Ratings transients

Wanted to get some opinions from others who have, or are considering doing the same thing I'm doing. There are many folks here in Tejas that I personally know that are utilizing the ratings to play in a division other than where they played before the ratings were implemented.

In my case, I'm about to step down two spots to play in MA3 (or 1 and a half, since MM1 ratings typically aren't up to MA1 levels).

There are several reasons for me doing this, some of which I've already read on this here board. My biggest reason is that no matter how much I tell myself that I'm playing for fun, not glory, I just can't seem to have any fun in tourneys anymore. I haven't seen any improvement in my tournament scores in so long that it'd be nice to play wherever the ratings say I can be competitive.

My thinking is that this is a temporary situation. I know I can improve. The plan is to see what it feels like to be competitive in a tourney and still hold it together until I get to the point where I'm forced up to MA2 by my play. Eventually, I want to be improved to the point of being pushed up out of MA2, at which time I can rejoin my OMB buds. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Anyone else doing this? For what reasons? Caught any flack about it yet? Glad you did or wish you hadn't?

You guys better share before I start naming names. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[rhett]

Do it! When your rating tops 875 you can rejoin the OMBs, because that is the cutoff.

If my rating drops to 924 or less like it should, it will present an interesting choice.

Be sure and let us know what choice you make. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

I coined the nickname "Martyr" when Mark announced that he would be playing up. It's a practice with which I have no problem...given the player is doing it simply because it's what they want to do.

But...I believe much of the playing up in the past was spurred by peer pressure...and that the results of this pressure were detrimental to the entire tournament structure.

With the advent of the ratings system...while I still have no problem with players who choose to play above their bracket...I think it is important for players to play within their bracket (same as I did before the ratings system).

The reasons are simple ones...

1. For the good of the ratings system. The more rated players play within their brackets...the easier it is to examine the effectiveness of the system. For instance...after playing 2 tournaments on courses where I am almost guaranteed to have hideous scores...it will be interesting to see the effect it has on my rating. Currently, I'm at 900. I figure my next rating should be around 500 /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif. I will play in my rating bracket. If I was to easily win some tournaments (doubtful...given the fact there are up-and-comers in lower brackets who will shoot scores much better than their rating as they rise to the next bracket), then it gives the ratings organizers something tangible to work with.

2. And this is probably more important than number 1.

I think one of the healthiest things that can happen in the sport is to see growth in the lower brackets. For instance...Advanced Master is growing. As it grows...there is a glaring need for an Intermediate Masters field. Since the current Intermediate Masters fields is very small...it would be nice to see players who fit in this bracket...play in the bracket. This gives players who currently have little chance competing in Advanced Masters...the opportunity to compete on a level intended by the ratings system.

So I will be playing in my rating bracket. Doesn't matter in which bracket it places me...and it doesn't matter if I win by large margins...heck...it doesn't matter when I lose by large margins either. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[sandalman]

cool! i can play in AM again!

According to your current rating, Pat, yes you can. My question is, will you? Why? Why not?

There are a few of my friends that are already doing this. I'd sure like to hear from them on what its done for them if anything?

Ching? Gimp? Jack? Bueller? /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[neonnoodle]

I don't know if I'm considered "your friend" /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif, but I play in my ratings based division whenever possible (which isn't often for an Open player). I caught surprisingly little flack for playing in the Silver division at this year’s Philadelphia Open, a PDGA RB-Tier event.

Personally, I would have liked to see more of the Open players that qualified for it play in the Silver division. Only one guy, who is a rising star, who qualified but chose to play in the Gold (Top) division cashed, the rest would have (for the most part) been competitive in the Silver division.

It’s going to take a few years for folks to get over their preconceived notions of what division is right for them after years of the “Move Up Move Up Move Out” mentality. So unless you are a streaking play who’s suddenly playing 5 strokes better than your average (another good reason to learn about and apply ratings to your casual play by knowing the WCP of the course and your Player Rating [PR]) I’d strongly advise giving your ratings division a try. If you feel like you crushed everyone too easily then one of two things happened:

1) Your PR has suddenly jumped and you really should be playing in the next higher division (which if true will show up in the next PR Update).
2) Many players that would have given you more stiff competition chose to play in the next higher division leaving you to stick out like a (dominant) sore thumb.

Either way, there should never be any feeling of guilt involved.

I'm starting to toy around with the idea that very few players are really that much better than everyone else, that what it really comes down to is some players just make fewer mistakes on average. Perhaps rather than looking at PRs as skill levels it is more a matter of folks being better or worse at eliminating mistakes for their rounds. (Deep, eh?)

[ching_lizard]

Mark, as much as i would like to poke fun at you [in good nature /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif] I will answer your question(s) in all seriousness.

I was one of the guys that decided early on, to give the new Am Divisional system a chance, playing within it for a year, and then evaluating my opinions about it.

I can say that without a doubt, aside from my divisional name [and I don't have a better alternative name] I am enjoying playing in tournaments a whole lot more these days.

Since its advent, I've logged about 20 some-odd rounds in MA3. Of those rounds, I've managed to be on the divisional "Leader Card" in several of those rounds. Sometimes I hung in there, sometimes I cratered, but overall, my scores have been pretty consistently similar to the scores/rounds I had before the new system. The only difference I've seen is that now I'm in a division with a whole lot of other folks that play pretty inconsistent golf too! /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif I've chased Todd Golden around in a couple of those tourneys and it has been a lot of fun and has established a very friendly and fun rivalry between us. (Right Todd?) New friends! /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

It rankles me that I can't compete in a higher divisional level...I'd really like to play better than I do. (Who can't say that? /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif ) But I will say this: It has also motivated me beyond words to play my buttocks off in order to be "forced" to move up to MA2. (I'm still not there yet. /msgboard/images/clipart/sad.gif )

Do I get a hard time about it? Yep. MaceMan called me a bagger at one of the Big Show awards ceremonies, and Oz has made similar remarks. All in good fun mind you, but it DOES bother me in some respects. When I dig real deep down inside myself about why it bothers me, at the root of it, is my own disappointment in myself at not playing better than I do. It isn't about the teasing, or the "bagger" comments because most of you guys know that I have a sense of humor...it's about the truth of me being lousy at playing disc golf...especially when I want to be better, and I'm so slow at getting there.

One thing I can say to you though is this: Playing the Recreation Division (MA3) has brought more fun back into the competition again. Especially when you realize that there are some faces that you will see over and over again, just like the Advanced Masters group of guys. My personal goal is to work my way back up into the OMB gang so that I can at least compete with them...

Is this what you were looking for? Playing in MA3 has made playing in tourneys fun and exciting for me again.

I really like the divisional structure, I had planned on moving to MA1 this year, due to peer pressure, but decided to see how I do, staying where I am, since many MA1's moved down, since thier rating allowed them. Actually, when the year started, my rating was MA3, but played MA2.
Overall, i am getting hammered in MA2, moreso than last year, with the exception of one event, I won, that was not sanctioned. My only suggestion, is adjusting where the divisions start and end, lowering them by about 25 points. Granted, there coudl be an MA1, with a 960-970 rating, still "bagging" by not going pro, but it woudl help them to realize, they ARE ready to move up.

just my 2¢...........

[sandalman]

By Nick Kight on Wednesday, May 14, 2003 - 07:25 am:

"I'm starting to toy around with the idea that very few players are really that much better than everyone else, that what it really comes down to is some players just make fewer mistakes on average. "

HOLY [*****]! now thats a concept! making fewer mistakes does NOT mean a player is better... it just means he made fewer mistakes!

i guess we are all as good as climo, we just make more mistakes! i feel sooo much better about myself now!

[sandalman]

markiepoo, no i'm not gonna play as MA2. reasons:

1. i like to play from the longer tees (some tourneys dont have ams on same tees as adv or open)

2. it has been my experience that ams, in general, do not have much regard for basic rules like foot placement, talking, and so forth. that bugs me.

3. there always seems to be an am on my card who complains after just about shot they take. they try a 450' annie around a big oak and thru a 20' tunnel on the S-out, then whine for 10 minutes when they dont hit it. that bugs me too - in the adv divisions, especially mm1, we all laugh at Randy's idiocy for attempting the shot in the first place. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

but the biggest reason i will stay as MM1 is...

4. i can WIN in mm1 !

Well, that's good reasoning Sandalman. You're biggest reason is the most valid, IMO, and is pretty much why I'm moving. Its not that I think I'll automatically walk in to MA3 and be able to win (I've never won anything except draw dubs with a great Pro partner), its that I think I can be competitive and thus increase my enjoyment of tourney play.

Your reason #2 is a source of concern for me. A lot of the folks in MA3 probably fall into the category of not having played all that long and lack tourney and rules experience. I too get disturbed by a lack of attention to those things. I'll let you know if it becomes enough of a problem for me to make me reconsider.

BTW, I know you can win in MM1. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[neonnoodle]

I think Climo among about 40 or so other 1010 players fit in that "very few players are really that much better than everyone else" criteria.

[27dogs]

mark don't do it. your going to play with those guys and end up liking them better and never come back. plus your going to make danny feel bad when he beats you /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

[testap]

I just started a little over a year ago. I played in the dallas round up last year and finished 3rd. I played T10 in Waco last year, took 2nd or 3rd. I played novice in both events. My rating is an 860. I went to Waco Charity last weekend and played up to Intermediate (my first Inter. event)and was called a bagger all weekend.Ha.. I took second place. I am not a bagger, I just played well. If I feel that I can be cometitive on the Advanced level, before my points tell me so, I will move up again. To the people moving down to where their points put them, don't move down JUST because of the points, move down because you know you can't compete at the higher level yet!! Forget all the BAGGER crrrap and play where YOU belong. So to me the points are only about half usefull. What about the players who are not PDGA members? How can we gauge them? I think the novice division is ruined by people who shouldn't be there. I almost think the answer is to make a PDGA membership mandatory in all tournaments. That way a PROPER gauge can be set. Give the TRUE Novs a fighting chance. These are just the words of a Novice (to the game) according to my player rating!! Ha

P.T. #20939

Frank, the whole reason I'm doing this is so that I can work on my ability to play better in tourneys so that I CAN come back to OMB and maybe get to play on a card with you on Sundays, when it counts.

And, who are you kidding? Danny beating me would make both of you feel good. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

"but it woudl help them to realize, they ARE ready to move up." Right cong - not. Just look at the scores over the past year to see that the number of people beaten does not directly relate to players moving up...

IMO you are wrong that a 900 rated player (a true 900, not someone who is improving at a fast rate or just has one below average tournament under their belt) should be forced to play in the top AM division. From some of the events I have calculated ratings on, a 900 rated player would have to play almost 3 to 4 strokes better PER ROUND to take last cash in MA1 and this is even with many sub 925 rated never cashing guys still playing MA1. Now if you want to argue that the divisional break should be smaller, say 885-925, that might make sense, but to argue that 960 and 970 MA1 players who really have no business not playing pro anyway should be allowed to fatten up on even more AMS who have no chance to even CASH is just plane silly.

I think by having the top am division be an elite class of players, the fields will be small, competitive and very fun for these players. I also think that it may actually cause players to move to pro FASTER. Why play MA1 and win most every time when you are a 960-975 rated player when you can actually get more cash in pro than you are getting prize wise in am? Besides a small pecker, I can really see no reason /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

You are no bagger paul, just a player on the rise who was playing good golf! Take it as a compliment! /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

[27dogs]

naw he thinks your a god. i 've got to work on his judgement /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif actually i'll support you and randy both with a little smack on the side/msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

That's acceptable Frank. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

“Anyone else doing this?”

Yes, I moved down to my real rating bracket this year. Last year after getting married, putting on a couple of pounds and having no time to practice, my game dropped from sometimes cashing advanced player to almost always bob-card-participant. You don’t get better when you are on the bob card every tourney…

“For what reasons?”

I wanted to have fun again. If I play well in MA2 (which I have not been), I will cash and maybe even be in the hunt near the end of the tourney. If I play bad I will not cash (like this weekend). I like the lower entry fees and the flatter payout. If I play decent golf I like walking away with something (even as a disc dealer, I STILL like walking away with something if I beat a bunch of people!). Speaking of flater payout, I am starting to feel VERY STRONGLY that MA1 should have 50% payout. More reason for people to move to pro if they have game and more motivation for the middle of the pack guys.

“Caught any flack about it yet?”

TONS. I still have not figured out why so many people think it is a terrible thing I am playing MA2 now. I guess I should be playing MA1 and out of the cash by 30 strokes a tournament, gezzzz, give me a break. Just because I play lots of tournaments, does not mean I am a very good player. I just laugh at pros who call me a bagger.

“Glad you did or wish you hadn't?” Very glad. I love playing with MA2’s who for the most part are still just playing for fun and don’t think they need to be shooting -14 every round like most of the advanced guys. Yes, I have to get on them about the rules sometimes, but if you do it in a cool way, the learn and it does not add tension.

My only problem with the system right now is that the PDGA still does not get it. Why do we have TONS of results posted for this year and NO RATINGS yet for ANY 2003 events. It is the 5th freaking month of the year and I have played a TON OF EVENTS. Priority number one should be ratings over results, points and cash standings IMO. Those things are nice, but have zero effect on the events happening every week right now. There are guys in Texas who have played 4 or 5 or more sanctioned events and have ratings based off of a two round event in February of last year, or no rating at all… The PDGA needs to plan on getting these ratings out more often if it is actually going to work. Look at the winners from the top of any MA2 and most MA3 division over the past few months and you will find players with no ratings or incomplete ratings (based on just a couple of rounds).

Good luck with the move Mark, I think you are really going to like playing MA3. Just don’t let guys who can shoot 6 on the bEast get you down and have fun!

[testap]

Thanks Gimp. I will prob. play Inter. for a couple of more tourny's and compare my scores to the Advanced division. We'll see where that takes me. I would have finished 10th at Waco in Adv. but I would have been in the hunt. I am all about bigger payout, and maybe getting to where I can cash $$!!! Still a few years out.. Ha

Remember the short boxes Paul? You prob. would not have finished 10th /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

[testap]

Did it look like I had a prob throwing long to you?? A 3 on 18 East could have been a skip in 2!! HA HA I would have perfered the longs on Old Cameron. The shorts made me blow by a few holes 10 and 11. Wouldn't have changed too much. 10 was a lock!! HA

A 3 on #18 East, huh? Thanks so much for mentioning that. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[testap]

sorry, I forgot about the demonic vanishing

No sweat, I've called the Scooby gang to investigate. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

LMAO.....Paul, it doesnt matter what division you play, if you do well, you will hear the "BAGGER" calls, even occationally in the pro ranks, just for humor.

Gimp, ratings have been updated more than once already this year. At least MINE has.....

Cong, they've been updated twice, but with last year's stats. That's not what the Gimpy one is referring to. I too think that if the ratings system is to work, timely quarterly updates will be absolutely necessary. Especially with all the events on the calendar these days.

Yep Cong - think about how many events you have played this year. Now think about the fact that ZERO, NONE, NADA of those events effect your current rating. Think about all the new members and new tournament players Texas has this year. Now think about the fact that ZERO, NONE, NADA of these players even have ratings...

Paul. When you play the long boxes in advanced at Waco, you can talk to me about how they don't make the course harder. lol Lets see...

10 goes from a difficult deuce with ob being more in play (alos more overhanging limbs from that long box) to an easy deuce from the short box.

11 changes from a roller or very difficult annie bringing ob much more into play into an easy deuce opportunity with ob not being much in play

15 long has ob water you can drop into if you don't get through that gap off the tee and the added distance to bring the ob more into play. 15 Short is MUCH more deucable and much harder to take a 4 on that 15 long.

16 does not really make that much of a difference.

On average, you are going to play a stroke or two better from the shorts. There is less trouble to get into and more deuce opportunities in general.

I moved down from to my rating, played well, had my first time to be on top of card, had my first crater from top of card, had my firt exp. being pencil whipped! (walk back to tourney central with the cards or with the person holding them is the lesson I learned from that one.)

now going back to advanced! I played in gimps tourney the other day, and there were only six people playing adv. (bunch of crap!) I did play many times better than when I was bagging in rec. It is pretty simple if you are not having fun, go play casual and save the cash, and work on your skills, at no cost!

I guess when i looked at my rating breakdown a while ago, it it having alot of 2K3 events, and it saying they were included, was misleading, thus the reason I said they had been.

I am curious, why it excldes bad rounds, but includes the rounds you smoked, well over your rating. Either include all rounds, or exclude the 1 or two really hot rounds too, if you want it to be fair.

40 points below are not included, 90 above are......weird.

Cong, must be Microsoft issues /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

thats for wwworker /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[testap]

All the holes you mentioned have to be put in perspective. All those holes would have been played for 3 (for me) not 2 because of the low trees and added distance. Yes I can throw a drive that will reach for 2 but in tourny's, I try to be smart and pick 2's not force them. 15 I forgot about for sure. I hated it short!!! So scared in that wind that my disc would carry into the river or that the up shot would roll down the hill. That is definately a hole you can take a 4 on in the long. I took a circle 4 from the short.haha
alright man we'll see you around..BAGGER.....HA

oh, Mark, where is the fx, and stickers?

I'm fairly new to disc-golf. Played my first mini in July and first tourney in October. I play in advanced masters and would not move down(although player rating would definately allow it)because I really enjoy the people and always have fun(even if I do always have one blow up round!)Mark and Randy, move if u must, but I personally will miss u guys and you both always compete well with me.
As for being called a bagger, I was called that in my first am-Int mini, so as soon as my scores were a bit more consistent I moved up to help my game and learn from the big boys (thanks Ric Johnson, Larry Thompson, Randy Wimm, etc..)I think playing with these guys has improved my skill level as well as learning the rules etc...
I was a USPTA tennis pro for 19 years and watched many players loose their love for the game over the years, many thinking the system wasn't fair. As for me if you tee from the same box and throw to the same basket what's not fair about that?
To all you guys that work so hard to provide a venue for us all to have fun competitive play, I thank you! You guy's make it all possible and I for one am very grateful.(at last a sport I can play with my lousy knees!)

Paul, fyi, you can't beat Gimp in the play by play, hole by hole war! /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[bruce_brakel]

I moved down sort of, from Am Master to Am II. I don't need protection from young guys. I need protection from guys who are good!

I've had as much fun playing Am II as Am Master. I'd rather beat twenty or thirty young guys than eight or ten geezers.

I'd rather hear from the players who are not moving down. Do you really think you improve faster by donating to a division where you are not competitive? It's not like baseball or tennis where you are playing against the opponent, learning to hit a faster serve or curvier pitch. You are playing against the course, which often is the same course regardless of which division you play.

[testap]

yeah I figured that out when I realized I was bored off my *** just typing my own message..HAHAHA I'll just stick to beating Gimp from the leader card...HAHAHA j/k gimp

P.T.

Bruce, I have not moved down from Advanced Master to Intermediate (or whatever the terminology is nowadays) although my rating would allow it. I'm still competitive although seem to be in a bit of a slump this year compared to last.

I think the big difference is that although it's you versus the course, in the lower divisions you can make more mistakes and get away with it because your score will be competitive anyway. Most of the other guys are making mistakes too.

The difference in the more advanced divisions is that you make a few of these same mistakes and you will be at the bottom of the pack because your competition makes a lot less of them.

I don't know how clearly I'm explaining this but in other words by staying where I am I have to play almost flawless golf to cash which I hope will make me improve my consistency and ultimately help my game.

Beating me on the course is never something worthy of bragging about lol /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

Not always, anyway.....Every dog has his day!

I just hope my only one, was'nt at the Houston Hangover!!

[testap]

by the way Gimp, thanks a lot for the trade. that QJ is great.

No prob. I can't wait to try out that Valk as a roller. If it does not work well I might be trading it back to you /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

Here we go again! It's not moving down when you are playing in your rating bracket. We can all play Open. Then we can all say we are moving down when we play Advanced...all the while, our rating is recreational.

Do what you like. For some...playing up will improve their game. For others...it will hurt their game.

Most peoples games will improve through practice. Not unlike most sports.

As for who I will have the most fun with....I have fun with everyone. I had a blast in Advanced. I have a blast in Advanced Master. And if my rating ever goes lower...I'll have a blast in Intermediate.

What most people miss when discussing divisions and brackets is the fact that the bulk of players will never reach high pinnacles of success. Many will never be able to compete on the highest amateur level...and these numbers and ratios will increase EVERY year.

Advanced Master in the state of Texas is no picnic. Scores shot in Advanced Master at most tournaments, would place high in the cash in the Advanced division, and one of the top Advanced players in the state is over 40. The skill level is high...and most of the players are not chomping at the bit to turn Pro.

While this talent level continues to rise...lower rated players are welcome to compete. The reason doesn't matter. But you can bet...the move up/stay up mentality of the past will continue to hold the sport back.

It is paramount that lesser skilled players in amateur divisions are provided fields in which they can compete. Every person that plays above their bracket...while maybe fulfilling their needs...is disassociating themselves from their like competitors. In many cases, their like competitiors need them to help provide the field in which they can be competitive.

It's the same thing that happens on a local level...good Advanced players play Open. So Intermediate players play Advanced. So whenever there's someone new...there's nobody for them to play with. They are competing in Advanced...in a mirage...because the Advanced players are playing in Open.

Yes...players are free to play up...for whatever reason. But players who play in their rating bracket are the ones who are doing the best thing for everyone.

Anyone who can regularly win in a lower bracket will be forced to move up because of a rating. It's one of the main reasons the thing was put into effect. If players start to dominate brackets...the PDGA will find it necessary to speed up the process and have ratings updated much sooner. Or...we might find out that the system has many flaws. How the heck are we going to find out if nobody plays in their bracket?

In the end, as the player base continues to grow, I suspect that players will have to earn their way into brackets. Then they will have to defend their right to stay. You know...like most sports.

Very well said, RW. Problem is, some of us have been listening to you say that for 3 years...and some of us will never listen. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[27dogs]

randy your so full of [*****]; your an advanced player so is mark. you both had a [*****] tourny. get over it.

Really good points randy. Here is a good question then (I hope). If people need to play in their specific bracket to see if their are/are not flaws in the ratings system, shouldn't it be mandatory that people play in their correct bracket and not be allowed to move up?
Which then means the ratings need to be updated much more frequently.

That's funny! Me, an Advanced player? Bless you Frank, you're too kind. Full of it, perhaps, but too kind nonetheless. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[27dogs]

i thought you would like that /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

IMO No Michael, you should never limit a player who is improving and wants to get better by playing up. They would need to come out with ratings AT LEAST once a month if you had to EARN your way into the next division...

[mitchjustice]

Gimp is right there...we have a guy in Texas with a 905 rating that won an advanced event by 8 stokes...putting him in jr. weenie would not be correct

People like that playing up aren't the problem that RW's referring to, Mitch. I'm sure you know that. Besides, if you're talking about the kid that I think you are, his rating won't be that for long. He's only been playing tourneys for a little over a year, he told me. WOW!

i think the mental game is a big part of this.

mark tells himself that he does not have the skill set to be an adv player.

from my perspective when you do that to yourself you have lessened your chance of improving... but that is just the way I look at things.

for instance there have been times where a VERY GOOD old guy from Mobile, Al (that normally plays OPEN) would jump into MASTERS when the really big open guns would show up for an event.

most of the other masters would hang their head and say "sheet, that bagger" and mope around.

to me you are eliminating most of your chances of playing well if you take such a defeatist attitude.

from my perspective-- i like to use folks like that as motivation when they jump from OPEN into MASTER... or i perhaps should say that is what works to motivate me.

the last time the "bagging master" signed up in the Advil League-- i shot an -11 in the morning round and held on to the lead in the afternoon round and beat one of the best masters aged guys (imo) in the south by five strokes.

my longwinded point is... if i would have told myself i can't beat that guy-- i wouldn't have.

by keeping a more postive and competitive outlook-- my self let my self do well.

that mindset can work for ANYONE imo...

[neonnoodle]

Is this sort of like you telling yourself you can't be a PDGA member?

[neonnoodle]

You are not your game, i.e. dheads at the top on occasion. Playing within a skill range that might be your alltime peak is an option just now possible and just now advisable. No one should feel bad about their rating or for playing in any division for which they qualify. This is a far cry from folks having nothing to stop them from taking advantage of less skilled players regularly.

That gig is up!

no nick, it would be like not supporting an organization for doing things to divisions that i do not agree with-- not to mention legends in their own minds such as you.

Mark, it seems like you and I have a lot in common (and I'm not just talking about how we like to wear women's underwear). I have been playing Advanced ever since my 2nd tourney (3 years ago), when I took 3rd in Intermediate. Unfortunately, since then I have never cashed in Advanced (or even been close). I thought playing Advanced would help, but when you are always on the last card or 2nd to last card you don't play with guys that can really help you improve your game (at least not in the Northeast).

This year, I will be playing Intermediate (my rating is 875, but I wouldn't feel right playing Rec, even if it drops a point). I am hoping that playing closer to the top of the board will help my game more than playing in Advanced has. I also have been more serious about practicing lately, which I'm sure will help even more.

[neonnoodle]

Oh, I don't know about that, sounds more like poor attitude and being a "QUITTER" rather than a worker.

[rhett]

There is nothing wrong with playing where you rating dictates.

[rhett]

I believe that "pros" with 910 ratings should be allowed to play Intermediate where they would be competitive. They might even keep playing tournaments forever that way, instead of tiring of paying all their cash to the same guys all the time and losing by 30 strokes.

[rhett]

Disc golf should be fun, but paying $70 to play against people who slaughter you easily could stop being fun after a while.

i do not financially support stuff i do not agree with. you will never see me sending money to the religious reich. as consumers, our most powerful tool or voice is our pocketbook.

it does not surprise me if you do not understand that concept, king of all yes men.

you are welcome to do what you want and support who you want.

all kidding aside, what it boils down to, i really do not give a schit what you think, captian touron.

Rhett,
I agree with you on this subject. However, I think one should never lose their prespective as far as getting better is concerned. If getting better is your only reasoning in moving you might want to rethink. You will improve at a faster rate playing with better players. If you are moving for Mark's reasons, to become competitive again to rediscover the joy you once had, then I understand the move. Just my thinking on this subject.

[neonnoodle]

Then why are you repling to me. Something to prove? A chip on your shoulder perhaps?

And as other have pointed out, you have a problem supporting stuff you do not agree with, yet here you are enjoying the very benefits provided by the support of those who may have doubts but don't qqquit.

Why don't you take a long walk off a short bayou?

[neonnoodle]

Jerry,

That is not necessarily true. It may be the case for fast rising stars, but some folks simply will never have a rating of 1000. This system and the PDGA wants them to know that there is a place for them, ALWAYS, within our competitive system. ALWAYS.

"Disc golf should be fun, but paying $70 to play against people who slaughter you easily could stop being fun after a while."

Very fast indeed...

[neonnoodle]

They need a secure and welcoming place within our competitive system. This is a gap that I would like to see filled sooner rather than later, when we have already lost these valuable long time members/players.

Hey Jerry and Wwwworker. Tons of players are not ever going to reach 925 level golf, even if they practice. I know it is hard for guys with lots of skills to truly walk in the shoes of players like this, but believe me, they are out there. I know as a true 900ish hacker, I would not have played nearly as many tournaments this year if I still had to donate in Advanced. Would this be better for the game? Better for the trees yes, but probably not for the game. Now there is a place for everyone to compete. Sounds good to me! /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

Gimp
I agree with you and Nick. I only suggested that if your intention was to improve you "might" want to play up. Not you have to. That is the very reason I support the rating system in the Am's. I only call it arbitrary in the Pro division because it has not been around long enough to be considered 100% accurate. Plus I think any pro division should forget about ratings. It only serves to split up a division into smaller divisions. I am completely for it in the amature ranks and do not want anyone forced up.

[neonnoodle]

Then I'd argue seriously for those players who are peaked at around 940 to 970 to move back to the Amateur ranks. A donating pro is a formula for a shortlived disc golf life.

[rhett]

I've been trying to be less of a spelling nazi, but wwwwwww needs to learn how to spell "captain" or else explain the joke to me! "Captian[sic] Touron" is his phrase of the week, so I just want to help him out or be clue'd in on it. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[rhett]

Jerry,

You don't like ratings for the pro division, but what about the 910-920 rated donators that have no choice about where to play?

I think we should dump the "pro" and "am" designations because everybody knows the skill designation ladder goes like this:

Rec
Int
Adv
Open

Get rid of this "am eligibility concept" and put a cap on Advanced. Play where your rating allows. If you don't want plastic and you were a "pro" with a 910 rating, keep donating. Oh, and drop Open entry fees to $50 or less. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

I would like to commend all of you on a very good discussion. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Michael...if ratings could be updated on a perpetual basis (a week after each tournament)...It would be great to have to earn your next bracket.

Until then...players should play where they truly want to play. The first encouragement should be to play in their bracket. The second should be for those who are on the rise...to play above their bracket.

Yes...players on the rise in the amateur ranks...should be encouraged to move up as soon as they can compete at the next level...all the way to Advanced.

Here's the kicker...players who move up to the next level...but do not succeed at that level...should be encouraged to play in their rating bracket.

It sounds like a bunch of fluff...but I believe this "encouragement" thing is much more important than perceived. I think it needs to come from the top...I think it needs to be in the magazine...I think TD's should be reminded...and so on...to try and put a dent in the "bad encouragement" that this sport has suffered from.

And I totally disagree with Rhett's last proposal. But we agree on the base of thinking.

I think players who were "encouraged" to move into the "professional" ranks...who are unhappy with their "professional" experience...for whatever reason...should be encouraged to give up "professional" status and enter into their amateur rated bracket.

I think the top amateur division should be one which is full of very good players...who basically fit into 2 categories:

Those who have peaked...just below competitive Pro status. And those, who given the right circumstances...could see a rise in their game which would give them reason to pursue a professional disc golf career.

I think as the game progresses...this is the way to go. The Professional fields would have less players who simply cannot compete...this is a good thing.

The highest amateur field would be quite noteworthy...and very difficult to compete in. Being the amateur world champion would be quite prestigious in the eyes of amateurs.

As this evolution would be taking place...there would be need for more divisions at the lower levels...and as these divisions became more and more distanced from the top amateur division...they would take on a more recreational feel. Most of us who disagree on many issues...do agree that there is a need for amateur tournaments which do not revolve around the serious play that results in high entry fees and big merchandise payouts.

There are many who think there should be lower professional divisions. I heartily disagree. I think the professional divisions should be exclusive in their talent base.

And I think players who cannot compete at the current level of play it takes to compete in Open...are amateurs. They are either limited by talent or lack of ability to pursue the sport on a professional level. In either case...I think the amateur ranks could use their participation.

I had the opportunity to briefly discuss this topic with one of the top Advanced players in the country for the last few years who "through encouragement", moved up last year. He is not happy with the move. I believe he would be happy playing in the top amateur division...against top amateurs of today...and top amateurs of yesterday who likewise are not happy as "professionals".

Who knows...given a renewed sense of meaningful competition...in very talented fields...people might be suprised to see their games actually progress to the point where they are able to compete for the real prize?

[thcplz]

ok finally finished reading,

i played int. for 1 1/2yrs(since i started playing tourneys mostly Z10's)
with a 2nd(outlaws) and 1st(octoberfest) finishes.
until this latest update, i had a ZERO rating.when it came out, i had 923.can't wait to see where it goes with the almost dfl finish in victoria.
i had moved up to advance, even though skillwise probably not quite ready. (those stupid mistakes that you can't afford to make, i can 4 putt with the best of them, right martyr/msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif).
i could have stayed down this year with not toooo much RAZZZING(at least that i couldn't have handled). i figured that i needed to move up to improve my game,(i can name 4-5 people that beat me routinely that are still down in int. now i get to heckle them about bagging).with my current work schedule practise doesn't come easy.

so far i've donated in the two tourney's i played in this year,but at least i'm having fun.
COTO won't be any different,let's see my personal best at pease is -3(21 set-up). all this week i haven't shot better than 3.i keep hearing about 6-9 down, thats scarey. even with -3 to even, that's barely going to be middle of the pack.


i'm ADVANCED, if i can't cash then i need to play better. if i can't play better, practise more....
seems so simple, just not that EZ!

Randy,
"And I think players who cannot compete at the current level of play it takes to compete in Open...are amateurs. They are either limited by talent or lack of ability to pursue the sport on a professional level. In either case...I think the amateur ranks could use their participation."
I'm sure you feel as though the amature ranks could use their participation, this coming from an admitted lifetime amature. If the PDGA rewards players for staying in an amature division for life it risks deminishing the open numbers which in turn will hurt their growth projections. However, I have a suggestion that maybe everyone could live with. Use the rating system for everyone, all PDGA members regardless of division, and allow a player to play anywhere his rating allows. No process of asking the PDGA in writing to go back to amature status and waiting for their response. This way more players might step up for a while knowing they could go back to their rating level if it does not work out to their satisfaction. Meanwhile, players in the Pro level could go backwards to their level as well if they found themselves donating on a regular basis. Baggers as we know it might disappear altogether. Lifers in amature levels would not dominate on any regulr basis, not saying you do, but it would make it more competitive in the amature levels while creating larger fields in the pro's. Even if the fields were made up of fluxuateing players bounceing back and forth between amature and pro.
I cannot believe I got all of that out. I am not even sure it would work. What do you think?
I still think Pro players have no reason to be rated, but if we are going to move players around between divisions(Masters with 1000 ratings must play open) then it would only be fair to allow pro's with ratings lower than their level to drop back to amature without going through some long drawn out process.

[rhett]

Well, I can see that Jerry's been reading the whole thread. He just needs to work on learning how to cite his references!

Or I could just say, "It's like deja vu all over again." /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

typical...whatever you do...don't diminish the Open field.

That would be the field that anyone can play in...if their little ol heart desires.

BUT DON'T DIMINISH IT.

what a twittish line of thinking

[neonnoodle]

Easy there Randy, there really is no need to be confrontational about this. Jerry is at least taking your ideas into consideration even though he's coming out somewhere else.

I more or less agree with where RW is on this. Somehow we have to figure out how to remove the dead end aspect of the Open division. The Open division is all well and good if your skills are on a fast rise towards 1000 rating, but for far too many it becomes the killing field. Where they turn pro and never approach the skill level necessary to compete. This is not due necessarily to lack of practice, it has to do with their "Skill Level", which just isn't up to the challenge of competing with folks that average scratch golf.

These folks need a place to play without the stigma of "well you just don't practice enough" or "you aren't trying enough". Those insults are easy enough for those who do either practice enough or just have the innate skill level to compete on that level to say, but they are blatantly self-serving for those who feed off of donators of the Open division. This at the expense of keeping more highly skilled (though not the highest) players active in competitive organized PDGA disc golf.

A Players Rating ceiling in the Amateur Class, at this stage of our development, would serve only to provide donators, not competitors, to the Pro Class. Even within Pure Ratings Based competitions (R-Tiers) I oppose the current practice of giving amateurs in the Gold division only the choice of cash or nuttin', when in all other divisions (Silver, Bronze, etc.) they are able to accept prizes in lieu of cash. TDs certainly don't mind giving out prizes rather than cash for obvious reasons. And though I agree that there is a lack of clear distinction between what it means to be an Amateur and what it means to be a Professional, I still believe that the distinction is an important one to maintain and even improve. We need symbiosis not competition between the two.

I am hopeful that with the implementation and future enhancements to the PDGA Am Plan that the benefits inherently present within this system will spark a top to bottom reconfiguration resulting in a competitive system capable of serving well the needs of players of all ages, genders, and most importantly skill levels. I am very confident that we will in fact get there. Yes, and some in positions of privilege might well have to give up some of that privilege in order for all of us to enjoy the ultimate privilege of a fair fun competitive system.

This is not a bash on what we have, just a statement that it can and will be better.

I appreciate all the input I've gotten here. It was inevitable that this discussion would de-evolve into the standard ratings talk and the Open divisions dicussions. But, that's perfectly okay too. I really appreciated reading the posts from people who are contemplating doing what I'm getting ready to do, who have already done it and those who don't wnat to do it and their reasons.

One theme that seems to be recurring is the "you only get better by playing with better players," notion. Well, I agree with that to a degree, he11, its how I got my nickname after all. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif What I'd like to stress, as it applies to my situation, is that you don't get better by being on the DFL card every time out. In fact, I believe this constant reminder that my tournament skills $uck has done more damage to my confidence and thus my ability to play up to my skill level than anything else.

Here's the deal, I know I'm a better player than I show in competitive rounds. I have adequate distance, decent mechanics and can on occasion be a skilled putter. I'm looking for a way to build my confidence in those skills by playing in a division that leaves me in a competitive situation longer than just the 1st round of a two-day event.

I'm not looking at my move down to play within my MA3 rating as a way to hang around in a division where I can get some plastic, I have plenty of that. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif I'm hoping that by building my confidence in the skills that I already have, I can find a way to learn to keep playing at that level during tournament rounds, thus allowing me to march back up the ratings based divisions as a better tournament player.

Its kind of like starting over, or at least that's what it feels like. That doesn't bother me at all. Its not where I am that I'm focused on, its where I'm going. I'm never gonna be Ken or Barry, but I do feel that if I can find a way to improve my mental approach to competitive disc golf, I'll eventually be competitive every time out in MM1. That'll be good enough for me.

Mark, it begins simply with the words you use! I suggest reading the four agreements by Don Miguel Ruiz! WORDS ARE VERY POWERFUL!

and it has less words to read than Nick's post! /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif sorry could not resist

You all make good points. Sorry Rhett, that was only something that came out after a few beers and was meant as something to think about. You know , putting heads together to come up with something better. That is why I said "I think."

[sandalman]

actually, matchu, get your statistics correct before you make those accusations.

on this thread:

Randy: 4 posts, 1455 words, 7170 characters
Average words per post: 363.8
Average characters per word: 4.93

Nick: 10 posts, 1114 words, 5024 characters
Average words per post: 111.4
Average characters per word: 4.51

it is clear that randy's posts are by far longer than nick's.

randy also favors bigger words, probably to highlight his superior mental functioning.

but the bottom line really just seems to be that ON AVERAGE, it take randy 3 times longer to say the same thing nick says : NOTHING!


/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Now dat wuz funny! /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

True, True

ROFLMAO

/msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

[circle_2]

/msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

[neonnoodle]

Pat has his moments. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[rhett]

Nick,

You are missing the cornerstone of my proposal for a ratings cap on Advanced: the elimination of the pro and am distinctions and the concept of "am eligibility". People play where their ratings put them. What a concept! A 920 rated former "pro" can play Advanced or even intermediate! It's not a "killing field" when the low ratings donators can escape.

Those misguided message board posters that think I am a cheerleader for the Open Pro division should think through the ramifications of this plan. It will basically kill the pro purse as all the forced donators will no longer be limited to the two choices of "donate with no chance" or "quit". They will be able to play in a competitive division. After all, I thought that was what the ratings were all about. Too bad all those ratings gurus were wrong in thinking that inequities existed in the Am ranks when it is the Open Pro division that is the one that is screwed up!

[neonnoodle]

Chuck Kennedy is the only person deserving of the title "Ratings Guru".

Rhett, there is an option already provided by the PDGA for the proposal you make. It is called the R-Tier. I like it for a whole host of reasons, many of which you touch on. Still, there is a lot of the old Pro Class system that is very much liked by current PDGA members, Masters division being the main one. Besides Open players can already apply to the PDGA for reinstatement to the Amateur Class.

I do not think that anyone should ever be forced to become a professional. It would loose all of its meaning to be a pro if players were forced to join it. It would also I am convinced result in the loss of a great many members and players at our events.

I don't have the answer for how to solve this, I do however feel strongly that it needs to be dealt with and the sooner the better. Currently the only folks essentially forced to play against competitors vastly superior in quantifiable skill to them are Pro Class players.

Currently I have a player rating, well deserved I might add, of 957, not even on average as good as many of the Advanced players, yet because I have won cash, years ago I have no option but to either sit out or donate at events around our region. (Yes, perhaps this is a bad attitude, but it is equally an instance of realistically looking at my skill level since 1998.) Obviously I have found many reasons to stay involved, but I would be even more so if I had a division with greatly reduced entry fees and an outside chance of competing.

I love disc golf, and I love competing in PDGA events, they're certifiably great! What I need is a place for me and those in a similar boat to compete and be a part of the PDGA competitive system, other than as donators. I don't have the answer, but I will keep on looking. The closest things so far are the Pure Ratings Based Competitions. I'd like to see the lessons learned there and in the Am Class be brought to the Pro Class. I have to believe that we will figure it out sooner or later. Hopefully sooner.

[ck34]

I don't see ratings formally applied to pro divisions until such time as a national sponsor adding big cash appears, or the tour cumulatively has sufficient added cash overall to justify a procedure to qualify for an elite touring pro card. I think the Competition Committee supports the idea of a tour card but most feel it's premature. In the mean time, hosting ratings events or a series, in my case, is a way to provide an option for lower level pros to compete and have a chance without reverting to Am status.

In the long run, the flaw with the simplified approach proposed by Rhett, where someone can smoothly move between Advanced and Pro at around 975, is that the older divisions would have few or no pros at all. Peter Shive is the top rated Sr GM with around a 945 rating and no Legends are over 900. There are only a handful of GMs over 975. So we might need a separate definition for those over 50. Women would of course have to have their own ratings breaks since no woman up to now has ever had a rating over 975.

[sandalman]

maybe we should require a MINIMUM rating for people to play in open divisions. let us seek to qualify as pros.

in effect we have a dual system now. there are people who have never cashed in an open field, and those people are free to play wherever their rating dictates. then there are those who have cashed as pros and who are required to play only in the open divisions.

abolish this duality! if a players rating is below the pro qualifier rating (say about 980) then let them play in adv. who cares if they took cash in an open C tier division with seven players in 1992.

a rating should make someone a pro... not a fluke cash.

it seems to me that a couple of years back when these ratings discussions got more... lets say, intense-- i recall reading the ratings cheerleader disc_ussion posts about how the ratings system is for the Am divs and not the Pros.

did i misunderstand? am i remembering incorrectly?

or did you guys change your minds? or did you intend that from the start and just kinda hide that fact?

please explain.

Don't forget this point, no one is forcing the AM players that play Open to take the cash.
If you are playing tourneys for the money, this is probably the wrong sport for ya!!

In the last few weeks I have seen it all with divisions.

My one buddy just bumped back down to Int. Am. to regain his confidence (he DNF 2 tourneys and came in last in 1). While my other buddy, has played some Open Masters for the experience. He would have cashed, but did not take the money. He knew that he was not ready for the move yet.

Myself, I am happy staying in Adv. Am. until I can put the darn putter in the basket consistently from 30 feet.

I have already learned some stuff in Adv. that I would have never seen in Int. Am. because there was no one to learn from.
I like the brackets and only wish that the ratings came out more often. Anyone hear of Excel or Visual Basic around here???


My 2 pennies.

An update.

The first symptoms of change evident since my impending move down to my ratings bracket has been that:

1) I'm looking forward to my next event with a different kind of anticipation than I've had for quite some time. I always look forward to playing events, especially ZT10 events, but I'm really stoked about next weekend at Live Oak. Who knows, I could get smacked around in any division with the way I played in Waco, but for some reason there's less of a resignation that I'm just automatically showing up to be a face in the crowd.

2) Putting practice. It seems to be more fun and more productive lately. /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

Just thought I'd share.

[27dogs]

if you come in dfl in adva. mstr. think how your gonna feel dfl in novice /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif look out novice women. mary, i meen mark will be playing with you soon./msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif next stop, junior handicap games. they don't have d.g so mark is guaranteed 1rst./msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif see there is a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow/msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

Its a good thing you used a lot of smileys in that post, Frank. Otherwise people might think you're a mean spirited prick. Oh, wait, nevermind.

/clipart/smile.gif

[27dogs]

Mark, some of us know how he is!! I do my best to stop him from saying that kind of stuff but I can only do so much:o
Shari

At least I know someone in that household is on my side. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[rhett]

wwwwwww,

I haven't seen a single "ratings cheerleader" from the old days embrace the new call to elimate the pro and am designations and let everybody, not just the current "ams", play where their rating dictates.

I was sure opposed to the ratings. I only remember Chuck and Nick rah-rah-ing, and they havent' jumped on board the new paradigm....yet!

[rhett]

Hey studmanMark,

Your buddy that turned down pro master cash TURNED DOWN NATIONAL TOUR PRO MASTER CASH! That's quite a bit different than declining $12 in little c-tier. Plus he's been killing the Advanced Master field, so maybe he is ready. Doesn't matter to me since I've been playing like crap and finishing at the bottom anyway, but if your buddy can cash in an NT he's ready.

[neonnoodle]

Rhett, I think the R-Tier already addresses your concerns. The only thing I would change about it, other than tinkering with the ratings breaks, is to allow Ams to accept prizes in lieu of cash in ALL of the divisions, not just the ones below the top. It hurts no one to do this in my opinion.

studly doright said:

I have already learned some stuff in Adv. that I would have never seen in Int. Am.

..........

go figure.

if some of these ratings folks could see the forest for the trees, they might learn from the studly guy.

to me the underachieving system that the ratings cheerleaders have created works against the concept that the stud points out.

if you tell yourself that you aren't that good you will not likely get better. the human body has a funny way of listening to the brain.

if you buy into an entire system that tells you that you have limited skills and herds you like cattle into a lesser skilled competitive environment, well-- you will likely NEVER get better.

osmosis works. the underdog mentality is far better than a defeatist mentality, imo.

good for you stud! imo, you will continue to get better because you have faith in your abilities and have not let others convince you should be competing against lesser skilled golfers.

Rhett, I think that our buddy will move up to Open next year, he is itching for a Chrome Roc this year, however!!!

I am with you on the playing like crap this year, I can't seem to get 3 decent rounds together.
Even though, at San Diego I would have came in 2nd in Int. Ams. I sure did not feel like I deserved it!!!

Keep Hacking out there, boys!!

[rhett]

Mark, I won't hold it against him unless he doesn't move up next year! /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif I'm all for finishing the series and making the run at the Coveted Chrome Roc. (Aero, actually.)

Hey wwwwwworker - when are you going to move up to open and learn from some of those more skilled players?

[neonnoodle]

Yeah, here's some good advice for you:

"if you tell yourself that you aren't that good you will not likely get better. the human body has a funny way of listening to the brain.

if you buy into an entire system that tells you that you have limited skills and herds you like cattle into a lesser skilled competitive environment, well-- you will likely NEVER get better.

osmosis works. the underdog mentality is far better than a defeatist mentality, imo."

Move Up! And stop being so defeatist. You can do it! Kenny, Ron, Cam and Barry will make you a better player... /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

That is what I say! Move up wwwworker - follow your own advice! /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

WWW, would have to step DOWN to play open/msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif Gimp what about you? move up? Rhett,if you ever go pro (I dought it)I don't think you will play open,(you know you WOULD play masters/msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif)or you would be playing advance right now,Rhett don't need ya on your side/msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif Gimp you see Victor in Houston whats up??

Just because I like Victor when I see him does not mean I can't pick on him on the message board /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

The play up theory is the same for me as it is for Victor. Victor just has more skills to take him to a higher level before his game levels out in a protected division than I do. I’ll move up when I start competing again at a decent level. Right now, non-cashing status in MA2 does not encourage me to move up to MA1 lol

Gimp, I'm freakin messing with ya/msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif pro is pro no matter what division/msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

/msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

[rhett]

Chile,

I managed my first PDGA DFL in OMB last weekend. I played one year in Advanced Open where I didn't merch at all except for the Old Zoo tournament, which is a 14 hole temp course where every "drive" is basically an upshot out of trouble. (I won! Unlike all the other competitors, I'm used to making those kinds of shots! /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif)

So yeah, I really should move up to pro as my rating drops into the Intermediate range, right?

i'm flattered but i have only been playing for what... about 6 years:^p

i have played open.

i do consistently try to get better. if i ever get better at putting i would play open constantly.

i was born in the 50's and have no bidniz competing against the top level open players that are in there 20s and 30somethings...

but there is a huge difference between those skillsets and the diff between adv and MMwhatever.

get a clue.

i'll play open at smaller events. heck gimpster you know that... you've seen me do it... but if i had my choice (and i do, just like you folks) i prefer playing with the advil league because of the kind good hearted folks that make up the division. it is a zero whining/******* zone too, which is a big plus.

i do not mind being guffed. it is all in good fun.

[jeffash]

Who's guffed? (http://www.londonslang.com/db/g/)

i think i meant that other word, their... but rhett would hook me up if i would have missed it.

i do, however-- mind jeffs interpretation of the word guff in close proximity. i guess slang is regional?

onward thru the fog, and upwind of jeff. :^p
3w

[neonnoodle]

"i was born in the 50's and have no bidniz competing against the top level open players that are in there 20s and 30somethings... "

So then you believe that you are deserving of protection due to age, but others are not deserving due to skill level.

How convenient...

if you do not understand the difference between someone in their mid forties competing against young deer like atheletes--- and how that is not the same as two guys in their twenties competing...

well you are dumber than i originally thought.

get a clue generalisimo fransisco touron

Old farts deserve age protected divisions.....

Ratings are good too, but will need a few years, and a couple tweaks before they are working properly.

And no matter the system, there will be someone to slip through, and be called a "bagger", whether is was a smokin' round, or just dumb luck, and tree love.

[neonnoodle]

Cong, according to Vic's logic you are a dumb touron... Skill level should not be a valid criteria for divisions, just age, right?

Then we should abolish amateur play I suppose Mr. Smarty Pants?

not even close... that distinction is entirely yours nick.

the difference nick, is others are not attemping to mess with PRO divisions-- as well and cram their lame ideas down everyones throat.

i have said it many times... do what you want to AM divs....go all the way to MM99 for all i care.

i do not agree with that divisional concept-- but it really doesn't matter to me.


:^p

btw, nick there is a series that still uses real divisions and it is held in multiple states across the south.

no bagging... just about zero... and the ADV div is huge... and the AM2 div is huge too.

both are very competitive within that range of skills.

nothing wrong with the way it used to be...

to me-- you guys amputate at the neck when a bandaid would work.

[sandalman]

i thought it didnt matter to you? so shuddup already


/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[neonnoodle]

Vic, talking with you is pointless. You can't even explain where you stand on this let alone form an entire sentence. You don't like protected class... You like the one you have...You think the old form of protection was better...You don't believe believe all of these folks telling you that the new system is worth while...You think people should do things your way... You don't like folks who actually are involved and do things their way...

You are a mess dude! Get a grip.

nick-- it is not my way, moron.

it was around before i ever played the game.

yet another example of you making up schit to bolster your lameass ideas.

[neonnoodle]

So you think the old protection is better than the new one?

Does anyone else agree with him?

keep reading what you want to hear into peoples posts, general touronista.

look nick, you obviously have more time for this than me. the reason i write in broken sentences is because it is fast.


as a speed reader and a pretty darn fast typist, i betcha i send less than half the actual time here than folks who post less than i...
(it blew me away when i saw how many actual hours the lizard spends here)

btw, nick... wonder how your boss would feel if he knew you spent so much time online and not working? :^p

anyway, i have spoken to nearly as many folks who are doubtful about the ratings system as i have those who are for it.

just because gimp and cong and you are more vocal here in soap opera land does not mean you are the majority.

in all seriousness, i pick on you alot nick because of your tone... you try to come across as all knowing-- over and over and over you read into posts what you want to hear.

you are a melodramatic soap opera star. how can we not kid around with you :^P (it ain't just me bud)

i think that is the main diff, too. i am fairly sure folks like gimp and cong (ratings supporters) know that i am just messing with you.

be well nick. remember that YOU are the one that attacked me first. i am just kidding around with you.

but i still say just as many folks have doubts about ratings as those who support it... they are just not forum idiots like us.

their boss probably won't allow them to abuse the timeclock or they are just too nice to jump into this idiot pool. :^p

this took me about a nanosecond to type. back to photoshop.

Actually yeah I don't really see any benifits to the "new" Am system over the "old" Am system except now all the folks that once yelled "bagger" can now look at their ratings and move down to Intermediate, but they could have done that in the old system anyway. Oh, and the fact that the new point system is more difficult to understand, and the fact that no one has stated how Worlds invites are going to work with this new points system, and the fact that I don't think folks that used to play in Adv Master now have a realistic chance of qualifying for Worlds without moving to either Intermediate or Advanced. Perhaps the whole idea was really to get rid of the Adv Master division. Other than that everything is AOK. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Old system worked perfectly well where I am from. Oh, and I am not one to really biatch about stuff so I am not going to be drawn into this whole thing, but someone did ask. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[neonnoodle]

Vic, let's try giving each other the benefit of the doubt for a while and see what that brings. I'm not saying that we won't disagree on stuff, but we might be in a better position to comprehend what the other is saying.

You over estimate my pull and perhaps I underestimate yours. Truce?

there never was a war, bud...

i was just pulling your leg the whole time. i kid around alot. get used to it :^p

i've said it before. you are probably a nice guy.

/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

we have philisophical differences. what you see as a fair system i see as promoting underachievement.

Vic rhymes with D1ck, any cooincidence?

<FONT SIZE=" 2">I DOUBT IT!!!!!</FONT>

/msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

Welcome to H-town V-man!

bagger :^p

[neonnoodle]

So does Nick.

The problem with your theory is that some people are not underachieving. They might actually be over-achieving, but that still results in them being donators and without a home, like a rolling stone.

I will go out on a limb and say I would agree with the system if every tournament were used to calculate the rating. Not just PDGA sanctioned events. My rating dropped 20 points last year when I had my best year. Add 4 more wins and lots of dollars to the picture and you will be closer to my rating. I do not even suggest to raise it, just not drop it by 20 .
I am not convienced it cannot be manipulated by throwing strokes away when you determine you have no chance of cashing anyway. But I will give it time and see.

My biggest issue, is seeing rounds that arenearly 100 over your rating included in rating, yet rounds 60 below, NOT included......seems liek i have said this before though.

/msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

Nick, Vic, D1ck.....all fits in my book....

now dont make me take out the Dong, and Cong you upside the heads.....

/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

thank you cong. someone finally admitting that they are tweaking anomalies.

and yes nick SOME, being the keyword.

not enough to amputate at the neck, imo.

ADV &amp; AM2 divisional seperation is working just fine as we speak in many states, thank you very much.

In the old system, players who were moved up through peer pressure, through bump rules, or who’s skills diminished over time would just quite the game rather than take grief for moving back down. In the new system, there is a place for these players to go. Your argument that the old system was working fine is weak IMO wwworker. Just because it was working on some level does not mean that it could not be BETTER. IMO this is a very nice step in the right direction. One day it would be nice to have to earn your way to the next level.

[neonnoodle]

Chuck Kennedy, do you have an answer for Mr. Dong, I mean Cong?

[ck34]

It's real easy to add extra throws to your score. Get frustrated at the end of your round and start making ace runs or "magic" 70-ft putts and watch the extra bonus throws accumulate in your score. It's fairly easy to have several rounds more than 100 below your current rating. Not so easy to have several rounds 100 over your rating. There's no equivalent situation where a 900 player can just turn in a few 1000 rated rounds at will.

In ball golf, they throw out your bottom HALF of all rounds to determine handicaps. With that system, you can only shoot better than your handicap 1 out of 4 rounds. With our system, your rating is as close to your midpoint of playing "normally" as possible without TDs having to judge every person's round as to whether they were padding throws in their scores.

With Jerry, it's apparent he's playing at his real skill level in non-PDGA events and bagging his PDGA rounds to keep his rating lower in case something happens that forces high rated Masters into Open. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif The point is your rating is accurate for the rounds reported in PDGA action.

Your rating does not have to be your destiny nor do you get paid based on it. You still have to play and earn your cash or prizes. I root for underdogs just like www, but the ratings help us know those to cheer for.

thanks Chuck, I was sure it had been posted by theo or yourself, i am just too lazy to research, and look it up. I had thought of your exact argument, but I would never do that personally, I know it woudl definately be a legit concern.

I still have a problem believing I shot a 970 round, being the 885 rated hacker that I am.

/msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

I can verify that it's real easy to add extra throws to my score. /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

I am with Randy, I pulled a Tin Cup about a month ago at a tourney. 3 times out of bounds in a row. I finally made the shot, a Firebird out and around, and parked it for a crowd pleasing 8.
This is from the same guy that had rounds rated over 980 last year.

Chuck,
Thank you for making my point. All rounds should count, If that is possible. I wish I had ever gotten close enough to be moved to open. I would volunteer to move up if I had a 1000 rating.
It actually just worked out to where I could not make as many PDGA events because I became a father. Besides I would probably just be driven back by the likes of Nolan Grider and Mike Sayer.

[thcplz]

cong was that 900 plus round, the third round at octoberfest???
mine was 996

they did NOT take into account we played from the reds not the blues.
i would have loved to have taken that awsome 2 on #12 from the blues but nooooooo, only the reds.

Hey Cong - looks to me like that 51 round at Woodway was pretty darn smoking... Why do you have a hard time thinking that would be 970. Look at the Advanced scores from that course during round 2 and 3. What did we have, 2 longer boxes? Good round!

Woodway was all the same boxes, I think.....I guess I have my days!

Unfortunately, too few, and too far between!

/msgboard/images/clipart/sad.gif

There was one box that was longer. The long one after the big spike hyzer next to the telephone pole. Also, the long one next to the lake.

I didnt know that Woodway had any long holes.

[rhett]

It's official! I'm playing way above my rating. Intermediate is calling...

[sleeper]

Hey Justin! I enjoyed throwing with you and Newberry this last weekend. Couldn't shake the heatherns to get in a round on Saturday. Thanks for putting up with me... /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

OK Gimp......I remember the one down by the lake, right after the hole, some butthead stole the basket.

Still having a problem recalling the "spike" hole though......

Are you talking about the one in the far back corner, that if you annie, you wind up OB across a not much used road, and then total schule?

nope - if you are standing at tee number one throwing down the hill - the longish (475ish) type hole I am talking about tees off to the left in the middle of that field. Many people hit the tree next to the am box and re-teed from there lol (street on the left, slight down hill and then uphill).

yeah, thats the same hole I am talking about....from the AM tee, if you annie too much, you can go OB inthe street, or maybe thats the hole after that one. we had a few OB's on our card, and I was real close.

yep

Well, here's an update from yesterday on the divisional move that caused me to start this thread.

I was in a 5-way tie for 1st after the first round. That was a first for me. Felt good and was playing okay going into round two and ended up tied for third. Another first for me.

On the drive home I thought about what it all meant to me. It felt so good to finish an event feeling good, instead of racking up another DFL and trying to convince myself that I'd get 'em next time. I didn't go into this thinking I was a shoe-in to win or even cash, but I knew that I could be competitive. Well, I was, and it felt great. Instead of playing the last half of a final round just trying to get it over with, having known I was out of it since early in the first, I was still having fun, feeling relaxed and still had something to play for.

Today, at the Waco monthly, on the heels of yesterday's confidence building finish, I shot a 1 and could've shot even better. That was my best competition round there ever and I felt great about my chances to play well all day.

With the confidence I hope to keep building about my game and my ability to compete in competition rounds, it won't be long before I'll be on my way back up.

Overall analysis: Experiment Successful! /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Here's a hypothetical question for all you ratings gurus out there (I think I know the answer but I can't resist stirring up trouble /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif).

If I'm registered for a sanctioned PDGA event and I request to be placed in a division other than the one I'm registered for but which I am eligible for (moving down to within my ratings bracket), can a TD tell me no?

[ck34]

Ask Nick. This isn't any different from a Master deciding whether to play Open or Master at the last minute is it? A TD can announce a deadline for when a division choice must be made.

What if the TD made no such announcement prior to the player's request to change to a divsion in which they were entitled to play by the ratings structure?

[keithjohnson]

then i'd have to say you must have moved to arizona /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

So I guess I'm not gonna get a straight answer on this one?

[ck34]

TDs should and typically allow a player to switch to whatever division they want up to the specified deadline for entries. After that deadline, it's up to the TD if they wish to accommodate players further. Especially when there are small divisions that may not have three players, I'm checking with them to see if they want to switch to a larger division. Around here, there are Advanced Masters who will play Advanced and a Pro Master Woman who will play Master Pro or Open Women depending on how many show up.

Sounds like a topic for the TD Summit.

Definitely. Thanks Chuck.

As I suspected, there doesn't seem to be a rule on this, thus putting the responsibility of one more potentially controversial issue squarely in the lap of the TD. That's unfortunate.

It shouldn't be controversial to play in division for which you are qualified.

I agree, RW. My point in asking, however, was that there's no recourse for that player if the TD says no. Pregistered players for a tournament that is now full (an interpretation of Chuck's "deadline") could be denied the opportunity to move within the current ratings structure at the whim of the TD. Or, at least, that's my understanding of it.

[rhett]

Mark,

I guess the right asnwer would be to sign up for the division you want to play in when you pre-register. That's what we're talking about, right? Signing up for Advanced and then wanting to switch to Intermediate when you check-in?

I usually accomodate all such requests but won't redo the grouping or the scorecards until round two. i.e., you pre-register for Advanced and want to switch to Intermediate on the morning of, I'll change you but you still play the first round with the Advanced guys. That's if the scorecards are already made, which they usually are.

[ck34]

The new Am structure also may require the TD to switch someone anyway if their new or updated rating moves them up a division from the time they preregistered to the time of the event. TDs get the rating and current member list only a few days before the event.

(hypothetical)

what happens if someone pre registers as MA2 and shows up the day of the event and finds out at the event that he is being "forced up" into ADV due to new ratings #'s-- and the event is now full and cannot accomodate that player because the event attendance peaked out?

just curious.

[underparmike]

hypothetically, i would like to beat the crap out of the next person who brings up hypothetical b.s. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

realisticly, we're living with a couple ho's.

a postal employee go postal?

nah, never happen. :^p

seriously, what i posted prior to mikeys pot shot-- could occur...

what would happen to the guy who got bumped up if the ADV pool had filled up?

just curious.

btw... mikey, i thought you said ratings were... hmmm, what were your exact words?

[underparmike]

ratings are fine...using them to determine a player's division at any event is a bad idea. r-based tournaments are not the answer to sandbagging as some have claimed. although with my 959 rating i would love to enter a tournament where the 1000 players had to give me 4 strokes a round.

3w, something confuses me about your scenario:

TD runs an Am tournament limited to a field of 72 players. Pre-registration is required. The TD will have no idea who signs up until they register, so it's first come, first serve. Player X signs up as MA2, based on current rating. In all, 31 MA1 and 41 MA2 register. A few weeks before the tournament starts, the new ratings are posted and Player X has a new rating that would place him in the MA1 division. TD sees this and has to make the bump.

No problem because the size of the field has not changed. Player X gets bumped from MA2, which frees a slot for a new MA1 player (now Player X). Still 72 players.

I can't recall ever seeing a pre-registration that limited divisional sizes in advance. (no pun intended. =8)


BTW, had an awesome weekend of golf, starting with Mikey's and ending at Dangerous Don's. In the middle was a good day at Greenwood league. Too much fun!

hey goby,

i see your point.

speaking of which, congrats on your SN.OMB points title.

movin' on up to the advil league in just two years!

you anti-bagger. :^p

Thanks, man. Now I have to remove "OMB" from my business cards. =8)

roflmao

[keithjohnson]

By Goby on Wednesday, May 28, 2003 - 06:59 pm:

I can't recall ever seeing a pre-registration that limited divisional sizes in advance.

kansas city wide open every year...others also around the country i've played in...but you don't get out of louisiana much huh goby? /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

actually, he isn't from there keith and is a world traveler '^p

[keithjohnson]

wherever he's from ...he didn't play disc golf around the country much....is that better? /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[keithjohnson]

and with my kickazz 930(and getting lower by the events listed).....i will take him on (and you you weasel you /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif ) to show you how the low rated in pdga events guys play when there is no pressure /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

sorta like martyr is doing now....playing beginner-novice-masters division and coming in third!!
/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

hmmm. i'd guesstimate about 26 events a year in 5 states...

i beat guys with much higher ratings than that keith :^p

[keithjohnson]

the south doesn't count as travelling the country /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif...you know actually playing outside of southern national events

sorta like texas....where they never leave the state to play and think the whole disc golf world revolves around the state /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

if it wasn't for the message board...most texans wouldn't even know other state had courses! /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

by the way the club still hasn't decided anything yet on the logos........supposed to decide at next mondays meeting(item was postponed at may meeting)

hope to see you again one day mr 3w...................keith

let me know if you guys need edits to the logo.

be well.

Keith, nope, I haven't traveled to play disc golf nearly as much as some folks. I've really only started traveling during the past six months, but I have played outside of the SN. I played the Gator Country Classic and Melbourne Open (Ams), the Birmingham Tax Tourney and a couple of smaller TX events. I'm now registered for the DGLO and the Brent Hambrick. None have limited the number of entrants for each division, just the total size of the field.

In addition, the registration form for the KCWO (Ams) does not limit divisional sizes. In fact, the form clearly states they will open any division with four or more entrants.

For KCWO Pros, they have specific targets (88 Pro, combo of 56 Masters and Women. Total field size is limited but the size of each division is not limited. You can bet that if they get only 50 Masters and Women, they will let six additional Open players join in the fun.

I may not travel as much as some, but I *do* get around. (The internet is a wonderful thing.) =8)

theres Courses outside Texas???

Oh yeah, I played in Red Stick for LA states once, but figured it was part of my imagination.

/msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

Are ya'll taking side bets on the Goby v. Keith match up? I got five on the fish man.

make it ten. keith can't putt.

:^p

I putt my money on Keith, and I have played outside of Texas.

[keithjohnson]

goby...haven't played kc since 2000....played 1996-2000...96 as advanced master then 97-2000 as a pro...used to be all divisions am and pro had limits until a certain date and then rick or ed would take others to fill the field........i still have entry forms from back then as i save them from every event i play in....if need be i can fax you one /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif
glad to see you are playing more....i have followed your career thru 3w since he started talking you up on the board...good luck and if we do ever play at the same event ,i got 20 on me beating you even with my puny rating /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

and 50 against the wwweasel /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Keith, I'm not sure how www's challenge to you, and freshey's side bet ended up with *me* on the line for $20. I'm not a bettin' man, but I'll play you for a chocolate shake, anytime. My 918 is lower than your 930, so you gotta spot me a stroke. =8)

As for following my so-called "career," I thought you had a life. =8)

roflmao. :^p

what is it with chocolate shakes? a buncha guys at am worlds last year were gambling for frozen milk and chocolate.

keith can't putt. i am fairly good at putting and gettin' mo betta by the day.

i'd bet my lunch money i can outdrive him.

smoked kj would be my prediction.

how about a brand new dell laptop keith.

Now I am totally confused. Is this the Keith Johnson that lived in Miami?? If so Vic. I wouldn't bet you can outdrive him.

[keithjohnson]

yes it is the miami keith...
and no he or 90% of disc golfers registered with the pdga couldn't out drive me and i am putting right handed vic so you are doomed... /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

goby you got dragged in because 3w is always touting you and your scoring and game seem to have improved so i threw you in the betting mix /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif....
by the time i ever get to a course where you and 3w are your rating will be higher than mine......last 3 pdga sanctioned events are not in the database yet and i finished near the bottom of the pack with lots of high rated players on the course meaning my round ratings will be low,meaning my rating will probably go lower.......
at least i can live the rest of the year on the one round of the memorial and beating juliana at a national tour event /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

jc, i ain't askeert.

i've beat better dg'ers than keith. :^p

keep in mind the fish doctor has only been playing two years /-

where was your skill level two years into the game?

[rhett]

Nobody said you couldn't beat him, vic. But outdriving him is another story altogether. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

rhett, coming from a guy who has been in adv since before i ever threw a disc-- oh, never mind.

get a haircut. :^P

keith is just bent 'cause we never had a bag tag challenge round in miami-- is what this boils down to.

I HAD NO CHOICE. MY RIDE WAS DEPARTING FLA. GET OVER IT. :^p

Keith, remember that it's wwworker doing the touting. You've met him; you know how many grains of salt to add to anything he says. /clipart/happy.gif

[rhett]

My first Advanced tournament was PAW2000 in Michigan. Care to retract that statement victor? /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

i am joking with you rhett. i have no idea how long you have been in am divisions.

:^p

bagger

Vic,
Believe it or not I have played more rounds with Keith than you. Your skills are getting close to his, maybe, but he will crush you down. You better talk now cause after he drives you will be able to hear a pin drop. Unless you can hear me laughing. To answer your question, I was not as good as you in only two years. However I am not that good now.
Goby,
That's what I like best about Vic is his [*****] talking.

jerry, thats all you got? :^p

3dub just ain't askeert of keith. get over it /clipart/proud.gif

us underdogs often surprise folks...

Victor,
If you ever plan a weekend trip to Austin for some golf call me and you can stay here. If you don't mind a woopin.

thanks for the offer. first course i ever played was pease... i'd like another shot at that place :^)

Pease=Disc eater, as most Austin course are....

THE ROCK, is a whole different story.....

Pease eats my lunch. But I do not get to play it on any regular basis. It is fun though. Have you played Circle R ? Circle C ? The Rivery in Georgetown ?
All my Houston friends are welcome anytime. Just call ahead and make sure K-T and I aren't coming to Houston.

[tdwriter]

No offense to Keith, but I'll have to go with Dr. Goby myself. I've seen him play and he thrashed me on the long course in Birmingham. Don't even think I won a round. Now Wall Doxey (MS) and the Dogwood Classic (Memphis), that was another story, right Dr. G?

Just kiddin'. I'm gonna hit Hattiesburg on my way back from vacation just so I'll know the course a little better when we play in the SNDG championship in August.

Show those guys what SNDG golfers can do! RwC

hey russ,

paul b johnston is a blast. that whole park area was built by german POW's during WW2.

take notice of the "underwaterbridge" as you drive into the park after you pay at the gate. roflmao.... wtf were they thinking? :^p

anyway, the temp course they set up around the lake for big events there in Hburg is A BLAST!!!

and the perm course is also a swchweety.

[tdwriter]

I had planned on leaving here early that Friday before the August event so I could play the course a couple times. Since we will be going through Hattiesburg on the way home, I figured we could stop by and play it early. I suppose I'll have to wait until the championships to play the temp course. Thanks, Russ

I took a wallopin' at Wall Doxey, but Memphis was only two strokes, and I had the momentum coming out of Sunday's round. If there was an afternoon round, you guys may have been playing off for bridesmaid instead of bride. /clipart/proud.gif

I'm gonna have to retire like Keith did, just so folks will quit building up my game to something it ain't! But all y'all are welcome to bet on me all you want, it's your money. I'll stick with the chocolate shakes. /clipart/happy.gif

just go walk along the the corner of the lake from hole #12 and make up some holes. you'll get the idea :^p

[tdwriter]

I don't know Goby, If I had been one stroke better (or if that one putt for par hadn't went through the center of that zdam yellow basket's chains) there would have been no playoff. I'd have given you a run for your money. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Don't worry about me betting money, this is only a virtual bet. I don't know if I'll ever meet Keith /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif or Vic for that matter, Guess now I'll have to go to Tejas to see www.

I'm actually contemplating a big family trip to Iowa next year IF they actually have a combined PRO/AM Worlds and I can get in, especially if I can camp! That would be a blast and it's all interstate! RwC

Jerry, only Austin courses I havent played, are Circ-C (was closed the year I spent alot of weekends in Austin), and Oak Hill(closed to public). Bart doesnt really tear up your discs like Pease and Seawright. but does have that pesky water to avoid. The handful of times I have played there, the water was something you would have to be paying triple digits, for me to consider going in. It doesnt mean I dont love the courses, just commenting on a high disc-damaging items count.

You haven't played Lago in the new layout, have you? Well maybe you weren't thinking Lago when you thought Austin. You need to play it and you definitely need to play Circle C. I love that course.

Take a weekend off when you get a chance and come down here and we'll play Bart and Circle C on a Saturday and then Lago on Sunday (maybe a mini day?).

And then, when you get home, after leaving Kris and Kyla alone for the weekend to play golf, you can start looking for a new place to live. /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

[keithjohnson]

ok..goby for a chocolate shake...3w for a laptop and russ for a virtual 1 million dollars

of course i want to make sure with 3w that the laptop is OUT of the car beforehand just in case he runs again /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

You forgot my (real) $5, Keith. :-)

OK, here's my updated perspective on the 'ratings transients' issue. After playing Advanced for 3 years (I took 3rd in Novice once 4 years ago and was told I should play Advanced after that), I played my first tournament at Intermediate this past weekend (my rating is 877).

I played pretty crappy the first round, a little better the 2nd and was in 3rd place, 4 strokes down, going into Sunday's round (out of 10 guys I think). Based on my first round score I would have been on the last card in Advanced. It had rained all day Saturday and was supposed to do the same on Sunday, but I actually looked forward to playing because I knew I had a shot at placing (I have NEVER placed in Advanced).

On Sunday I actually made all the putts I was missing on Saturday and ended up winning by one stroke (we were tied going into the last hole). The last 9 holes were some of the most nerve-racking golf holes I have ever played and I loved it. Instead of playing to stay out of last place, I was actually playing to win something. I don't know what my round rating was, but it sure felt a lot better than 877.

So, if anyone asks me if I feel bad about 'playing down' in Intermediate I would have to respond that I felt worse playing up in Advanced the past few years.

Oh, and Keith, the Ram saved my ***** more times than you could even imagine. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[keithjohnson]

BAGGER!!!!
novice's don't throw rams /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif
by the way yesterday at league i came in third and one of the discs to choose from without paying exta was a 177 gram ram....i thought of you as i snagged it out of the box.....threw it once in doubles when my partner was parked and it does make a nice dart...even in the desert /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[keithjohnson]

By freshey on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 07:50 am:
You forgot my (real) $5, Keith. :-)

didn't count it as it was on me VERSUS goby....not you against me...
all the bets listed are me against that person...notice none of them have posted since then as they are all SCARED!

ask brian schweberger about betting against me....scared him right back to touring on the road so he wouldn't have to ace me regularly /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[tdwriter]

Keith, If I ever get out to AZ, I'll play you myself. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif I'm only five months older than you and I also love the JLS (actually Q-JLS) and Valkyrie.

Either way, Goby's a great player and a great representative of the Southern Nationals. You'll have a great time playing him. RwC

BTW, I finished 19 points behind Goby in SNDG OMB points this year, but have a measly 881 rating, basically because I haven't played enough PDGA events. I hope it goes up in July since I've added a couple more. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Good choice Keith. It also makes a great putter from 60 feet into a strong headwind./msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[keithjohnson]

russ...at the rate my rating is dropping if you go up even a few points you'll pass me by the end of the year.../msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif
last year at this time i was at 960 and now 930 and still dropping

[keithjohnson]

dan...i'll have to try it for that in practice when it gets windy....i do ok with my jk into a 30-35 mph wind out here in tucson /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif
actually i want to try it as a driver into a headwind and see if it goes as far as my candy 1st run t-bird(350-375ft)
i will probably throw out my wrist though trying to put enough annie on it at release so it doesn't go sideways /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Keith, if you look back upthread, Freshey was taking a $5 side bet on the game between you and me. That's the bet you forgot. So, you're down for a chocolate shake, a laptop, $5 (real) and $1,000,000 (virtual).

No one is scared, but I doubt anyone will remember all these bets by the time you and I actually play a round together. /clipart/proud.gif

[playtowin]

bag'n is in the eye of beerholder!

"i want to try it as a driver into a headwind and see if it goes as far as my candy 1st run t-bird(350-375ft)"

that's all you got? :^p and you can't putt either?

phfffft. scared of keith. roflmao.

fyi keith, i prefer the dell inspiron line of notebooks with the largest hard drive possible and max'd out on RAM.

the dell web site is quite intuitive and newbie friendly-- so you should have no problem ordering my new note book. :^p

[rhett]

i8500 with the WUXGA, 768 MB RAM (came with 256. added a 512 from Crucial was $142. Don't buy memmory from Dell, it over twice as expensive!), and the 40 GB hard drive. Don't get the 60 GB hard drive as it is currently a 4500 RPM drive whereas the 40 GB is the 5400 RPM. That memory plate gets friggin' hot though, so don't call this a "laptop" and set it on your lap! /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

? how long have you been waiting to post that info?

The CTP at Lago was won by a 176gm RAM. Took home $76.00 on a soft drive. Some perfered the hard drive but they crashed. I could not tell you the RPM's used, no way to measure. I have no memory of him throwing that plate, but it was friggin hot. No way I will let him set it on my lap./msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[rhett]

/msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

[keithjohnson]

By Goby on Tuesday, June 03, 2003 - 04:21 am:

Keith, if you look back upthread, Freshey was taking a $5 side bet on the game between you and me. That's the bet you forgot. So, you're down for a chocolate shake, a laptop, $5 (real) and $1,000,000 (virtual).

goby if you look upthread you'll see why i didn't count the 5 dollars(real) /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

or i could cut and paste it for you if you're lazy /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Keith, here's the conversation in a nutshell:

Keith: and with my kickazz 930(and getting lower by the events listed).....i will take him [Goby] on [...] to show you how the low rated in pdga events guys play when there is no pressure /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Freshey: Are ya'll taking side bets on the Goby v. Keith match up? I got five on the fish man.

3w: make it ten. keith can't putt.

Keith [to Goby]: good luck and if we do ever play at the same event ,i got 20 on me beating you even with my puny rating

Goby: Keith, I'm not sure how www's challenge to you, and freshey's side bet ended up with *me* on the line for $20. I'm not a bettin' man, but I'll play you for a chocolate shake...

Keith: goby you got dragged in because 3w is always touting you and your scoring and game seem to have improved so i threw you in the betting mix

RwC: No offense to Keith, but I'll have to go with Dr. Goby myself.

Goby: all y'all are welcome to bet on me all you want, it's your money.

RwC: Don't worry about me betting money, this is only a virtual bet.

Keith: ok..goby for a chocolate shake...3w for a laptop and russ for a virtual 1 million dollars

Freshey: You forgot my (real) $5, Keith. :-)

-=-

If I missed something, you'll have to cut and paste. 3w never actually accepted the laptop bet. In fact, he never issued a challenge; you did. RwC's and Freshey's side bets are *about* the "you vs me" game but they are bets with you, not with me. I couldn't find a reason upthread why you didn't include Freshey's $5 bet.

Me taking bets with Freshey and RwC, when they are betting on me to win against you, would be easy cash for me. I throw the game, you get false bragging rights and a chocolate shake, and I get $5 from Freshey and $1,000,000 virtual from RwC.

Sounds like a plan! /clipart/proud.gif

/msgboard/images/clipart/sad.gif

[keithjohnson]

By freshey on Thursday, May 29, 2003 - 06:14 am:
Are ya'll taking side bets on the Goby v. Keith match up? I got five on the fish man.

By keith johnson on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 04:02 pm:
By freshey on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 07:50 am:
You forgot my (real) $5, Keith. :-)

didn't count it as it was on me VERSUS goby....not you against me...
all the bets listed are me against that person...notice none of them have posted since then as they are all SCARED!

By wwworker on Thursday, May 29, 2003 - 05:59 pm:

roflmao. :^p

what is it with chocolate shakes? a buncha guys at am worlds last year were gambling for frozen milk and chocolate.

keith can't putt. i am fairly good at putting and gettin' mo betta by the day.

i'd bet my lunch money i can outdrive him.

smoked kj would be my prediction.

how about a brand new dell laptop keith.
----------

sounds like 3w threw down the bet for a laptop to me

ok as I SEE IT...goby bets keith choc shake...
3w bets keith...laptop
russ bets keith(whenever he sees me)virtual bet only....i "made" it 1 million for laughs...
freshey wants to bet "on" the goby versus keith match-up....where i didn't accept as it was not me against freshey

maybe i looking at something wrong...but then it that would mean i made a mistake,and you all know that could never happen /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

"RwC: No offense to Keith, but I'll have to go with Dr. Goby myself."

Keith, what part of RwC's bet did you not understand? /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif He's betting that I would beat you in the challenge between you and me. He's not betting that he beats you in a match.

[underparmike]

forgive me for being a nincompoop, but i can't figure out if the KJ vs. Dr.Goby Challenge is actually going to take place. if so, where?

Dr. Goby, are you going to Am worlds or Pro worlds? if you go to Pro worlds, and want to share hotel expenses, let me know.

just a buncha schmacktalk.

speaking of which, goby could take kj :^p

Mikey, the kj vs me contest may actually happen someday but not in the immediate future. Beyond that, we're just wasting bandwidth.

I'm planning on KC Worlds, but not Pro Worlds. Can't take that much time off, as much as I'd like to.

[tdwriter]

Hell, I challenged Keith myself (if I ever get to Arizona, which I might since I have a brother in law, a cousin and possibly another cousin in the Phoenix area)/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

I'm debating on trying to attend the '04 combined Pro-Am worlds in Iowa next year, so maybe I'll see him there. The drive doesn't appear that bad from here, all interstate, and they have camping!

And you're right Dr. G, my money's on you /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif
RwC

[keithjohnson]

By Goby on Wednesday, June 04, 2003 - 03:40 am:
Keith, what part of RwC's bet did you not understand? He's betting that I would beat you in the challenge between you and me. He's not betting that he beats you in a match.

what part don't YOU understand? /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

By Russ Corey #3523 on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 06:18 pm:
Keith, If I ever get out to AZ, I'll play you myself. I'm only five months older than you and I also love the JLS (actually Q-JLS) and Valkyrie.

and he reconfirmed it on the post above.....
only problem is by next year's worlds i may be retired again /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[rhett]

I beat Keith in a head-to-head bag-tag challenge.

[rhett]

I didn't outdrive him, though, except for when he hit tree.

[tdwriter]

Not that, I just came out of semi-retirement myself. And had a great year, if I might say. Hang arond a little longer, Keith. RwC

-=-
what part don't YOU understand? /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

By Russ Corey #3523 on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 06:18 pm:
Keith, If I ever get out to AZ, I'll play you myself. I'm only five months older than you and I also love the JLS (actually Q-JLS) and Valkyrie.
-=-

Apparently at least that part of the thread. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[keithjohnson]

/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif
.
.
.
.
glad to see i was right about something /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

hey goby...and russ and 3w....i'll be playing in october 11-12 supertour in virginia...if your real men you'll come challenge me there /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

of course i've probably given you all to much warning so you'll have some good excuses ready/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif
like i can't find my virtual million in these couch cushions,ice cream melts too slow in october,laptops cost too much before xmas,etc. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

How about a more realistic excuse, like I don't yet play pro in the PDGA?

[keithjohnson]

i am sure they still allow ams to play pdga events /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

and my rating is down to am2 and headed for recreational...what else do you want /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[gnduke]

Tried the email to proper authorities, no response, no change to statistics. So I will try here.

All Advanced Masters that played in the Z-Boaz Open this year. We played the same courses as the Pros, not the Advanced. If you look at the ratings pre round for ADV Masters, in the first round nobody shot below 920. In the remaining 2 rounds nobody shot above 882. If you switch the courses, the numbers look much more reasonable.

Please assist.

[neonnoodle]

Click on Chuck's name on any of his posts here. I will almost guarantee a response in a timely manner.