They got game!

Howdy All:

My home course (Calvert, in College Park, MD) hosted a C-tier event last Sunday that had five women pro players (Juliana Bower, Angie Martin, Colleen Dee, Terry Frank and Rachel Mansir) in attendance. This was five more than we had last year, and I wanted to thank all of them for showing up at our little old pitch and putt and making this years' Calvert Open special.

Juliana...what can I say! Add me to the list of Open players she has whipped (in my own backyard...ouch!). She would have come in second in Open, three shots behind Craig Gangloff, so at least I was not alone. This was our first tournament since installing new tee pads and pin positions, and I am happy and proud to report that she now holds the course record from the pro tees! (yep, she even beat craiger, thanks to a missed mando on the next to last hole).

I hope all the women had a good time, and thanks again for attending. If any of you TD's are wondering what we did, it's pretty simple. We paid out 195% of their entry fee. I found that people were less reluctant to donate money if they knew it was headed to the Women's pot. My advice to you TD's out there, help the women out and SHOW THEM THE MONEY! Talk to the folks at Sedgley if you want to find out how to really do a bang up job, I hear the women payouts at the Paul Fein were out of this world! DD

I heard Disc Sports Resource Center did some serious sponsoring of all NINETEEN women at this one day 'C' tier event at Sedgley in Philly.

Thanks for your generosity!

-Scott

The Sedgley event was a "B" tier. The Womens' entry fee was $28 and John Deusler of DSRC contributed $13 towards EVERY woman's fee who registered. John also contributed $100 towards Juliana's traveling expences and the Friends of Sedgley matched those funds.

We women only had to pay $15 to enter. The payouts were bumped up for the women also. 1st place took home over $300,(340-50?) and 3rd was around $175. We also had free sodas/water and lunch for everyone. We also had a kick-A!# party at the Druid's Keep( a proud sponsor) in Philly the night before with discount drinks and a band. We want to make this a targeted event for women every year. If you want women to come, invite the World's Champ and pay out the money. Thanks Toph, Frank, John, and all the guys at Sedgley.
lisa smith
FSW
Groundskeeper

Giving away money to the "Women" is not the right way to go. By doing this you take money away from someone else! Money should always be in proportion to the number playing in the division. I should't matter if its pro masters, pro grandmasters, pro legands,or pro women. To get more women to play you need more women friendly tournaments.
PS:
I do agree with paying top players to play at a tournament.
Dave

I was recently at a tournament where there was 2 open women, young who are in the upper ranks with Julianna, and 2 Open women masters, 1 over 40 and the other over 50. Because there were not enough open master players we were forced to play against the young open players. Can you say donate! With these meger turnouts at tournaments and these lame rules where the older players have to donate to the younger players, you WILL be seeing less of us older players. Next time I am told this at a tournament there WILL be a few less players. I know the rules, so don't quote rules to me.

Donna, I do not think Masters players should be forced to play with non-Masters players but how should a TD handle having only 2 players in a division?

I totally understand not wanting to take time away from non disc life to donate though.

-Scott

Howdy DWhite

I must respectfully disagree with your post. The Women fields are so small that they would be doomed to poverty if the payout was strictly in proportion to the number of players. Collecting donations specifically for the women's payout does not take money away from the other players, because it was not theirs to begin with. We did not take money from any of the other divisions to support the Women, it all came from outside donations. Granted, the ratio of money donated per player was not equal ($9.13 per open player, $7.50 per master, $28 per woman), but since all divisions were paid over 100% that should not matter.

Hats off to Sedgley for an amazing show of support to the Woman's field. They have a well organized group of dedicated individuals up in Philly, and have set an example that is going to be hard to top. DD

Having attended the Sedgely event, I must say it was great to see all the women players who were there. I think any successful effort to attract females to the game is worthwhile, and I certainly don't object to contributing.
Bring in the ladies- the men will surely follow- It's the reasoning behind ladies' nights at the bar; tried and true.
I'm going to propose a zero entry fee for ladies at our doubles league.

[discette]

Finally, an idea that might actually bring more women to a tournament.

I am a Pro Master Woman. Since turning pro two years ago, I have only played two events with a Women's Master division. I have played many events where I was the ONLY pro woman. And only two or three tournaments a year with more than four Pro Women. Even when I was the only woman, I was NEVER turned away. The only problem I have is when a TD has money added to the Open and Master division purses, but not for the Pro Women.

I just love this idea of getting a sponsor for the Women's division. That way, the guys can't whine that we are actually earning some prize money. From now on, every tournament I am involved in will have a Women's sponsor. This sponsor money could be used for the purse, for player's packages or for helping with expenses. Heck, why not kick a little extra prize money down to the Am Ladies? I love it.

Shannon, do you realize how sexist this statement of yours sounds?:

"Bring in the ladies- the men will surely follow- It's the reasoning behind ladies' nights at the bar".

Do you really equate women, drinking, & disc golf with “more men at the disc golf course”? Your analogy is wrong and misplaced. I do not think men will come to the course just because women are there. That is one of the most unusual statements I have ever read on this message board.

As far as “subsidizing” the women divisions, I feel that it is a good thing up to a point, but in the long run it will be proven that this method will not substantially increase the number of female players.

Theo wrote>>>Do you really equate women, drinking, & disc golf with “more men at the disc golf course”?

Yes. Just because something is viewed by some as politically incorrect doesn't mean it isn't true. Or worth trying. I didn't invent the phrase "sex sells", but I do believe it.
Women attract men; That's a fact, whether we like it or not. There is no need to make judgements about "sexism", or to pretend that human nature is more noble than it is.
I say pay 'em. We seem to have no problem paying amateurs to show up--Why should women be treated differently?

You said it yourself--Why should women be treated differently?

Differently from amateurs...My wife quit playing completely because sometimes even when she won, she didn't receive her entry fee back, while cash was added to open and advanced players got stacks of plastic. I guess you just want to keep this a boy's club, Theo, and I won't be responding to any more trolls.

Shannon, I would guess that your wife quit playing because there were not enough women to play with and to bond with on the course. More women playing will equate to more payout. This in turn makes for happy competitors.
I feel that until women are treated as EQUALS and not as "special cases" they will never be comfortable as competitive disc golfers or even casual golfers.

And, Shannon, your boy's (sic) club comment was uncalled for. And trolls on this message board is a way of life, get use to it.

I'll chime in on this one, because I've been doing this for years. Although I haven't specifically sought ought sponsors JUST for the ladies, I do believe that distribution of added cash should be weighted disproportionately to field size.

The Open Division is the most competitive division and should receive the lions share of added cash. Being a competitive pro division (although a protected one), the Masters should receive a decent share also. The ladies has traditionally been the smallest pro division, and to give them a representative percentage of the added cash would seldom even cover their player fees and expenses. I believe giving them a better percentage of the added cash just shows that the TD values their participation. When their numbers grow, perhaps this method will be less necessary.

If however we continue in our present mode, with few if any TD's making an effort to support womens play financially, i.e. entry fees or less being returned to the field, I seriously doubt that we will attract more ladies to our events.

My 2 cents - from my own experience, the ladies appreciate you more, when you show them you appreciate their presence.

I think we agree that having more women showing up a tourneys is a good (if not great) thing. How can giving them ore goodies hinder that?

I seriously doubt any player in a women's division is going to feel 'uncomfortable' to the point of not coming out to play any more if they received more money than the winner of another div with the same amount of players.

I am all for (extra) added cash to women's divisions. Craig hit it on the head when he said how much more appreciative the ladies are when they feel appreciated. I believe everyone feels appreciated and good when leaving with more goodies than expected.

I personally don't get all that much exposure to women's divisions but I definitely have noticed how appreciative they are when they feel respected and how dissed they feel when they are not. Just like anyone in any division but I think even moreso with the women's division because they are and 'up and coming' group and are more sensitive (imo) to the goings on impacting their division.

On that note (one more thing), I think it is important for TDs to be extra careful to be sure that all women coming out are treated AT LEAST as fair as any other division if not fairer.

-Scott

I agree 100% with Craig on this one. Two Stroke events have traditionally added more than proportional money to the ladies divisions, both am and pro. In keeping with this, there will be a minimum of $400 added to the womens purse for the Old Dominion Showdown Supertour at the Grange October 21-22. There is also a ladies day at the Grange next weekend with males barred from attendance (to allow women to try the sport in a testosterone free environment).

Craig- please e-mail me. I'm having difficulty with the address I have for you.
-John Biscoe

All I have to say is that every tournament I've been to (all of them in Minnesota) has valued female participation in one way or another. Sometimes that "one way or another" isn't always financial, though... I took home a laser-carved wooden 1st place plaque (very neat looking), a tournament t-shirt, and a free sub certificate from a tournament I won this year -- all of those prizes either fully or partially subsidized by local sponsors. Did I get my entry fee back in cash winnings? No. Did I get lots back for my entry fee? Yes. (Plus a fun day!) So there ARE ways of making women feel welcome at a tournament besides moving money around between divisions... Just my two cents -- thanks for the great discussion! http://pdga.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Shannon, Theo!

Down boys! This is a good thread, don't ruin it, ok?

NK

Oh, yeah, I'm still here http://pdga.com/discus/clipart/happy.gif

Hey, Nick,

Don't worry about Shannon & myself. We have come to an understanding. Everything is cool.
Oh, and by the way, congratulations: on breaking your personal best record--shortest posting.
Sorry, can't help the sarcasm but no harm intended.

Theo

To D.White: You wrote, "To get more women to play you need more women friendly tournaments"

Well, what do you think the Sedgley event was?

Giving away money to women is no big deal. For years, much of the cash added was only added to Pro Mens' or Masters' so, I see nothing wrong with throwing some sponsorship money our way. I've even been to tourneys where they gave away part of the womens' entry purse. That sort of treatment is why many women don't show.

If adding more money to the Womens' purse isn't the way to go, I'd like a detailed explanation from you on what exactly will work. I'm open to suggestions. With your help, maybe we'll get more than 19 women next year.
lisa smith
FSW
groundskeeper

Lisa wrote>>>I've even been to tourneys where they gave away part of the womens' entry purse. That sort of treatment is why many women don't show.

I've been to some of those too, and it's a disgusting practice. It's why my wife quit playing in tournaments.

[anita]

Throwing a "womens friendly" event is easy, if the TD or sponsoring club is willing to put forth the effort. Our TD just asked the right people (the local business womens organization) and he had $100 added to the pro womens division. All three got paid more than the entry fee back. The am ladies weren't short changed, either. Getting sponsorship for your event lets you pamper EVERY division.
Once you get the sponsorship, ADVERTISE IT. A little work beating the sponsorship street will let you encourage the ladies and the guys won't feel cheated.

Thanks for sharing that Shannon. I know your wife and I are not the only ladies who have experienced this. It strikes me as somewhat more than ironic that a lot of guys will get holier than thou about any extra money, whether sponsorship or the entry fees, going to the Womens' purse. I don't think many of them realize that the Womens' purse has been raided in the past. It's been only recently that women have been allotted a share of the added money. It's one of the main reasons that I cutback on attending PDGA events. Why pay all that money and get nothing?

By the way, just got the official results from Sedgley's Paul Fein Challenge. Pro Woman 1st place was $331, 2nd $195, 3rd $126 and, 4th $95. The women actually got more money, (slightly) than the Men's Master's division. Both divisions fielded the same number of entrants. Just want to let the ladies know to come on out next year.

Personally, and what do I know,( I know I"ll take flack for this) I'd like to see a national corporation, or chain maybe with a female owner, become involved with disc golf promotion and support for women, put money, etc into local events, increase ladies participation through effective methods, and blow the males out of the water. Maybe, after some whining by the male dominated sport, the guys will get off their butts and get more involved themselves. I love disc golf and can't imagine not playing until death do us part and I know most men who play feel the same way, but we must realize that If we don't help women get a fair shake, 'nature' will compensate. Guys, this may happen very soon. I've seen it in my life in other arenas.
Go Girls!!!
And Ladies, you just can't imagine how welcome you will feel at one of our tournaments. We have only had a course for a short time(six months)and we are still learning the basics of running tournaments, but we want to have the best events possible. "Lady Golfers Welome Here"
Feedback welcome. Shade PDGA #4030 Orangeburg,SC
ps. Guys, Let me have it, I know it's comin'.

"Lady Golfers W-e-l-c-o-m-e Here"

I have had the good fortune of playing with nothing but supportive men here in Augusta. I moved here about 6 years ago and met Batman and Tommy at Riverview immediately and they said "GLAD TO HAVE YOU, Have you heard about the women's national tournament in NC!". Now,I play with the guys all the time and just stay out of the cash action. I also go to Columbia each spring and play in their doubles. They are great too!
Once I played a Gateway Tournament in Knoxville and the entry fee was $0. I won a lot of nice things too.
The thing about playing in the women's advanced division is, say I finish the year after playing 10 tournaments, all of which I finish 2nd, 3rd or 4th. I only have about 40 points. The men's ADV player who plays 10 tournaments and places in the top four a lot of the time will have like 500 points. But do not compare the two, look at your accomplishments as just that, positive accomplishments.

The one thing I have learned from playing with women in the southeast is that you can have fun and still be professional.
I am so excited about next year because the last tournament I played, there were 6 ADV Women and there are 6 registered for Charleston as well.

But I will say this:I have no problem playing with guys and would play in a tournament with the men if I was the only female b/c one person divisions are kind of swilly. In golf, you are truly only playing against yourself the majority of the time but you have to also learn to think competitively. That is what is hard to accomplish at the tournament level if you do not have something (be it money or glory) to compete for.

DD got beat by a girl, what a maroon/msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif