McCoy Why the hell did you get BANNED ????????

Kev finally toed the lined to close and got himself banned.

Now I have no more comedy to look forward to

Way to go Jackass! I'm sure your Mom is PROUD!

[Pizza God]

Kevin, maybe if you STOPPED pushing how far they will let you go, it may not have happend.

You may have post deleted, but when you continually post trash, you will be banned. (or if you post your link on every thread)

Now quit being a red headed clown, and act responsible. You can bring up things like attitudes of other players and cheaters without getting deleted or banned. You must do it without slamming the player or cussing up a storm.

Yes I agree that we had an instants of cheating in Texas this last month. But beleve me, he will be watched from now on.

I for one have to agree with you being banned based on several of your posts the last few day. I hope you get the point and can come back and tell us some more funny stories.

[gang4010]

An incident of cheating? Was this with the same player who is on probation til the end of the year? If so - what has been reported?

[discette]

C'est la vie.

When you continually push the barriers, you eventually end up outside.

It's not like we didn't try to warn him.

WOW!! I will mess Kevin's comical remarks, how long is this suspension?

[my_hero]

It will last as long as it takes Kev to make a new, anonymous profile. Best wishes bro, and thanks for the entertainment.

[disctance00]

Kevin is just banned from the board right? Not from playing events?

[dannyreeves]

disctance00, you are correct. They would never ban him from playing events. They don't even do anything to people that cheat. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[disctance00]

HUH!!!

So now we can talk trash about the cubs and he can't do anything about it? j/k McCoy's a good kid give him another chance

[spartan]

what was the cheating remark in TX about? Can somone fill in the uninformed on what was the final blow for getting Nina banned and what cheating incident is he talking about?

GO!! Braves!!Sosa is a cheater!! loaded bat!!

[jconnell]

See the TX State Championships thread. McCoy went overboard criticizing the PDGA and the event TDs for not disciplining someone he (and others in his group) accused of attempted pencil-whipping.

--Josh

no, its because he's a cubbies fan, HE's CURSED!!!
or is it because he cursed???.... curses of curse.

You mean the proud owner of the highly collectible Kevin McCoy action figure even supports this ban? Man, that's harsh.

Myself, I'd rather see over the line posts get deleted than the poster banned (and I've never even been too crazy about that method either), but I'm sure Barbie, uh I mean Carrot Top, uh I mean Richard Head, uh I mean Nina knew when he refused to back down from Tay-oh that this could be a likely result.

Rave on, brother.

I'm sure we will hear from Kevin again./msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

[Pizza God]

Yes I think Nina was being a Richard Head. And yes My prototype Nini Fo Fi Tre Disc Golf Super action figure is right above my computer (along with eds ashes and a box of Green Slime cerial)

I do belive that Kevin brought up valid points about the "Cheater", I just think he could have done it better and got his point across. It would not have been deleted.

I know all the players involved in the cheating incident at States and I have to side with the players. This guy tried to cheat and got away with it because of the way the rule was written. If someone had not caught the score when they were checking scores, he would have gotten away with it. But because they pointed it out to him, he turns in a corrected scorecard and nothing happens. I trully hope the PDGA looks at this incident and does something about it. The guys on his card know what happend.

I remember something happening like this several years ago at 7-Oaks and that player was kicked out of the tournament and suspended from the PDGA for one full year. That players was also known as a cheater.

[dannyreeves]

I completely agree with you Bryan. I don't understand why Ching or Nez won't answer my questions on the Texas States thread. Ching sure does post a lot telling Kevin to shut up but he won't answer my valid questions about the decision on the (non)ruling.

Farewell Nina! /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

You finally got what you've been crying about since the worlds.
You wanted the Rules enforced and now they have been. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Just think how much better things could be if you had used all that pent up anger in a positive way.
But instead of being a man and trying to solve the problem, you chose to act like the immature punk that you are. Go look in the mirror dude. You've become exactly what you claimed you hated....an Angry Clown! I bet Cam is laughing his @#$ off right now.

[disctance00]

It seems to reason though that it is apparent the guy cheated. With that being said he should've with out a doubt been disqualied no if ands or buts about it. There seems to be a history from what I've read on the board about this feller. I thought that TD's had the power to DQ anybody for cheating not what the rulebook says. I could be wrong not sure. but why go to a rulebook for cheating you get caught you are DQ'd wheather or not you turn it in that way or not. The motive was to turn it in that way he should be DQ'd. Now Kev can't post cause he's outraged , How is he supposed to go about it when nothing works. If they can't take it when they are poked at then they don't need to be in a position of power in the sport. If your going to be on the BOD then you got to have leather on your back and [*****] it up when flak is headed your way. Not quiet the people down who have the guts to bark about it. No matter how they go about it. Respond to it don't try to sweep an opinion under the carpet that will only make it worse!! I'm off this board for the week-end headed to Moody's for a great Oktoberfest.

[Pizza God]

Danny, until you walk in his shoes and have to make a call like that, you will never understand. It's easier to talk the talk than to walk the walk.

Ching did answer the question on the ruling on the Texas STates thread. Nez also gave an answer. I understand it but don't agree with it in this case.

I personally know that it is possible to write/say the wrong score on your hole. At the 1st fairihite fling in Arlington, I had birdied the Texco hole in the long position in the 3rd round, in the final round I was even closer but tennised my way back and forth, back and fourth. I wrote/said a 5. On my way home I realized that I really took a 6. Luckly I was like in last place, but I still called/emailed Terry and asked him to fix it. (I should have been stroked or DQ for it) It was a total mistake.

Now in the case of the STates tournament, I don't belive there is a question of if it was a mistake or not. (from what has been said)

[tbender]

Why go to a rulebook for cheating? Because without the rules, there is no cheating. (Moral character issues aside - that is another argument entirely)

The rule is weak, as this incident shows. But attacking those who consulted the rules and made a correct decision (although both possible decisions could be interpreted as correct) is wrong. And continuing to do so, using choice vocabulary doesn't help things.

This reminds me of the Patriots-Raiders playoff game, aka "The Tuck Rule" game. A bad rule makes a bad official decision.

[ching_lizard]

Danny - I never told Kevin to shutup. What I stated (in effect) that it was pretty crummy of him to blast us over the issue without even talking to us to find out the rationale behind the decision. He seems to be blasting us over the decision we made rather than blasting about the incident or individual involved in the incident.

I don't know what questions you asked that I haven't answered, but send me a personal e-mail and I will try to answer them after I get back from climbing this weekend. I know that you aren't going to like the answer, but our hands seemed to be tied...

[neonnoodle]

Hey! Just because Kev is banned doesn't give folks free rein to pile on. Give the brother a break. Can't you say what you want to say without insulting him? Or would that leave you nothing to say?...

We had a violation like this back in 1988 or so. The guy when confronted admitted that he had cheated and was banned for a year or so from our events. He is now a man among men, a leader, and a very fine disc golfer. Punishment need not result in entrance into the dark side. If there is a bit of good in there then it is simply a matter of having the will to improve and the support of REAL friends, not punks (sorry).

Folks are too uptight about making mistakes, which is probably the funniest thing in the world, considering not one of us is perfect. (Well, except me in Randy Wimms eyes that is...)

Kid Roc, send me an email regarding the question you are looking to get answered. I posted a detailed response on that thread

Nick, as usual, you're completely without a clue. You knucklehead, while Kev is banned is the absolute best time in the world to pile on him. Geez, you just don't know nuttin'.

Not that I want to pile on Kev, just thought someone should point out that this is a perfect opportunity. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Crap without Consequences: What we're all striving for.

Pizza Man:

"I personally know that it is possible to write/say the wrong score on your hole. At the 1st fairihite fling in Arlington, I had birdied the Texco hole in the long position in the 3rd round, in the final round I was even closer but tennised my way back and forth, back and fourth. I wrote/said a 5. On my way home I realized that I really took a 6. Luckly I was like in last place, but I still called/emailed Terry and asked him to fix it. (I should have been stroked or DQ for it) It was a total mistake.

Now in the case of the STates tournament, I don't belive there is a question of if it was a mistake or not. (from what has been said)"

Please explain to me how there is no question of whether the alleged was cheating at TX States vs your situation as a completely spacehead move to write the wrong score down without intended malice. Because the players on his card said so, even though the player immediately and ademantly denied it and corrected his error before turning his card in?

According to the laws of the PDGA (Rule Book), you should have been DQ'd, and as correctly ruled at TX States, the alledged was not.

[wforest]

bryan said five , wrote 5 ... possible brain-fart
that he fully admitted , ie being a human bean , a non-perfect organism . . .
.
NOW
.
the cheat said "sur-kull sicks" , wrote " 5 " .
.
? where's the "CIRCLE" ? (hint: a round thingey that kind of surrounds the score number when spoken and written) ... where's the number that looks like this : 6 ???
.
NO grey area here ... NO doubt what happened ...
listen to your 3 witnesses to the fact ...
an intentional attempt to cheat to a lower score ... figured that out in about 3 , no 2 seconds ...
.
it's all water under the bridge now without the DQ decision on the spot .
period

Ok...I'll play along. According to the rules of the PDGA (Rule Book)...I missed the part that says Pizza should have been DQ'd.

As for the ruling at TX States...

One brilliant interpretation of the rules could be this:

When scores are taken after a hole is completed...the players (the entire group) should be responsible for seeing that the scores are taken correctly. They are to be asked for...they are to be answered...and if there is a question, the group should figure out the correct score.

Assuming these things have been done, if there is a score which seems to have been changed or written in error...the group can then change it before handing the card in.

I think whether we agrees with this type rule structure or not, we would do well to understand that it places the emphasis on the group of players as opposed to the precise method of scorekeeping which cannot be altered under any circumstance.

This being the case...if the group insists that a player changed a score which they witnessed as being correctly written...or the group insists the player knowingly wrote the wrong score...and if we accept the PDGA structure of placing the responsibility of enforcing rules within the group...

Then my friends, we face the awful truth of disqualifying a player because the group says a player cheated. Now, if put to the test...and the group cannot be certain the player cheated...then the player cannot be disqualified. The type person the player happens to be can have nothing to do with any decision.

In my opinion, the ball is dropped in two courts. First...there are obvious pitfalls in placing responsibility on the players to enforce rules while not having the trust that the group can say a player cheated or not. Very complicated issue.

If players want to seriously protect scoring within their group, players should check the scoring after each hole. Seems to me, the least bother for serious competitors...would be to keep everyones score throughout the round. If everyone did this...the "real" scorecard would be easy to check.

But in the interest of saving the trees and only having to keep score for a portion of the round...I guess an occasional scoring controversy is worth it.

Let it be known that some players who have seen disciplinary action due to these circumstances still say they didn't do it on purpose.

Seems to me, players in the PDGA are being set up to be accusers...but are not being given the structure needed to give weight to their accusations.

OH-HO!!! It's time for some of our idiotic friends to come say that if the players are concerned about the rules...then the players need to take it upon themselves to structure their accusation process to give it the proper weight.

This entire scenario is one that repeats itself as we go from one rules controversy to another.

If you want the players to be responsible for "the call", then set down the structure and abide by the call. If you would rather have the nebulae in which the rules currently float...then quit pretending that their are set rules and that YOU know them!!!!! The current rules are a multiple choice bucket of hodge-podge. They are interpreted, then determined to be rules by whomever happens to be the "proper" authority at the time. This includes the "rules committe".

In my opinion, we would be alot better off simply having TD's making decision based on their interpretation of fairness. At least they could take sole responsibility for the decision, instead of having to explain their decision based on the bucket of oleo.

I would like to thank anyone who read this entire post and apologize for it's length.

If anyone thinks I am degrading the efforts of those who have been involved in the written rules, or that I think the work was low budget...they are mistaken.

It is the enforcement phase which is weak. It is weak in it's very nature of having to rely on players to police themselves. This can't be avoided...but it would probably help if the weakness was a little more in the open so players wouldn't be expecting too much.

Nez, why can't you just say that you feel like the guy probably cheated but the rules, as YOU interprate them, kept you from DQing him? Or are you going to continue to cover your *** with these lame replies? I refuse to beleive that you really think he didn't cheat.

Seems to me that if Player A is heard to report one score by the other members of his/her group but then immediately writes down a different, lower score, the onus should be on Player A to prove that his/her action was not deliberate.

Dave, you aren't seriously trying to suggest that writing down a misreported score is no different than reporting one score but writing down a lower one, are you?

While it occasionally happens that a player will miscount his/her strokes and consequently report and record the wrong score, in those cases the reported and the recorded scores are identical.

In the present case, the fact that the correct score was reported verbally proves that the player knew his actual score; the fact that he wrote down a different, lower score is strong, if not compelling, prima facie evidence of deliberate misrecording, particularly if the scorekeeper then "read" back his correct score to the group, in keeping with the scoring procedure set forth in 804.03.B.

[Pizza God]

Ok, at what point does it become cheating. I agree that you can miscount your shots on a hole or forget your penalty stroke, but in my eyes, if the player said "Circle 6" but HE wrote a 5 down, there is no other explanation but cheating. Now I have not personally talked with My Hero or Mikey about it. But if they say he said Circle 6 and he wrote a 5, I would have liked to DQ him for it. Is there no rule that states you can do this???

Wheres the Great Gordo, was the card at 7 Oaks turned in when that player was DQ'd and suspented from the PDGA????? In that case there was a 2 written down on a hole that he shot a 3. He was the only player on the hole that did not birdie it from what I remember (this was a few years ago)

how many misreported scores(holes)has he had all year?
1 or 100?

Wow... Nina has been banned from here and my dumb [*****] [*****] is still allowed? Good job Nina, viva la [*****]!

Yeah, kinda boggles the mind, doesn't it Dud?

[J A B]

Kev obviously violated a portion of the recently enacted Patriot Act, which along with preventing anyone from crashing another airliner into a large building, was put in place to stop the melicious name calling, finger pointing and hurt feelings on the message board.

Free speach... at what price freedom?

(no I do not really think that deleating Nina's post will make America safer)

[Pizza God]

Dud, I though they had already banned you too/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Yesterday, I shot a 59 during the second round at Oktoberfest. My card was turned in with a 57. I believe it was added correctly. Somewhere in the mix...I lost 2 stokes in the written score. So...my correct score (according to the holy grail...is a 61).

If the players on my card say I cheated...I COULD be disqualified.

Why? Because they are the ONLY PEOPLE ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH that can make that call. I can't. The TD can't. The PDGA can't.

Is there a rule? YES, THERE IS A RULE. It is a rule that says a player MAY be disqualified for cheating. If the players on the card say that another player on the card has cheated...the TD is a at liberty to do NOTHING OR DISQUALIFY.

Please, for the love of all things sensible... TRY TO GET THIS IN YOUR THICK SKULLS!!!!!

The rule section for disqualification and suspension simply lists things which MAY be cause for suspension.

THERE IS ONLY 1 THING WHICH CARRIES AUTOMATIC SUSPENSION...and that one thing is NOT...I repeat...NOT, NOT, NOT in the rulebook. The disqualification for this ONE thing comes from a POLICY that was presented to membership...NOT your precious rulebook. The rulebook simply says that this one thing MAY be cause for DQ.

Ok class of TD's, professional players and others who may be concerned and repeatedly say stupid things concerning this issue on this board...

DO YOU GET IT?

There is ONLY 1 violation for which a TD must DQ. It is violation of a policy...not a rule.

ALL OTHER DQ'able offenses are simply that...DQ'able. A TD can DQ or not DQ for ANY and ALL DQ'able offenses.

NOW, DO YOU GET IT?

And please try to understand, that you...and people in high standing in the PDGA...and most TD's...and almost all the the players have no clue as to what the holy grail that is the "rulebook" has to say.

So please try to refrain from leaning on the "rules" when making these type decisions. Simply say it was your tournament to run...you are guessing at the rules the best you can...and you tried to make the best decision you could. You may have made a mistake...but you aren't God and you don't know all the rules.

And above all, remember this...

If the group says a player cheated...and you as a TD cannot convince the group otherwise...then you have no right to enforce ANY violation which is called by the group. You are superceding the basic rules of this sport...something which TD's often do.

Oh yeah...DGRZ 666...and DGRZ's are WAAAAY overrated.

[m_conners]

If players B, C & D agree that player A cheated, what TD in their right mind would not take action? I've read some players posts on this matter and there is no doubt player A knowingly cheated. Why player A was not DQ'd is a question for the TD. I'm not coming down on whoever the TD was at this tournament. I have much respect for any TD. These guys are devoted citizens of the sport and it's easy to put blame on them. The TX state championship TD had to have some kind of logical reasoning for letting player A go home with CASH....DOOOHHH!!

I don't see how this is any different than an incident in the 1996 AM worlds. The player in question wrote a 2 when he
scored a three . He was DQed that night. It's all about consistancy......right?

After going back and re-reading this thread (for god only knows why), I realized 3 things.

1. There are ways around cheating in PDGA events (which is why I answered some of the questions on the recent PDGA survey the way I did)

2. I really miss Randy Wimm, Mark Bruce and Kevin McCoy

3. That 2nd thing makes me very concerned about my sanity.

FREE WIMP, DUD & NINA!!!

(I will be changing my signature until the Pioneers of Message Board Humor and Patriotism are returned to us in slightly battered but still indentifiable condition)

[nix]

Did they just not make the transistion to the new board? Or are there other reasons? Forgive me if this is answered in this long [*****] thread, I just don't want to research it...

[twoputtok]

Nina's back, you can find him on the affiliate clubs section for the Tusa Disc Golf Association.

He now has a full time job, running a course and watching the kids at the YMCA.

Hows that for scary. :o

[spartan]

What happened to Wimp?

He's been driven away by the dark forces that hold sway in message board land. He's currently taking solice in the world of the cards. Let's join together and allow the Force to lead the great Jedi Master back to us. :)

Okay, okay, so Nina IS posting in the Okie areas. I will still stand firm with my protest until he returns to the world of the rest of us and is freed from his banishment on the Wrong Side of The Red River Threads only.

And this ain't no hippie love-in, hunger strike, flowers in my hair, kumbaya singing, pacifist, make love not war protest either. Get these guys back posting - or somebody's gonna get hurt!

TEAR IT UP MARK!!!!!!!!! :D

TEAR IT UP MARK!!!!!!!!! :D



I just might. I'm lost without the guidance of these purveyors of Message Board Darkness and Humor. I'm on the razor's edge, man. Don't push me!

[jasonc]

TEAR IT UP MARK!!!!!!!!! :D


That's pretty much what he does if he can't eat it or screw it!!!(or if it's a disc golf course) :D:D:D:D
I will agree with Mark on this though, I miss Master Wimm calling me an IDIOT :eek:

[dannyreeves]

I think I am too new to the game and the message board to have been called an idiot from Wimm. :D

:D

[seewhere]

well if this helps . Kid your an idiot. :D

[my_hero]

What happened to Wimp?



I'm not sure, but he's not a current PDGA member :confused:

What gives Master Wimp?

[gnduke]

Come on Randy, we really need the head idiot to keep us in line.

[dannyreeves]

well if this helps . Kid your an idiot. :D



Thanks Ware. I was feeling left out.

[seewhere]

U R Welcome ;)

After going back and re-reading this thread (for god only knows why), I realized 3 things.

1. There are ways around cheating in PDGA events (which is why I answered some of the questions on the recent PDGA survey the way I did)

2. I really miss Randy Wimm, Mark Bruce and Kevin McCoy

3. That 2nd thing makes me very concerned about my sanity.

FREE WIMP, DUD & NINA!!!

(I will be changing my signature until the Pioneers of Message Board Humor and Patriotism are returned to us in slightly battered but still indentifiable condition)




Mark, where is the almighty wimpage????