 50% to be paid. Now, I have lost a person that feels they could not place in the top 1/3, but could in the top half, and they don't see me or the flyer again? I lose people. You don't attend a fun event.....It can only cause troubles. Know that most Td's do this for the love of the game, because we are not flying our helicopters and limos around from course to course on your hard earned dollar.

Now the pro events, we might, but not the ams....
j/k /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

I understand your point, but I think that it is the wrong thing to be thinking from an Am's perspective, I am always more concerned with what goodies I might get in the players pack, over what the payout is, but that is because I am usually in the bottom 1/3. If you look at my rating, I am still qualified as an Intermediate, should I head on down and win events an intermediate now? How is that fair? It is done though......

I see why you think it would not be a problem, but I see the problems everyday as I just try to get people to join the club locally for $15, what do I get for that......and the conversations go on and on, and on.......

Not the % i was talking about. I was speaking of the amount of money that would be paid back to the ams not the amount of ams that would be paid.

If they know that atleast 75% of there money is going to be paid right back to their division then they cannot complain when their division gets paid back 75% of what their division put in, is what I am saying.

If all TD's would say on the flyer that they would be paying atleast the minimum of 75%(c-tier) of the entry fees back, then there would be no reason for a complaint because the players knew before they paid.

[neonnoodle]

Again, publicly announcing the finances of a disc golf tournament is probably a good idea, as are posting minimum payout percentages.

That does not make a witch hunt, such as this, on this Mess Bored any less juvenile...

And Jeff, you got your answer, but you are obviously not satisfied until you do even further damage.

[jackinkc]

Am’s don't get money, now I am confused to death. All the money Td's get go to the event, any extra goes to the club or group running the event. How often is that though? We strive to not lose more than $1000 every year in our event.

There are again too many intangibles to accurately and honestly give that number prior to the event. Plus regardless of what someone says on the flyer, someone somewhere is going to complain that they feel that this event short changed them in the payout, when "payout" is not just in the prize category, but also the player’s packages, and other items. Of course we could lower fees, and then make you bring your own scorecards, make you come with spray paint, put everyone to work an hour before the event as the "course preparedness" crew, then start the round, that would save huge bucks.

I am being sarcastic obviously. I just think that it is truly impossible to do given the clientele that we deal with in disc golf. We are not all type A people doing the work, and we are not all type A players.

All events are as strong as the group that puts it together. All complaints come from people that feel cheated, you can not, make everyone happy, and you can tick everyone off. It is the good folks running the events decision to make it as good as they can, that is all we can do until everyone else steps up, and brings sponsorship with them to each event, and contributes to the bottom line of each event, which I do not see anytime soon.

As for the flyers, again, that is right here if it is C-tier, B-tier, A-tier, you know what the total payout should be per the PDGA policies, if it is not followed, then complain, and don't attend the event the next year, or ask what happened!

Thanks,

Jack

Please don't confuse my comments with any witch hunt. I was just offering up what I thought would be an easy way to stop complaining or whining before it ever started.

[solberg]

Ok, no one took my bait earlier about taking money away from Pro's and giving to the AM's.. so what about this:

I run Leagues 2 night a week. Last night I had 50 people sign up and play. Entry fees are: pro $5, Advanced $5 Amature $3, this includes the ace pool.
Attendance was:
12 Pro Players
13 Advanced Players
25 Amature Players

so by most of the posts above say I should give the pros some of the Am money. Hmm, I wonder how many of the AM's would continue to come back to play ($2 entry fee for thier division)or how many may think, those dang Pro's think they rule they world maybe I should go and play Tennis?

The seceret to Growing the Pro and Advanced Divisions (and more PDGA Membership) is to get the AM division full and happy to compete.

This is my 10th Year running Leagues and am very glad to say I pay out 100% of every entry fee I collect for each division and I pay for all the score cards, score sheets, Pencils and Pens, Postings and even throw in Closest to the hole prizes out of my pocket.

Grow the Amatures and Grow the sport, that is where the PDGA fails, getting the TD's to understand this important issue.

Jack, money=amount paid in merch. You know if the INT division entries equal $1000 and there is a 100% payback then all the INT players winnings will add up to $1000 worth of merch. Still confused?

You are not talking to someone that doesn't know how to run events. I have spent countless hours trying to get sponsorship for tourneys and countless hours volunteering for tourneys. I am not whining about anything and I am not just some uninformed complainer.

I do understand that people can come to this site to find out specifics on minimum payouts for each tier, but not everyone has that luxury or not everyone knows that they can do that.

Every tourney that I have been involved in has had on the fliers and on every messege board what the minimum % of entry fees is going to the payout. So you cannot tell me that it can't be done.

Bottom line is that if it says it on the fliers then any complaints are unnecessary.

[jackinkc]

At leagues we take money from every division for the club. It is a simple taxation. We pay out at the rate of people entered. but we take I think a $1 or $1.50/head it is $5 for league, and a $1 for ace fund, if you are a club member it is a dollar discount.

We have a league night every night of the week in KC, and on Monday and Thursdays we have 2 leagues.

We had 40 people play league last night, I was not at Wednesday's, on Tuesday there were about 32 people.....that is how we generate money locally to help upkeep on our courses that get an over abundant usage on them. If you are not taking anything away from the players to continually maintain and build on the existing courses, how are you making the sport grow?

Someone shows up for the first time to play, and the course is trashed, will they come back? If they have to wait an hour to tee off, and 5-10 minutes before next tee, because you dont have enough courses, how many of those people will come back?

Just thoughts, as a club we are not in the business to make money, but we are in the business to maintain, and continue course improvements, and promotion of the sport. That does not really mean at tournaments, as much as it does at a local level, that is truly where the sport will grow, then if those people that are introduced to the game want to raise the competitiveness, we have places and events for them to attend. Schools, Police athletic leagues, summer camps, presentations.......

The sport grows with each of us, read the articel in DGWN about how we are the ambassadors of our sport. We truly are the sport, and once that is realized we will grow as well.

scott is correct in can be done.

toad the BR TD is an example of an excellent td... in the same "type" that scott describes.

booyea.

[neonnoodle]

I applaud your efforts in running a league, those are great for growing a grassroots player base. It is however quite different, particularly financially from running a PDGA Major, National Tour, Super Tour, or B and below tier event.

I tend to agree with Jack that posting payout percentages prior to an event is a set up for problems. Still, if you can't manage 100% retail payout to the Am Class I suspect you are over extending your event financially. I know TDs of Am Only PDGAs that when asked if they wanted some cash sponsorship they answered, "Why? I can hardly get rid of it all as is!" This is a major event in our region to boot.

This is not a question of the Pros taking advantage of the Ams, as some here would like you to believe. It is simple disc golf economics. Several High Profile Tournament Directors have clearly and completely laid out for everyone how it works at their events and in their local clubs.

If you have a problem with it, go back and read Rhett's first post.

[jackinkc]

100% does not mean 100% of entry fees as prize payouts. That is the difference that I think we may have. I view it as total field payout, and it sounds like you think it should be total winning payout. The PDGA does not state that you need to payout 100% to the winning participants, it is clear that it expects that to be close to 40-50%, the remaining 50-60% is what goes into the players pack, food, water, value to each participant at 100%. Does that make sense?

I can see why you think that way, I also feel that the way that I view it is better, as it gets more items in more players hands, which is truly what all ams need.

are there any pro only tournaments? besides pro worlds which is sponsored by ams

Nick this is not a witch hunt. My intent was to stop this problem that has gone on to long. Yes I do think it is a problem. But a lot of people are to scared to say anything. Well! I'm not scared.
I am a little concerned that mature people like your selves, can't see what I’m talking about.

[neonnoodle]

Here you go: (A personal favorite of mine)

By Nick Kight on Saturday, February 15, 2003 - 06:54 am:


You want the truth. YOU WANT THE TRUTH!

You can't handle the truth!

Son, we live in a world that has disc golf events. And those disc golf events have to be tded by men with knowledge. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Whiner? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for the whiners I dress down and you curse the organizers. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: That whiner's getting a verbal whooping, while tragic, probably gets things done. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, gets things done.

You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me at that disc golf event. You need me there.

We use words like pre-registration, rules, bring it in...we use these words as the backbone to a life spent defending something. You use 'em as a punchline.

I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very disc golf events I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it. I'd prefer you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a dam what you think you're entitled to.

/msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

o my.

nick has now started quoting himself.

it must be something, being a legend in your own mind.

:^P

My stance is that I think a TD should post,or write on the flier, if they are going to pay back(IN SOME WAY) less then 100% of entry fees.

I think that it takes advantage of the ams by not letting them know that ahead of time. If they know that is the case before hand then they have a choice as to whether they want to accept that and play, or not. People tend to get annoyed when they find out that there money was TAKEN and went somewhere that they didn't want it to go. This would be a non-issue if they knew ahead of time and made there own choice.

[jackinkc]

I personally was wondering if it was the NY Times writing it, or if they found that text somewhere and just slightly alterd it. Seems I can remember another Jack saying something along those lines.....Where did that guy go? Golfing, because he's not at the games now is he....
/msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

"People tend to get annoyed when they find out that there money was TAKEN and went somewhere that they didn't want it to go."

Or it goes somewhere and NO ONE knows where it went.

i guess i look at it differently than some of you.

i played adv mast for about 1.5 years.

prior to that (for 2 years) i kinda blew off playing events because i so completely enjoy casual golf and i kinda had the mind set that being too competitive about it kinda takes the fun out of it all...

(i play against the course. not the people in my division. that is merely my mindset)

so anyway, motives for playing aside, i started kicknbutt abit too badly in adv mast (in the region where i was playing) so i moved up to play against folks that were in my skill set range.

payout wasn't (and is not) the motive for me--

but then i ain't an NT type-- (more power to those who are!!)

i don't expect to win, but often do. if i do cash it is icing on the cake.

i enjoy tourneys for the folks, not the icing.

a certain % of Ams have a sugar buzz, some of them get so much icing.

casual golf rocks. small random doubles is more fun than a free vacation to mecca. well, that is a bit strong-- but ya get the point.

folks that are too oriented towards "what is in it for me" kinda take the fun out of it.

maybe it would be better stated; it gets old...

[jackinkc]

FUN FUN FUN, that is why I play, oh yeah and to mett cool people that I can say hi to a few times a year when we step up and visit somewhere other than home, or they play here. Now if I could just get those pesty pros to think that way!
/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Jack,

Just wondering where it is stated that, "The PDGA does not state that you need to payout 100% to the winning participants, it is clear that it expects that to be close to 40-50%, the remaining 50-60% is what goes into the players pack, food, water, value to each participant at 100%."

Not trying to cause any problems, but I checked the Tour Sanctioning Agreement and didn't see any mention of it there. I just thought I would try and do a little research on the subject just for sh*ts and giggles. Personally I really don't give a d*mn, because if I ever played a tournament and thought I got stiffed I just wouldn't go back. Hasn't happened yet, but you never know.

There is a fundamental problem meandering through some of todays posts...

Some people like to talk about why money needs to be raised...where it needs to go...and if this is accomplished...it justifies the means.

Simply not true. One could use large charity organizations for a good example. Few would argue that the efforts of MDA are more important than the furtherance of disc golf.

While people give much money to the MDA...GIVEN is the operative word. Even in the light of GIVEN...it is not unusual for people to question how much of the money is going where. In fact...one would have to agree that the organization should be held accountable for how it takes in money...and where the money goes.

Of course...it's easy to say that all the money goes to the cause in one way or another. And we all know there are many expenses. But it is hardly unusual to expect some improprieties when people start handling money.

So there are watchodog groups...many are labeled witch hunters.

Now...if an organization in disc golf wants to raise money for what they deem as the TRUE cause...fine. But the fact is...they should do it above board. They should either ask for donations...or charge participants an amount that is known to everyone.

Does everyone need to do this? No. There are organizers who have the trust of the players. They have earned it in many different ways.

Then there are the other organizers. The ones who are downright famous for low payouts. And you want to know something funny??? These organizers and their supporters are some of the most vocal about "greedy ams".

Fact is...these organizers are the ones who are making money. Ohhhhhhh...not for themselves. No...these people are on the high trail. They make it for the furtherance of disc golf. And believe me...they know what's best for disc golf.

Now...here's the kicker. I think it's great when people can make money organizing disc golf tournaments. I think it's great if they use it to take a vacation. I think it's great if they use it to maintain disc golf in their area.

BUT...they should do one of these things:

1. Ask for donations or charge the participants the set amount they want to make off them.

2. Play the numbers game under the umbrella of PDGA guidelines, and make the participants happy. I don't care how!! Services. Amenities. Payout. Whatever. There have been many tournaments discussed on this board in the last 6 months...attended by many players...and we have heard NOTHING about low payouts.

3. Keep on doing what they have been doing for YEARS. Throw tournaments and have MANY players questioning payout...both professional and amateur. Then be indignant about it. Then have the usual posts on this message board that people should simply be thankful.

Fact is...some of the pompous posters on this thread ADVERTISE their tournaments all across the country. They are the "movers and shakers" who get big tournament status. Then...when it comes payout time...some players are suprised at the low payout. Then it's time to tell them how greedy they are.

Just forget the fact that these same players have played in all the tournaments over the last 6 months. Forget the fact that they didn't question any of the payouts. Always YOURS!!!!!!

Why is that????????????????

Nevermind...I know...it's because of all the great things you are doing for disc golf.

Well...heck...why don't you just advertise that and we'll all come play your charity event for your charity!!!! I like charity events!

www...don't have to. I just know that region 11 has Pizza God...and nobody pays amateurs like Pizza God. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif Then we have the nutsoid Australian with Trevor "I'm sick of the ams getting screwed" Lawhead travelling around like Santa on Christmas.

Payouts are simply not much of an issue in Oklahoma and Texas.

I'm glad to hear they are not an issue in the deep south.

But there are some places where it is an issue!

And Kirk...I beg your pardon...but I'm not wrong. The amount of prizes you described for the...what was it????...oh yeah...3 players you have known...is not making a killing in disc golf. Minus the players expenses...and the top ams in your region couldn't pay for one trip to Kiss the Sky.

Better yet...if YOU don't like ams who want to get something for their efforts and the money they spend...throw FREE tournaments for locals or QUIT throwing tournaments.

Gee...it's so fun talking like that. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

oh yeah...my experience as an amateur is greater than most of the people speaking on this thread.

And the notion that the only amateurs who complain about payouts are the ones at the top is NOT true. Not by a long shot. The ones who are more prone to complain about payouts are the ones who FINALLY play a solid weekend of disc golf...something they KNOW they can do...but never pull it off...until now. They sweated...they maintained their composure...they battled on the lead card with players who they are used to trailing by 20 strokes. They did it all. They came in fourth. Then came the low payout. YEAH. YOU HEARD ME. LOW PAYOUT. IT EXISTS. WE HAVE ALL SEEN IT. PROS AND AMS ALIKE.

Well said Randy!

Thank you. It's a good thing the first response was intelligent...otherwise I would have multi-posted again. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

As I said before there are no Ams in Disc Golf.

Anyone is more than welcome to take a look at the balance sheets for any RADL events (PDGA sanctioned) for the past 6 years (thats all I have electronically). You will see that we have averaged 145% payout to the Am divisions.

We payout very well but that doesn't mean I have to agree with it.

Ams should get a players package, breakfast, lunch and dinner on Saturday and breakfast and lunch on Sunday. With the addition of a players party Saturday night. Trophies for, say the top 5 or 10 places.

Or, we could lower the entry fees.

Amateur - one who does something for fun rather than for pay. Webster's New World Dictionary.

For those of you not paying attention the key word in that definition was PAY. If you are payed to perform whether by cash or product you are not an Amateur.

The bottom line is be glad you are getting something. If you feel you payed too much money to participate in an event and not enough was given back to the players don't go back next year. Vote with your dollars.

randy rocks!

matchu!!!

Kirk, save the amateur definition LOAD OF CRAP. We have heard it all before. This sport is patterned after another sport called GOLF.

Most of us know the amateur status in GOLF. IT DOES NOT FIT YOUR DEFINITION. Save it for raquetball. Or come down where I live and compete on the mountain bike trails in the amateur divisions and compete for REAL merchandise.

You like what you want. You throw the tourneys you want. BUT YOU CAN SHOVE YOUR OPINION ABOUT WHAT EVERYBODY ELSE SHOULD WANT.

Just what we need...another carrier of the plague on PDGA committee.

All of you amateur players out there...everytime one of these jerk-offs talks about you playing disc golf for the pay at these tournaments...

please let them know that they can't be taken seriously...and maybe suggest that they shouldn't be doing things they don't like to do...because it's obviously causing brain damage.

Randy,

Our current system for the Amateurs is based on greed. It is not going to change. I am not going to try to change it. My opinion of it will not change.

Also, I will speak up evertime I hear someone complain about an Am payout. If you don't like the payout don't go back to that tournament next year.

You mentioned in an earlier post something about Ams not winning enough to cover their expenses. That sure sounds like a Pro to me.

Stop being a greedy bunch of spoiled babies.

Kirk,

Your current system is based on volunteerism and giving...and taking and forcing because volunteerism isn't enough to support YOUR PROFESSIONAL SPORT WHICH CAN'T COVER IT'S EXPENSES. Yeah...you're right. Not winning enough sure sounds like PRO in this sport.

Your views are reflective of the virus that runs deep in this sport. I have a great idea. Let's get you on the PDGA Competition Committee!

Your sickness is the inability to define PROFESSIONAL because you have spent too much time in a sport that has had to pretend to be professional.

Most of us know that amateurs foot the bill for the PDGA. You need to be thankful.

My prescription for you is a small dose of reality. Amateurs give alot of money to the Professional DGA. They give alot of time to organizing and helping out at Professional DGA tournaments. They pay to play at PDGA events. They travel to play at PDGA events. They are "payed out" in merchandise. When the merchandise is not reflective of the price they pay...they should be able to complain about it...and then shove your comments back in your face.

Feel free to think and say what you want. I have no problem dealing it with it.

Fact is you need to stop being a greedy fake-pro.

And Kirk...just to keep things clear:

The reason I am not being civil with you on this thread is because of the "greed" factor you are using.

There are "greedy" players in all divisions. They are a very small minority who give little back to the sport and show little appreciation for the input of labor involved.

But to suggest that all amateur players should be happy with what they get in merchandise...no matter what they get or how much...no matter the circumstance is NOT ACCEPTABLE.

To pretend that amateurs are never short-changed is UNACCEPTABLE. To pretend that there are organizers who do not take money from am fields...in various ways of playing with financial numbers...is NOT ACCEPTABLE.

It does happen. When it happens...there is nothing "greedy" about questioning the practice.

I, unlike you, have never played for what I stand to get at the end of a tournament. Heck...I've never been good enough to do so. Nor would I care if all my entry fees went to a charity...and that charity could be the local disc golf scene...or the organizers family. It's all good to me.

But I do have a MAJOR problem with people who supposedly don't like the merchandise amateur system...but who throw am tournaments anyway...then apply some of their philosophies into the payout scheme to take from said system...then perform their usual "greed" antics to waylay any criticism of their taking from the system which they disagree with.

It is underhanded...compounded by their unfounded accusations of "greed" towards those who have travelled and paid money to play in a system that is being undercut and used by those who disagree with it.

Don't worry...I don't play in these peoples events. Because I won't get what I deserve? No. I could care less about what I get. I won't play in their events because I don't like their smug underhandedness.

Anybody know how Bruce Brakel's "True Am" division did at Flipcity? I would love to see this more in events around the county...play for points and trophies, not prizes.

[mule1]

Hey Randy, I confronted you a long time ago about the tenor of a post you made. Your friends rallied and e-mailed me and told me that if I met you, I would like you. It seems like we exchanged a couple of civil e-mails. Your friends may be right, and you may be a decent person. However, the tenor of your attack on Kirk, who I know well, places you in the same category as a number of other offensive posters on this board. It is possible to disagree with him and others without being so pissy. Perhaps you are just trying to get a rise out of some folks. If not, do you really think that you will be able to affect the opinions of others by stooping to something akin to name calling tantrums? The reason you are not being civil has nothing to do with who Kirk is or what he happens to believe. It has to do with who you are. You reveal yourself.

[Dick]

i think maybe randy is just a bit worked up about an issue that possibly affects him, whereas i notice others posting here aren't as affected by am payouts, except that possibly some like the 'added cash' for their pro divisions. does it happen everywhere? no
does it happen enough to make me only want to play monthlies, charities and tag matches? yes

but i think kirk and others are missing the point here, we don't care how much merchandise we get. if i paid 15 bucks, got a disc, top 3 got trophies and the club made a couple bucks, fine. but if i pay 30, 40, 50, bucks and get that same disc and possibly a couple more discs if i place it is more than the club 'covering expenses' as some have put it. where does that extra money go? it's not like i can't add. 25 ams @40$= 1000$ in am money, then we get paid out a total of 50 discs, which at retail is like 500.00. that [*****].even if the winner gets a skillshot or m14, that is like 65%. if you don't want to pay out merch, which i am all for, lower the [*****] fees. if i am chipping in to support the club/course, fine,NOBODY who knows me can say i don't contribute to courses. but pros should support themselves. if they want bigger payouts, they should do as someone earlier suggested (nick?) and go find sponsors that will specify their money goes to the pro payout...
it's not the low payouts that bother me, since i never win anyway. it's the low ratio of am money to prizes. you want to eliminate am prizes, fine by me. but then lower the fees to cover the players pack trophy and course fee!

sorry, pet peeve ramble off.

[Dick]

p.s I'd love to see the 'true am division'
i don't mind paying for course costs and trophies and playing for fun. it's competing with others that i'm looking for, not plastic.
heck, when i win plastic, i always give it away anyway, since i rarely get stuff i can use. except at calvert monthlies, we let you pick your discs.

Calm down guys. The typical (PDGA) DG event is organized along the lines of a social club, somewhat like poker night.

You pay to play, ideally in a group of like skilled players. The money "ams" pay buy a player's package the TD bought at wholesale, but valued at retail. The profits are rolled into the so called "pro" purses, various merchandise prizes for "ams" and other costs. This is all fine and dandy.

Yes, the Ams are not Amatuers in the strickest of definitions, rather they are "recreational players" playing for some sort of merchandize prizes. However, the sport has defined an Am as someone who has won less than $XXX over a period of time.

Strickly speaking, the pros are not really pros, but merely highly skilled recreational players who've forgone the player's package in hopes to win a part of some pot. This is not unlike how someone might wish to win a few bucks at some guys night out playing poker (instead of DG). The DG purse is generally funded as a social gathering of DGers who've agreed to pool their money for prizes.

A true professional sport figure brings much more value into the game than they take out. They attract lots and lots of spectators for sponsors to attempt to sell all sorts of goods to those spectators so that their professional competition can fiscally survive on it's own merits. This doesn't happen in DG to any significant extent, at least not currently.

Sure, there are a few KCs in the DG world, who do bring out a gaggle of DG enthusiasts to watch play, after the "spectators" have also played in their rounds. However, KC can barely be called a pro, at least for their winnings on the 'tour'. It's likely that after expenses, the event is a wash to a loss for most pros... For a pro tour to be successful, the balance has to be that most pros take home enough to support themselves as well as the event as well as for the sponsors. Ain't happening...

One also has to realize that for most sponsors, there is a healthy marketplace for sponsorship and advertizing in the sports marketplaces -- amatuer and professional. The average weekend amatuer youth soccer tournament attracts far more folks than any DG event, as does the typical "professional" single A minor league baseball event...

What's really screwed up with all of this is how the PDGA, a so called non-profit, has a 'altruist(?)' goal of directly sanctioning for profit events whose primary goal is to move sponsor money into the pockets of it's members... By most anyone's definition, this is a for-profit activity, which should rightly be delegated to a seperate FOR-PROFIT entity to sanction and operate.

By most reasonable reading of nonprofit statutes, ALL sponsor money at a nonprofit event should go towards the altruist nonprofit goals like building more courses, clinics for ams, etc, etc. In other words, if the event payout is more than 100% of the entry fees, the event should be designated as a for-profit event and 'sold' to the parks, players and sponsors as such...

That's how it works for the USGA (which is a nonprofit sports body that sets the golf rules and specs while offering a variety of nonprofit clubs for recreational players) and the PGA Tour (one of several FOR-PROFIT tour golf clubs) which plays according to USGA rules and specs.

Bottomline is this is one of those half full half empty things. The perceived problem of "persecution of ams" is really the result of a deliberate (and ethically dubious) favoritism for pros and a pro tour by most of the leadership of the non-profit PDGA. This isn't to say these efforts aren't laudable, rather the vehicle that is being used is inappropriate for the task...

Expect this problem to continue far into the future -- at least until the PDGA is properly reorganized so that those of for-profit and nonprofit interests can ethically pursue their goals without stepping on each other's toes.

Stan, I understand what you're saying. And I agree with some of it.

But I think you are missing my point of pissiness. My comments to Kirk have nothing to do with him as a person. They have nothing to do with me as a person (I understand you considering it a reflection of me).

But the point is he has made comments from the offset about people being greedy...and even suggested they quit playing. You and I have run into this problem before. I don't know if you have read the entire thread...and I don't know if you have kept up with it's timeline.

I have stated the major problem I have with his attitude and others on this thread. I consider it to be an underlieing theme which has caused alot of rifts in this sport.

And Rich...as I have stated...I do not play this sport for what I can get out of it. And yes...I like low entry fess, trophies and t-shirts.

But opposed to others in this forum...my likes and dislikes are NOT the detemining factor of how disc golf should be for everyone.

The fact is...anyone with any integrity at all...knows that people who pay money for something have the right to know where the money is going. This sport has a non-disclosure fetish wrapped in a funny numbers retail game while saying rude things about people who question it.

[mule1]

Randy, life is short and disc golf is not what life is all about. I do not see how you can divorce your comments toward Kirk from him as a person. Kirk is a big boy and can defend himself, but he is my buddy and I choose to defend him. I believe that you are deluded if you think that the words that proceed out of your mouth have nothing to do with who you are as a person. I have that on good authority.

Rich, you are probably correct about this being an issue close to Randy and a lot of other players who do not play for cash.

I'll bet that Kirk agrees that there is no need to take "am" fees and put them into a "pro" purse. I have never known Raleigh to do that nor Charlotte. I am a proponent of a players package that equals the retail value of an "ams" entree fee. After that, whether they get a trophy or a sandwich or some additional merchandise or if they get nothing more, everybody got a minimum of retail value merchandise for their entree fee. I can say that without ridiculing those who feel differently.

Ok, Stan. I appreciate your opinions...and the way you express them.

And I have no problem with you defending your buddy.

And I may be a deluded jerk [*****] artist...been called worse.

Thanks for the life lessons...I've been around awhile myself...actually lived quite a life.

I have said NOTHING about Kirk that equals calling people greedy. I hear Masters play Masters because of greed everytime Masters divisions are discussed on this message board. I hear about greedy ams everytime payouts are discussed on this message board.

I hope you begin to understand the REAL reason I'm showing my true character on this message board. It doesn't have ANYTHING to do with what you have said about me.

Maybe in the great life beyond disc golf...it's ok to slander peoples character if it is done with generalizations instead of debating one on one. I disagree.

Saying people are greedy and that they play for the wrong reason and they should quit playing in Masters or Amateur RUBS ME THE WRONG WAY.

I don't think any amateur who questions payouts should be subjected to what a member of the PDGA Competition Committee SAYS he will subject them to.

Maybe some....but not all.

What happens if an organizer makes a mistake in the payout? It's happened before. Should any amateur who points out low payout be rediculed because pointing out the mistake proves the player is greedy? Should all players be happy with what they get...even if it's not what was intended?

My only criticism of Kirk has been his EXPRESSION of his views on THIS ISSUE. Greedy, whiny, maybe you should quit...is WORSE than anything I have said about him.

Maybe you didn't get it Stan...my harsh words toward Kirk were a play on his own words.

Anyway...I stand by what I have said on this thread. I know I'm on the good side of this issue. If organizers want to take from am entry fees...they should let the ams know how much and for what. If organizers want to take from money raised to sponsor am tournaments...they should let the ams know how much and for what.

As for the those who want to discuss HOW amateur tournaments should be structured...or what would make ME happy at amateur tournaments...have at it.

Kirk raised the comical, ams are not ams in this sport issue...which was slaughtered about a year ago. We can go over it again. It would probably save Kirk some time if he simply researched the amateur standards in golf. Then at least...he would have some answer for his raquetball friends.

All the people I know...in many sports...cannot begin to understand people not knowing that ams play for merchandise. It is VERY common.

So excuse me if I am a little put off by the ABSOLUTENESS of Kirks assertions.

Fred, yours was an excellent post.

[neonnoodle]

At the same time, Kirk need not think so lowly of the amateur players. He too used some pretty strong language. As someone pointed out somewhere in here, we created this situation ourselves and whether we try to undo it or push through hoping it will all work out there are tangled issues that need to be worked out.

Full financial disclosure after the event is a standard that I think is worth considering. It is a matter of taking the time to fully fill out the TD Report. I'm not as sure about setting pre-event minimums but it could be worked out with a few catch nets for the TD incase turn out numbers are dreastically different one way or the other.

Oh yeah, and when I said 100% payout I meant 100% of the entry fees going to the field of amateurs, this includes players packages, lunches, prizes and trophies. I also meant in slightly discounted retail value.

I do agree with Kirk that disc golf does lack the form of amateur class he described, a more true amateur class, but I don't think that we need to through the baby out with the bath water. We should keep our Prize Class. Of course I'd love to see the formation of a non-prize or Amateur Class very much, but it would take quite a bit of effort to bring it about when most folks, pro and am, in disc golf have been playing for stakes at organized events since our beginning. I don't know if we are u to that challenge or not.

I wonder how well a free PDGA Major event would do? You know where expenses and trophies and stuff were covered completely by sponsorship? Something to think about.

[neonnoodle]

There is a line between working to better our sport and pointlessly making a public spectical. And it seems that we all lose sight of that from time to time. The important think is to learn from it and move on.

That line was crossed here. Hard feeling don't lead to truth, they just lead to more hard feelings. If this specific am had questions about a specific td for the payout at an event he attended then we should be at least able to agree that speaking directly with them after the event and finding out the real poop one on one, displays a little more respect and maturity than crying wolf here on the PDGA Mess Bored, can't we?

I'm not in full compliance with your last post, Nick. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

The title of the thread is a little overboard...common around here.

But the first post didn't seem like a shot at a TD to me. It seemed to me, that the post was questioning PDGA guidelines. It also seemed that the questions were coming from someone who wasn't well researched on PDGA guidelines.

Actually, the thread started off very tame. And their was good discussion taking place.

Then came the obligatory SHOTS from people who DO NOT want to discuss THE ISSUE.

They want to discuss another issue.

Everyone should read the first page of this thread. It's good reading. There are questions that organizers need to face about how am payouts are manipulated.

There is nothing wrong with discussing them on this message board and there is nothing wrong with amateurs having questions about payouts.

I'm sorry I was playing rough on this thread...but I will stand up against the constant attacks on peoples motives about playing in their divisions or questioning payouts.

I am quick to throw dirt clods at those who have no problem slinging mud in the direction of the "normal" people who make up the bulk of this tournament organization. Everytime the mud is slung...it's attached to how the sport is tainted and how it needs to be fixed according to the will if the mud-slinger. And don't forget how the people will never change...and how it would be too painful for them...those nasty little phrases really [*****]-me-off.

[haroldduvall]

These are the guidelines that I use and teach to new TD’s:

1) Pro’s pay high entry fees and play for money. A few also receive trophies. Pro payout should exceed pro entries.

2) Amateurs pay low entry fees. All receive players packages. Many amateur players (30%-40%) receive trophies. The conservative retail value of Am player packages and trophies should exceed amateur entries.

3) Amateurs do not play for money or stuff. Amateurs are never forced to move up, but amateurs never receive a financial incentive to stay at their current level.

4) Sponsor money covers expenses first and then pro payout second.

Using these guidelines, our tournaments almost always fill. Amateurs typically represent 60% to 70% of the field.

Take care,


Harold

Why can't merchandise be rated at the price for which is paid by the organizer for said merchandise?

Why do the terms "conservative" or "slightly discounted" have to be used?

Why does "retail" have to be used at all?

If a disc manufacturer donates discs for sponsorship, at no cost to the organizer....why aren't these discs given to players at no cost?

[keithjohnson]

sometimes they are....sometimes they get marked at going retail...sometimes people rip each other off........that is the unfortunate reality of some td's/organizers....
the best way to beat them at their own game is to avoid going to places that are known to do the latter...several cities are WELL known for treating players great and several cities are WELL known for treating players badly.....
i do WHOLE HEARTEDLY AGREE that info should go ont he flyers and the board so that players KNOW AHEAD OF TIME which events they want to spend their hard earned dollars on......

the sad part is that some people just don't care.

> Why can't merchandise be rated at the price for which is paid by the organizer for said merchandise?

For the same reason that the USGA defines the value of ALL prizes at retail, even if they're donated by sponsors, Mr. "This Sport Is Patterend after Another Sport Called Golf." Anyone who has researched the amateur standards in ball golf should know that. /clipart/wink.gif

[mule1]

Randy,
For our club in Charlotte, the cost difference between retail and what we purchase the discs for is what has paid for the majority of the baskets and tee signs and tee pads and the overall disc golf experience here in Charlotte. No am $ padding the pro purse. No TD's or staff getting paid. No greed or self serving ambitions other than raising money for the club, so that when the club has an oportunity to get the next course installed, the funding is there. The formula works well. Nobody is getting persecuted or ripped off.

There is another factor here in Charlotte. We have a disc golf pro shop, Disc Landing. Before them it was S&amp;P Kites. There is a great benefit to the disc golf community to have a pro shop to send folks to to purchase plastic or get tips on the sport. We don't want to flood the market with so much plastic that it drives our local disc golf pro shop out of business.

Check out what Charlotte has to offer as far as courses, the quantity and quality, and compare it to other cities. You judge for yourself. Retail vs. cost. Vive le difference ! (I need a French editor.)

[holgate]

Well I guess I have to be a stinker Stan...when I operated a portable pro-shop for a year at the parks by permit, I received (0) support from the Charlotte club. In fact 15% of all sales was reported monthly and went directly to Park &amp; Rec, but I was told to stay away from events...still got a copy of the signed paperwork from a club officer, of course.

John, I know why the USGA uses the definition...and I think it's a good idea. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

And Stan...I have also seen what you describe work very well for one of the most successful disc golf clubs.

But Keith touched a little more on the real issue as pertains to the PDGA tournament scene. With the type setups described...it is important for organizers to "do the right thing". As I stated earlier in this thread...most do the right thing.

They make the players happy. It can be done many different ways.

Would some of you please admit...that there can be reason for amateurs to question payouts? Can you admit that there have been a few tournaments which for some reason...almost always (I'm trying to be nice here)...SEEM to have low payouts.

Again...the reason these payouts SEEM low...may be because the organizer(s) are using some money for a great disc golf cause...maybe local maintainance.

My point...in case you have missed it, is that these type organizers should be VERY careful in their handling of "payout concerns". They should not be beligerent. The should not call people names.

What they should do is let the players know. If it's possible, they should let the players know ahead of time.

While many may find the merchandise payout system to be harmful...it has been the backbone of some of the strongest disc golf clubs. It is a proven model of success. Not the only model...but in my area...there is no comparison between clubs who use an am merchandise payout system and those who don't.

We also have touring organizers in this region. Quite exciting really. Some of their success is based on the am merch payout system.

So...whether you are a fan or not...there is reason to be concerned about organizers who participate in such a system but fail to "deliver the goods". How much concern? Just a little. At least enough to be able to ask "Why does the payout seem low?" without being excommunicated. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

If a player asks such a question of an organizer such as Pizza God...who's am payouts are over the edge /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif, Pizza God could give a very good answer.

That's all I'm asking. If your payout seems low...give the true answer to the question. Rhett did it. I thought his was a true, great answer. Most everyone understood. (Although Rhett's first entry to this thread probably started me on my rampage /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif) An example of the WRONG answer.

Most players...even those who can SEEM greedy...will understand when it is explained to them.

[terrycalhoun]

"Why does the payout seem low?" certainly sounds better, and is preferable to "Why are you persecuting Ams?" Even better is, "Can I see how it worked out to get these payouts?" (Assuming that this is not during the middle of the award ceremony, or when it's dark and the staff are packing boxes up.)

Better, I think, is "Nice trophies."

Best of all is "Thanks."

[mule1]

Yes, as usual, you do Mike. Too much said already.

Good. Then when you run a tournament...advertise trophy payouts. I'm sure you will be thanked.

If someone wonders why there is no merchandise payout...point out where you disclosed that there would be no merchandise payout.

Thank you very much.

Randy,

Let me start this by apologizing for getting you fired up. That was not my intention. I agree with you that I said some things that seemed harsh. It is hard to convey tone in plain text. I can say that I have heard so many Ams complain about how little they got in prizes from an event that I do get a little harsh with my text.

I stated my opinion. I believe the current system to be flawed. But, I will not try to change it. The reason for that is I believe that the more discs (discs especially) that are given away the more the sport will grow. If even a few of the people that win discs give even one disc away to someone else that is just starting out, sooner or later everyone will know about disc golf and none of us will have to explain our bags full discs anymore.

The Raleigh Area Disc League has never used Am entries to pad the Pro purse. Key word there was never. I have already offered to show anyone our balance sheets. Our club uses the same system that Stan described for Charlotte. All profit goes back to the courses. Also, because of our Summer Doubles and Monthlies we do make a profit from the Pros as well.

Stan,

Thanks!!!

Kirk

[mule1]

Beading !!!!!!!!! /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[paul]

Go back to yelling Randy - they still won't get it but it's much more fun to read.

(Keith got it . . .that's impressive.)

Kirk, there is never a reason to apologize to me on this message board. I don't view our posts here as personal.

You said a couple things on one issue that provoked my wanting to expose the meaning of the words and the behaviour which you described.

As I've stated...I think most organizers go well beyond any call of duty in their efforts to provide the best tournaments possible.

I am opposed to the absolute statements regarding this issue. There are exceptions. And yes...I can't stand it when people whine about payouts...and usually give them a hard time about it when I know what to tell them about the payout. My advice is usually the same as yours...don't attend tournaments thrown by the particular organizer.

And I also think the system has many flaws...but I think it's amazing how well it works...for everyone.

I can get away with spouting alot of this crapola because the people who know me...know I would NEVER say anything about MY payout. I could care less. In fact...I think my entire entry fee to events is not enough to cover the work that is done in order to provide me the tournament.

But I do understand other amateurs, especially the younger ones, having a problem with spending money for travel along with entry fees...and being treated as if they shouldn't want to receive merchandise.

I also have a problem with people who play for cash...constantly talking about how bent it is for amateurs to be getting all of this plastic...when we all know good and well...that getting the plastic isn't all it's cranked up to be. Two thirds of todays Open players who hardly ever cash SAY, "I don't want to play for plastic anymore".

Why is that???? Why do people want to provide an alternate professional division to allow lesser Open players to play for cash???

By the arguments that many of you use about merchandise payouts to ams...one would SWEAR...that lower Open players would be DIEING to come back to amateur where they can wallow in the amateur riches.

But we all know...that the arguments presented about Am payouts are a pipe-dream. Sure there are exceptions on both sides of the fence...but we all know what the norm is. And the norm is all of the threads about tournaments where payout is never mentioned. The norm is players saying thank you. And the norm is those few players who whine about everything. And those few organizers who always seem to get players fired up about low payouts.

I am truly sorry about your experiences with ams...but there are organizers in this area who love the ams...and the ams love them.

...and I know you love ams too and ams love you. But I'm just responding to what you are saying HERE...not to the person that I know loves disc golf and does all kinds of things for disc golf. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[deathbypar]

The best point of all is that we can do the math and a lot of us ams feel like we get screwed.

I've got a question for you:
Do you want us to come back to your tournament next year?

Jake,

If you are referring to me, I no longer TD any Am PDGA events. I do help out at 4 Am PDGA events here in Raleigh.

I run a Pro Open only event, the Dogwood Crosstown Classic.

[marcace]

Kirk get your arse to Texas again and play the Big Arms On The Brazos!! That would be in Lubbock ,Tx /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[haroldduvall]

Respectful questioning of the status quo is always good. A while ago I did this myself. This questioning lead to the guidelines I described previously. These guidelines definitely reflect my opinions on amateurism. They do not reflect the PDGA, USGA or the Olympics, all of whom are far too permissive. In my view, amateurs do not receive tangible value for their performance, but for their participation.

My tournament guidelines would definitely change if the Advanced Amateur division was reclassified as semi-pro. However, I am not sure that the results would be beneficial. This would simply be another version of the current pro divisions where the lesser skilled pay the freight. Semi-pro could become particularly unfair if the lesser skilled are institutionalized into the bottom of this division via a rating range.

As Randy indicated, communication is certainly the key. We let amateurs know that for their low entry fees they will receive nice player packages, a lot of trophies, and four rounds of disc golf. Amateurs continue to represent 60% to 70% of our fields. Most are repeat customers.


Take care,


Harold

[keithjohnson]

i learned all i know about tding from PLAYING in tournaments all around the country as both an am and a pro....and just did what players liked about events and did not do what players disliked about the events......some of the best lessons i learned form in florida was from shawn harrigan and ron aldridge and from outside of florida....was from mark ellis in michigan(dglo) and andy caris(seneca creek soiree)...on how to treat ams AND pros alike..some places i went to more than once were for THE COURSES AND OTHER PLAYERS only and not payouts(even when i was cashing).....

i'm sure randy knows which place i speak of /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

paul..thanks for the encouraging? words /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

one day i might run events again and i will endeavor to make them as player friendly as possible.....keith

[keithjohnson]

harold also brings up a good point that in certain areas of the country things work VERY WELL when advertised in advance....

by the way i left harold off the list because the pro worlds and usdgc are not like regular yearly tournaments........but i did learn alot from harold at pro worlds charlotte/rock hill while playing and helping out there when i could..
and i still remember his famous line (that gets repeated at every worlds now)as he ripped off his "td" shirt saying this was going to be "THE BEST WORLDS EVER"

maybe one day i'll get "invited" to see him td an event again /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

keith

This is Great!
Thanks Randy you did some Honorable posting on this thread. And to everyone else who helped me get the point across. Thanks! Keep on post here "Problem out in the open. No more problem"
Nick I never once wanted to make a witch hunt out of this. I am glad there were some individuals out here who could step back and SEE through all that smoke. There is a ton of stuff I would like to comment on, but I’m just too tired. It’s been a long weekend.

Nick Now I got my answers.
Here's my answer
"Support your AMs they are the future of Disc Golf":o

[SpeedyatHallofFame]

I approve of TD's that give AM's a healthy players package and only trophies to the winners.

I'd also like to see our system develop to the stage where the prizes that current Advanced players win go to the pro players who finish in the 30-60 percentile of the field. The "advanced" division players would have an incentive to play with all the "pros".

This payout could be simplified with set system and vouchers.

I don't think it is necessary to have many 1st place finshers at each tournament. I think it's funny that 2nd place finishers come off the course saying "I lost"

[neonnoodle]

Jeff, I'm glad that we are beyond the harsh feeling posts. I agree that financial disclosure is important and that we treat our Amateur Class players well, my point was that when and if a question arises concerning payouts that you have the respect and courtesy to take that concern directly to the TD or organizer in question. Bringing it up here on the mess bored in specific or general terms makes it appear that you are either taking a shot at a specific TD or at TDs in general, and in both cases THAT IS WRONG. Only bad feelings will result, whereas taking it directly to the source will result in you getting an understanding of what is involved, or if on the rare occasion a TD IS taking advantage for financial gain you can let him/her know POINT BLANK that you will not attend his/her event again, and that you will advise others to do likewise. Either of which is more respectful and constructive than some of what has gone on here.

That is a different issue from what TDs or players feelings are about how our Am or Pro class is set up.

I don’t think that it can be denied that at least in part this thread and your posts were an attempt to question the motivations of PDGA TDs in general and perhaps one specifically. You need to get your facts straight before you cry wolf here on this impersonal mess bored is all I’ve tried to point out. TDs and organizers on every level work their arses off to create opportunities for you to participate in as good of events as they can manage. Any expression of distrust or lack of appreciation is not only misplaced, it is equivalent to taking a dump where you and all tournament disc golfers sleep.

Common courtesy, appreciation, and respect should always be employed when working with TDs (same goes for players). Even the worst TD you’ve ever encountered, let alone the world class ones posting here, don’t deserve the kick in the teeth provided here.

[neonnoodle]

That's an interesting idea Speedy.

perhaps there is not enough AM persecution.

burn a few at the stake. heck a few pros too.

a witch! burrrrrrn her!

that'll get em in line. :^p

sorry.

seriously, disc golf seems to have brought an aspect of ball golf along as it has grown...

paying deep into the field...

i am not saying it is good or bad-- just that the "payout" is deeper than most other competitive sporting activities.

in most sports i have competed in-- either as an AM or a PRO, it was First, Second, Third.

period.

no one got squat beyond those three places.

coming in 7th out of 20someodd competitors-- shouldn't get awarded didley, imho.

First - Second - Third (per div)
sweet players package, when possible.

imho, that is how it should be.

[neonnoodle]

The proof is in the punch. If you think that would work then run some events using that format and see how it goes.

I suspect it would take some time for folks used to the high entry fee big wide payout to get used to it, but agree that in the long run it might offer up some solid results.

that is how it was in professional WS.

you came out fourth you were sheet outta luck. not every event-- but the world cup regattas do not pay out THAT deep. (they track "points" too)

first, second, third only seperates the men from da chillens real fast.

it also seemed to make folks realize they have no bidniz in a pro division really fast too-- or that is how it was in WS, i should say...

It may be silly to be happy about coming in 12th place and getting a few discs...

But I will never for the life of me...understand...how it can be so irritating for other people. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

it does not irritate me in the least.

i was just making an observation and slight comparision between sports in which i have competed, as both AM &amp; PRO.

i am sure nickazoid will tell us his take on the matter.

[j_d]

Posted previously: "Anybody know how Bruce Brakel's "True Am" division did at Flipcity? I would love to see this more in events around the county...play for points and trophies, not prizes."

I played as a "true am" in the Flip City tournament, paying a $10 entry fee. I did it for several reasons: 1) I have all the plastic I need and I often settle for discs I don't really want 2) I just wanted to compete 3) Hang out with some good people for a day 4) Get 2 rounds in on a course I had never played but heard was great (and it was). I know there were others who also played true am but don't have the numbers. Would I play true am again? Yes.

Hey Jim - what did you get for you $10 in the True Am Division? I am interested in hearing how this worked too - - I think it would be a great way to get newbies into the sport in a more serious way than Worlds Biggest Etc. (All though those are great events as well /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif)

[tdwriter]

Sorry, but I'm not going to travel two to five hours, haul my camper and associated items, and spend upwards of $100 for entry fees (for four people, advanced, am woman and two juniors) for a players package and trophies only.

Of course, the entry fees would be lower than what we're paying now, but I'd rather pay the $100 for the four of us with a chance to win some plastic and a plaque.

To each his own, though. Maybe most people will be happy with this. I have no problem with it, but I wouldn't travel very far to attend this type of event. Maybe an hour or so, but not much further than that.

I also will not be bullied into moving up into a division that I cannot compete in just so there's more money in the pro purse. If this is where the sport is going, so be it. I can always retire to the lake or enjoy Sunday doubles.

Good thing we have the SNDG! RwC

that is a good point russ.

i think gimp is talking about smaller "subregional" type events...

anyway, there will always be those type events russ... SN is a good thang indeed.

the system has already been established. there is little chance it will change much.

folks have a sugar buzz from all the candy. too late to change that phenomenon. :^p

and da persecution continues when will it stop?/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif go too your state,or out of state TOURnaments and
find out.

[tdwriter]

Let's just say this, the PDGA TD's can do what they want and I wish them success. But I KNOW what to expect out the SNDG TD's in the southeast, so I'll continue to support them because their philosophy toward Am's is more in line with what I expect.

I just hope that TD's state their intended payouts in their announcements or flyers, so I'm not surprised if I decide to "tour" outside SNDG territory.

RwC

BullsEYE RUSS on both points/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

uh-oh. I don't think I can stop myself...

Nope...I knew I couldn't.

Again...what is the point? Does anybody know? What is the point in defining amateur one way or another?

To protect one defined group of amateurs against another? To grow the sport?

There is one school of thought that thinks growing the sport is simply getting more and more people to play the game. In my opinion...this is in effect...growing the game...not the sport.

People who play the game...and there are many...especially where I am...do not take the game seriously. Where I work...just about everyone has played disc golf.

They have never heard of the PDGA. They aren't aware of tournaments. As far as they know...the city put the courses in...and maintains them. They know your game. They like it. About once every few months...it's something kinda cool and different to do with their friends. If you ask them what they think of the game...they will say they love it.

But they have no interest in your sport. They are busy doing other things. I think if they were channel surfing...and came across a televised disc golf tournament...they would stop and watch awhile. Now stop right there.

There are disc golf people across the nation, who think that these people are the future of the sport (unless you want to launch campaigns of disc golf for kids...which I think should have nothing to do with amateur definitions and tournament play). I feel very safe in saying these people are not the future of the sport as players.

But everyone that plays the game...not the sport...is a potential watcher of the sport on TV. OK. So the people who talk about getting courses in the ground...and getting people out to play the game...are on the right track.

This has nothing to do with being involved in the sport. And this is not windsurfing. This is a sport with great opportunities for it's participants on an amateur level.

We constantly discuss the problems the pro side of the sport faces in trying to raise the financial opportunities for players and organizers alike. This is, of course to be expected in such a young and inexpensive sport.

Then we constantly discuss the problems with the amateur side of the sport. Descriptions of greed...pushing people to turn pro...descriptions of amateurs shouldn't play for prizes.

The fact is...and this is HUGE and IGNORED...

AMATEUR DISC GOLF IS ONE OF THE COOLEST AMATEUR/RECREATIONAL SPORTS ON THE PLANET.

It is unbelievable compared to EVERY sport in the state of Texas. A person who plays the game of disc golf...then wants to start playing the sport of disc golf...can in a very short amount of time, find themselves competing in huge fields with players from all over the state...almost every weekend of the year. From official PDGA tournaments...to Texas 10's...to mini's everywhere.

Call this player what you want. It aint windsurfing. The player can be fully outfitted for what?...a cheap bag and 5 discs?

The player has all these people all across the state organizing these events. The player can go out of state and play all kinds of wonderful tournmanents. And I'm not being cheesy. There is NO OTHER sport that offers this kind of AFFORDABLE, ACCESSIBLE, ORGANIZED amateur tournament scene.

Windsurfing??????? Get out of here. Specialized...brother. Raquetball????? Get real. Not comparable. Golf???? I don't think so...way to expensive....the prizes can be good for their amateurs...but way to expensive still. Darts??? Bowling???

None of these can compare to the amateur sport I have been playing for the last decade.

I'm sorry...but I truly feel sorry for many of you. The unappreciated TD's. The unappreciated players. The people who long ago were eaten up by disc golfs rush to be professional...and forgot how great the amateur disc golf scene is...

When you're not having to be around the dark side of disc golf. I don't exactly know what happened in other regions. I have my suspicions.

Thankful???????????????????????????????????????

That would be ME. I am thankful beyond disc golf belief...that I took up this SPORT...in the state of TEXAS, where the bulk of organizers were not eaten up with whatever it is that caused the warped views I read on this topic.

Where I can partake in SERIOUS amateur SPORTS competition, playing the GAME...I love to play.

I would list all of the organizers...but the list would be too long...and I would end up leaving my favorite off. Because they're all my favorites.

You people need to ease up on your amateur definitions. You are wrong about the effects of amateurs having serious competition and receiving merchandise prizes.

The main income brackets which make up amateur tournament golfers is lower than most sports. And please...try not to just equate amateur athletics with children. Picture amateur athletics with adults...and adults over 40...and 50. This sport will remain accessible and affordable for people as they grow older...more than most sports.

These players don't travel for amateur prestige. They don't go out of town on a regular basis because of prizes. They don't do it just for fun.

It's the whole package. The entire surroundings and trappings. Disc golf on a big, organized scale. If they do well...they can get cool merchandise. Discs to throw and trade. Discs to sell...just like the big boys get to do...but on a much smaller level. These people deserve to be able to do these things.

They are not professionals. They are not semi-professionals. They are amateurs. They aren't good enough to compete against the best in the sport. But they can compete on a like organized level.

You see these people...holding their new merchandise as greedy little trolls, bred to slobber on themselves while clutching their precious prizes...a cruel fate given to them by organized amateur disc golf. Why? Because of what some top amateurs have received?

You want to pretend as if only a few people get all the prizes.

Not true. Never was true. Never will be true. Lots of everybody gets prizes. It's amateur disc golf...where have you been...windsurfing?

I'm not a big winner in amateur disc golf...I think I have to have some sort of record for DFL's. And I have all sorts of discs. Heck...I won 19 180 RAMS in one shot. Dang things are gonna last me more than a year.

I'm sorry that I am a part of the demise of the sport. I'm sorry that 100 people quit playing because I won all those RAMS. I apologize for being greedy. I should turn Pro. I should play for ribbons...and fun.

I really do feel sorry for some of you...even some of the most respected people in this sport.

Damm Randy I need to buy you a beer or two. You deserve it, after that one!/msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

yawn.

randy that is alot of typing for not saying too much.

i am just comparing two activities in which i have competed as an AM and a PRO.

point is... i have seen both sides of both sports... am &amp; pro.

it was never, for me-- about "what am i gonna win"

it is moreso about smiling.

if i get a players package i feel like i won before i threw a disc. :^p

[tdwriter]

Randy, you're my new hero!/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

You hit the nail on the head.

To me, winning discs is what keeps players coming back. A last place am wins a disc or two, that's two they don't have to buy.

And you're right, a lot of the guys I play with work at low wage jobs and can't afford to tour sometimes because they have bills to pay. They certainly can't afford some of the ridiculous entry fees some events are charging.

I think my next big golf trip should be to Texas. Sounds like the place to be if you enjoy disc golf. I even hear that some areas have considered hosting SNDG events. If so, welcome to the family.

The rest of the country can sell the ams short and cater to the pros, just some some guys can make a living off the "sport."

I'm not buying it. I love playing as an am. I love the competition. I love the comaraderie. I love the whole experience of camping out at a course (which we can do all over Mississippi), seeing my DG friends and making new ones.

But it hurts me when TD's are so tight that they can't give a little kid a lousy disc for placing in a tournament. Give that kid a disc and he'll be playing again.

Luckily, I have plenty of plastic to share with mine, so they will continue to play.

If I ever get back to Texas, I'll match that two beers /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif Take care, RwC

one place ams won't be disappointed,will be at da
BRENT HAMBRICK MEMORIAL june 28/29"03"(C-BUS,OH)
so i suggest that ams be there!
this is not a plug,i repeat this is not a plug!

many of the SN events give a novice attendee a choice of two discs or a small bag-- when they sign up... that to me-- is genius.

(i actually agree with randy. i just like giving the hair farmer a mild hard time. ;^)

Hair Farmer= Rhett /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

baggers!!!!
jk

ROB are you going to PFDO?

Randy - you should save that and post it over and over like Nick does with some of his ideas /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

Just messing with ya Nick /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[neonnoodle]

I'm well aware of Randy's viewpoint concerning this issue and I don’t disagree with it completely. Yet I can't help observing that we really just don't know what would be the result of the introduction of a Not-For-Profit Amateur Class into our competitive system would be (even from the handful of examples that exist out there). And the folks that love the current major payouts in our currently defined amateur class don't know what they would do if facing the choice between Pro or a True Amateur Class, because they have never faced that choice.

Game or Sport, organized disc golf has generated a “Gambler/Carney” mentality concerning entry fees and payouts almost from its inception. It has generated a certain expectation that I believe perpetuates the ongoing battle between whether to try and attract greater numbers of new players against whether to meet or in most cases exceed the expectations of existing players used to major payouts in the amateur class. Whether this is a cause of our success or a factor in our failure to get us to our stated membership goals or becoming more mainstream with greater public awareness and interest is debatable.

At this point, I don’t think that it is realistic to think that we can just pull the rug out from those who have come to expect huge payouts in our amateur class divisions. I do support the immediate proactive policy of using at least some of the payout and sponsorship funds (whether cash or merch) to provide all participants with an immediate return in the form of players package, lunch, or players party. And this whether Pro or Am class.

I’d love to see a Not-For-Profit Amateur Class be instituted as at least an option within our overall competitive plan. I would ABSOLUTELY want to play in that class. A class of minimum entry fees (just enough to cover event, local, and pdga fees) and play for pride and trophies. I have never felt completely comfortable playing for my friends entry fees nor have I thought that throwing the hard won sponsorship dollars at the same 5 to 10 players year after year was the best way to help our sport grow. I mean seriously, how many folks realistically show up at our events thinking “I’m going to win first place and go home with $1000 .”? Out of a field of 100, there are maybe 10 with any chance of having that happen, and what could that money have been used for instead? Getting out spectators, media coverage, simply fantastic players packages, gourmet players lunch or party, buying 3 or 4 disc-catching targets for a new course?

For me it is clear that organized disc golf, PDGA disc golf, does not have a true not-for-profit disc golf amateur class and this is due mainly to precedent and self-perpetuating expectation. It’s not necessarily a bad thing that we don’t; we just don’t know what an alternative would bring other than from examples found in other games or sports. I suspect that it would have a positive effect on our sport as a whole, but if it is to happen I am convinced that it will have to be introduced as a new option and not as a replacement for what we have now. TDs would decide what is right for their events and player base. And due to people’s general aversion to change of any kind, it will take some time and some consistent effort on the part of those who believe in it in order for it to take it’s place within our commonly accepted competitive system.

nick, you'll have to start on the new generation, or new crop of first time tourney participants, because the existing pool of competitors have a sugar buzz from all the candy.

actually, the dg tourney system-- as it exists is a wonderful thing.

it surely is not a bad thing.

[tdwriter]

Hey, go for it Nick. This is America after all.

Maybe it will work, maybe it won't. I won't say that I wouldn't participate, but I would expect the entry fees to be much lower than what I'm already paying.

Don't worry, maybe I'm just spoiled or an exception to the rule, but I know I'd have to seriously rethink my tournament attendance if that were to occur.

Of course, there's also ways to continue playing and enjoying disc golf without attending tournaments.

RwC

[neonnoodle]

It's funny, I'd have the exact opposite reaction Russ. I'd travel a lot more if I could go to Warwick or Paw Paw and pay less than $125 to $60, particularly in the Open class where I don't even get a shirt or disc, let alone a snowballs chance in Lums of cashing...

I'm seriously considering running a FREE PDGA event next year. One where sponsorship pays for all players packages, lunch and trophies. Whether it is an A, B, or C Tier would be completely dependent on how much sponsorship I could raise.

Actually, that is pretty much how the Mid-Atlantic Disc Club Invitational is this year. The $25 registration fee is really just that, a registration fee. It's the same for all divisions and will cover players package and lunch (and possibly a few rounds of beer at the players party), and the sponsorship, which will be around $2000 in cash will go to the top 45% in each division (and probably flatter than normal). This should acheive B Tier standards of payout. I'm going to focus on collecting direct mechandise sponsorship for amateur prizes (not mark up or diversion of funds) in the next 4 months. I've had difficulty securing such sponsorship in the past but it's worth a try.

And being that I reside in Rome, I am looking to secure a Disc-Catching Target for the winners of the Amateur Divisions, plus one for the spectators raffle of the final 9.

The Invitational is an invite only event, you have to be a MADC Member and place well at one of our MADC Series Events.

Does this sound like an event you'd be interested in playing in Russ? Why or why not?

Jeff,

PFDO, probably not. I'm taking time away from the tourney scene. My son is my top priority now. I am only playing 3 tourneys this year. I've already played 2 of them. The next one is Sneaky Pete in Burlington, NC. I can't go to AM Worlds because of last weekend, and I'm not going to Pro Worlds either. Besides, you upset me with your 80' side arm putts that hit nothing but chains. SHOT!!!

[bruce_brakel]

The True Am TD is back from vacation:

Anybody know how Bruce Brakel's "True Am" division did at Flipcity? I would love to see this more in events around the county...play for points and trophies, not prizes.

You are not alone, Shawn. Several players asked me if more TDs might be doing this. But, "True Am" was not a division, it was an optional reduced entry fee applicable to every division. 15 players in 5 divisions opted to pay $10 rather than the full entry fee, including Jim Daniels.

Randy asked what they got. They got full tournament value but no amateur payout. They got lunch, pdga points, pdga rated rounds, mdgo points, participation in ctps, pie tosses, ace pools, cash ctps and one even got a first place trophy! Several got the opportunity to play a tournament which otherwise they might have had to skip.

More importantly is what the TD got from True Am, because, remember, this game is all about greed:

Income .................... $150

Expenses
Pdga Fees ........ $30
MDGO Fees ........ $30
Lunch ............ $30
Trophy ........... $30
Pro-Rata Ins and
PDGA sanct. fees . $15
Total Expense for True Ams: $135

Profit Margin on True Ams: 10%

TDs, if your tournament is not going to fill, a $10 True Am option will attract more players, especially in the divisions with higher entry fees. For those who take this option, it also makes you a hero-for-a-day, which is nice, too.

most TD's are heros for life, imho.

that concept sounds excellent, bruce.

[neonnoodle]

More details please.

Did you have to make events using this X-Tier? Was this available in ALL divisions, even Open?

[rhett]

Jeff Boles, why are you trying to drag me into this thread??? /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

I wish Russ Corey would quit with the "SN Tour is God" stuff and try to help form the PDGA tour in his area into what works. We all keep trying to divide instead of work together. Ams versus Pros. Open versus Masters. SN versus PDGA. TDs versus Players.

Can't we all just get along? <FONT SIZE="-2">couldn't resist that lame quote. <FONT FACE="WINGDINGS">J</FONT></FONT>

[bruce_brakel]

Responding to some of the issues being raised:

Some TDs are pretty fair about giving a decent value to everyone. Some TDs and clubs regularly skim-scam the amateurs and slip it to the pros. Some are tricky, inconsistant or internally conflicted about their goals and values. Some, I don't know what they do with their profits. Most amateurs are pretty stupid about the whole process. Many TDs count on that.

In Michigan, I've noticed that Todd White (Kensington), Scott (Club Dead), the Northern Waters guys and a few others consistantly give fair value to their players. Others do not. Some I don't know about because I can't get to their events. Send me e-mail, Michigan players. I like knowing!

Players need to educate themselves and vote with their feet. Why keep going back to venues that are raking your division for some other purpose that you don't support?

It would be helpful if TDs would be honest about what they are doing. If you are running the amateur side of a tournament to buy baskets, plant trees, or fund a pro purse that will attract world class pros (at this tournament or a future tournament), it would be nice to know up front. If you are planning on giving your am prizes out flat in player packs, or steep in payouts, you can save yourself a lot of complaints by letting players know in advance.

------------

I'll be helpful by cluing in some of the clueless on disc golf economics.

TDs buy discs for 40 to 60% of the price you pay. Spread over a full field, sanctioning and insurance cost about $1 per player. Add $2 a player for PDGA $2 fees. You can walk into any trophy shop and find out how much your trophy or plaque costs.

At the Flip City MDGO I paid the Full-Fee amateurs 100%. E.g., 25 Advanced men X $35 = $875, so they got 875 in prize certificates. I did not deduct for trophies, $2 fees or a cheap lunch. Neither did I make any efforts to raise cash sponsorship. I paid the pros 110%. The PDGA and MDGO each made about $400 in sanctioning fees, player fees, and membership fees. I broke even.

If you aren't getting as much from your TD, you need to ask who is getting it, and then decide if you are o.k. with that.

[neonnoodle]

Bruce,

Details on the True Am Option?

[bruce_brakel]

Responding to Nick,

Yes, I X-tiered this. It took a few extra minutes to do the TD report because it was not set up for dual entry fees. I reported the average entry fee and then broke it down outside the preprogrammed portion of the spread sheet. (Kelsey did most of the TD report while we were on our way to the kids' vacation destination and on our way home!)

I wanted to offer a similar option for Amateurs playing in the Open division but the PDGA declined to X-tier that.

The MDGO has, in the past, obtained X-tier approval for a two-tiered entry fee in Open. Under this format, open players paid $40 to play. They could pay an optional $20 more (the "side-bet") and those who paid that competed for that side-bet pool plus all added and shifted cash.

[neonnoodle]

Sounds like another good idea. When you are at an event, as an Open player, with no illusions of cashing it'd be nice to have even a lower option than $40 as entry fee, but as noted prior, most events are dependent on entry fees to generate enough purse to hit sanctioning standards.

[bruce_brakel]

Someone said, "actually, the dg tourney system-- as it exists is a wonderful thing.

it surely is not a bad thing."

It is certainly a fun thing.

I struggle with the fact that it is an illegal thing in many states, including Michigan, Florida, California and sometimes Arizona.

Should we care if our county prosecutors do not? Am I sending the wrong message to my kids when they know that I know that Michigan law does not allow competitions for pooled cash or prizes? Every time I get done running this misdemeanor gaming violation we call a disc golf tournament I say to myself, "That's the last one I do that way."

For some reason it was easier to do one on private property on a dirt road in rural Michigan. I guess a lot of things are easier to do on private property on a dirt road in rural Michigan.

[Dick]

when i went to michigan for my mother-in law's wedding last summer, it reminded me alot of a flat west virginia. wish i could have hit a course out there, but none was very close to where i was. maybe next time. oh, well i can always go to the west virginia open. don't know about the payout since i didn't come close to cashing, but i had a LOT of fun.

Well I guess we know where to find Bruce when he is out of pocket. Somewhere in rural Michigan on a dirt road doing lord knows what. But you can bet it will be illegal./msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif
Bruce,
If it makes you feel any better knowing, you children will be exposed to numerous things in their lives that are shady at best. I think they will do just fine with a father who cares as much as you. In this case it will be many years before your kids even have any idea about what laws are in effect and the differences between laws designed to stop serious gambleing and sports that pool moneys just to attract competition. Disc golf is about competition and friends who share some common interests. Teach them the difference and you will empower them to think for themselves and hopefully make the right decisions. I have a one year old and will take all the advise you have. Just my 2 cents.

[tdwriter]

<FONT COLOR="0000ff">Nick</FONT>, yeah, I probably would enter something like you described, provided it was within a couple of hours of where I lived.

Spelling out what what players will receive, ie players' packages, prize payouts, food, party, etc., at least lets them know what to expect so they're not disappointed during the awards ceremony.

I'm not saying that what you suggest is wrong, it just should be spelled out so people know what to expect. Then folks can choose whether or not to attend. I think some of the complaints come from people who expected a certain result that didn't occur.

We run some fundraising events here where less money is returned to the players, but everything is understood up front and we've never had any complaints. In fact, we raised more money than ever at our last Christmas event, all of which went to charity. The winner received a plaque they keep for a year (with their name engraved) which will be passed on to the 2003 winner.

And <FONT COLOR="ff0000">Rhett</FONT>, I'm not trying to pit the SN against the PDGA. They're two different animals. The SN is a tour, Rhett, not a competing organizatin. It's becomming a very well organized tour, but only because there are so many events, results, money and points to be kept up with, and two championship events at the end of the season.

Sorry my comments came across the wrong way. Right now, at least, SNDG provides am winner with some type of plaque, usually for first but sometimes first, second or even third place, and plastic. The players like it, the entry fees are fair, and I don't see it changing any time soon. If the organizers choose different, than so be it.

I'm just stating, like others here, what I prefer as a "touring" am player who has to consider expenses when it's looking like all four of us will be playing.

I'm a PDGA member support what the organization does. I don't like everything that they do, but as a member, I can disagree. Right?

Many SNDG golfers are PDGA members, but many more are not, but that's their choice. The SNDG TD's prefer to run SNDG events for various reasons. We might be running a PDGA event here if our TD can swing it. Hopefully it will happen.

RwC

[bigchiz]

The Cornhusker State Games (http://www.cornhuskerstategames.com) is an Am only event. Fourteen divisions are offered in disc golf, and the only prizes are gold, silver and bronze medals in each division. Entry fees range from $12 to $19. The players pack incluces a t-shirt, meal tickets, entertainment ticket plus an invitation for participation in a grand Olympic style festival in a stadium.

Making it a PDGA sanctioned event would increase the entry fees by up to 45% (most participants are not members, would have to add the $5 temp membership $2). The event draws to a different than average disc golf crowd. It entices people to try competition. The local disc club is concerned that increasing fees to comply with PDGA sanctioning would deter potential players.

[haroldduvall]

Southern Nationals and PDGA events are not antithetical. We run several events each year that are sanctioned by both.

The candy buzz can be broken. We did it. It does not involve taken from the ams and giving to the pros. It involves giving about equally to all the ams.

The following is a serious question: Which is more important, receiving merchandise payouts or maintaining amateur status?

Take care,

Harold

Harold,
"The following is a serious question: Which is more important, receiving merchandise payouts or maintaining amateur status?"

Why are you attempting to make all, much less any, amature choose between merchandise and amature status? You guy's entice amatures to come to your events. You steadly increase their rewards for supporting your cause, and now that you no longer need them you want to dump on them.
Describe it another way or the way you are currently suggesting, it comes out the same. The very divisions you worked so hard to create you now want to "LIMIT." I cannot figure you guy's out. I see nothing wrong with the amatures playing for prizes and plastic if that is what turns them on. Try switching the pro awards to placques and gift certificates and see how many takers you get. Or just lower their entries and forget about added cash to the purse. Give the money to a charity./msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif
I can't wait to see the responses to this.

don't advertise what you can't deliver!(any TOURnament/anyone,is all i'm say'in)

* I'm seriously considering running a FREE PDGA event next year. One where sponsorship pays for all players packages, lunch and trophies. *

It's a violation of nonprofit rules to operate a widget nonprofit event whose purpose is to redirect sponsor money into the hands of widget members.

It's fine to operate such an event as a for profit event.

It doesn't make any difference between nonprofit and forprofit events to business sponsors as either way it's most likely tax deductible as a business marketing expense.

Also, sponsors to a nonprofit would generally expect that their sponsorship would go to support the altruistic goals of some nonprofit, not pad the pockets of the better member players...

[haroldduvall]

Dear Jerry –

Yours is fair question. My answer is: I am not trying to make amateurs choose. At the events I organize, I have already made that choice. This choice is based on a value judgment of mine regarding what constitutes amateurism. This choice manifests itself through substantially equal tangible rewards for all amateurs. In other words, amateurs receive value for participation commensurate with their entry fee, not performance.

My goal with the original question was to ascertain the impact or consequence of my value judgment. I try to constantly question my preconceptions. It’s quite possible that I am hung up on the definition of “amateur.”

As a TD, I can’t just “let players vote with their feet.” This only works in a balanced market. The disc golf market has both institutional friction and a supply/demand imbalance. Due to the excess demand for tournament spaces relative to the supply, we may be constantly filling our fields with a majority of amateurs even though they think my value judgment regarding amateurism blows big time.

So for you and others, the question still remains: Which is more important, receiving merchandise payouts or maintaining amateur status?

Take care,

Harold

Can you guys take a break from whining for a minute and go throw a round? Does all that typing make it hard to grip a disc? Most players show up the morning of a tourney and if they don't cash they leave before the awards ceremony. I appreciate the hard work TD's go through to host an event and to all of you I'd like to say Thank-you. I prefer trophies to discs simply because there are never any discs I throw awarded as prizes. Perhaps event notices should include the *MSRP on them like car ads. I think by a TD hustling to get a deal on discs and merch for a tourney their work has paid off. Wether it goes to a club a pro purse or thier own pocket is irrelevant, much the same as many peoples rants seem to be.

[neonnoodle]

Scott, you would be 100% right except for the fact that this is a discussion board where people tend to discuss what is relevant to them.

Which in the end, makes you 100% wrong. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[bruce_brakel]

Scott, Terry Calhoun claims that it is years of typing that have developed the weird muscles in his arm that makes him such a good player for such an old man!

FYI,

Harold is a giver to the game of disc golf. He has helped many, many courses come to fruition (New Bern Glenburnie Course for one). He has donated baskets to courses that start up and runs tournaments 5-6 hours away from his home (Eastern Carolina Championships in Kinston). There are many more than I am unaware of but the point is Harold helps the game much more than you guys say he is harming it.

Many thanks to Harold

[neonnoodle]

Let's compare:

Hall of Famer, Work Horse, and Gentleman.

....

On second thought let's not... /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[haroldduvall]

I appreciate the kind words, but it's the local folks everywhere who are really getting it done.

Take care,

Harold

[Chris Hysell]

I find that after a long day of gripping my mouse, I tend to develop early release syndrome.

[neonnoodle]

Oh sorry! Right you are, Chris. Back to the topic of persecuting ams...

[gnduke]

I think you need a more relaxed grip on that mouse.../msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif