You're the TD, and you've required 3 or more for a division...

Three women show up, all are PDGA members. One is pro, two are Am-II, what do you do?

How about one pro, and three ams?

one pro, one advanced, one intermediate?

No rule book in front of me, but if 3 or more show up for a division that you are offering, you have to let them play. I consider Open Women, Advanced Women, Intermediate Women three separate divisions. Unless it really screws up your tournament, let them all play together but score them in their individual divisions. For a long time in Appleton, we would get one pro woman show up for some tourneys. She would play the round in one of the Open Men or Masters group and get her 150% payback and be happy.
All you can do as a TD is promote the sport. It is not your fault if few people show up for specific divisions.

Sadly women only make up 7.5% of PDGA members. Our official position is "PDGA encourages womens play everywhere !"

Put them together, score them in their own divisions, let the Ams learn from the Pro. PDGA HQ will credit their points.

Some Pro Women are also starting to play Pro Open (that is, with the boyz) especially where there is no other female player.

I have no solution to your problem, but I do offer this to the "advanced" and "am" ladies: When I started playing and competing in 1987, there was NO adv/am divisions.. only "Women" so that meant (I suppose) PRO women only. So that's who I've competed against all these years and my game (both physical and mental) improved a lot faster than if I'd played and stayed in Adv/Am. My suggestion to the PDGA would be to eliminate all subdivisions in the smaller divisions and just make it one.. but then the adv/am players would not show up and that's one of the reasons why there are more divisions. Caio, Michelle

[anita]

You may offer the am women to play in intermediate. The pro woman would have to play in Open or Masters (if she's old enough).
However, most TDs will make an exception for women as divisions offered are up to the TDs discression.

I've been in this situation: there are four AM women. Three are of age to play Masters and they would like to do so. Do you let just the three? What about the other woman?
I think that TD's need to establish answers to these "whatifs" before a tournament begins. That way situations like this will be decided fairly...not on a spur of the moment basis. Often times, when decided quickly, these situations end up quite sticky. Especially when it comes to points systems for series vs. pdga vs. prizes given out. If it is in a series, perhaps all of the TD's could make sure to stick by the same set of rules regarding these cases. That would make it much easier for us playing (particularly those of us that run into these same division problems weekend after weekend).

[bruce_brakel]

Put them together, score them in their own divisions, let the Ams learn from the Pro. PDGA HQ will credit their points.



This would seem to be the one answer that contradicts the rules. See, 804.06(A).

I don't have a good answer because I don't box myself in that way. I'm fine with a lone pro woman playing for her entry fee so long as she didn't hire Gillooly to break the other chick's knee. That's one of the few reasons why Jen says I'm not quite as obnoxious as I sometimes pretend to be. But, in light of the rule, I always put her with the pro men. The other women would play wherever they would best fit in.

[dischick]

if the three women wanted to play masters, then the other chick is excluded. why don't they just not play masters and then all 4 of them can play? or is there something else that i am missing? that would be the most obviouse solution.
i am almost never the only pro chick that shows up to tournamnets here in MI. but atleast i know that i would never be turned away. i understand the rules, where there is supposed to be 3 (3, right?). but if there was one chick who kept showin up and none others, and she keot getting turned away, after a few times she would probably drop off the face of the earth and never show up again.
I would just like to thank the MDGO crew, bruce brakel, and anyone else who has run a tournament that i have showed up to and let me play when i was the only one. if they wouldn't have it would not have inspired me to ever go back out there. especially when i first got into the tournament scene.
thanx guys!

[anita]

I have been the only women in my division more times than I can count. I have never been turned away from an event. I have had to play open once or twice, but that's no big deal. Usually I end up playing with the pro masters.

Am women should never, I repeat never, be turned away from any event. They are a rare commodity. Make a division for them.

Enjoy and share! :D

[exczar]

Enjoy and share! :D



Anita, I'm not quite sure what you mean by that statement... :o

[rhett]

Dischick, that's a good question. I had the pro women who had been playing Open all year suddenly run and hide and start demanding a masters division when they heard that Juliana was coming to town. :( Fortunately we had some am chicks step up for a chance to play with the champ along with a coupld of out of towners, otherwise I was looking at a 1 person Open division and a 4 person masters division. That, IMHO, is stupid. Even adding $500 to the Open purse didn't make them budge.

[anita]

Gee, I've never ducked a chance to heckle Juliana for 4 rounds! That is cheezy, Rhett.

Enjoy and share!

rules are rules you people keeping putting people down for swearing foot faults and ever other rule in the book pdga rules say three to a div or you must have a offical walking with them.

i personnely do not want to play against anyone that is not in my div, whether it be juliana or not.
if there are not enough women to play in their own div then move up and play the men but do not change the rules just because they are women.

this world has given women enough breaks and maybe the women should go out and get there friends to play just like the men do.

i will not as a td favor any person in this mannor women or men that is just stupid just like the extra div the pdga has come up with just for the whinners do not have to get there butts beat by their friends that atre better then them

just my two cents worth

[dischick]

i am thrilled to have stepped up and had the chance to shoot with THE JK on a couple of occasions this year, as well as DES and LESLIE. i dont want to just shoot average every time i play and see where that takes me. i want to have those phenominal rounds every time i play like any of them do. and by shooting with them it gives me the chance to see how to do it. yeah, it may cost me 100$ or so every time i go, but its some damnnn good lessons.
i think that is totally obnoxiose for anyone to go and try to use their age as an option to not have to shoot with someone cuz they know chances are they are gonna get their azzes kicked. that should be inspiring to have the best round. i only want to win if i am gonna beat the best players on their best day.
today at the tournament that i was td of...PIE IN THE SKY @ CASS BENTON, NORTHVILLE, MI
we ended up only having two BIG pros come out and like 3 masters (yeah, small turnout) and since it was non sanctioned we just made them one division. al SUGAR schack was the only one not of legal age. but since it was non sanctioned, who cares???? we'll call it the OLD GUYS division. it was either that, or let schack shoot am1. all the guys were totally cool about it too. (check out the thread for scores.)

Herm, rule 804.06[c] addresses GROUPS of three, not divisions of three. 804.06[a] shows that the divisions have already been set...the "grouping" therefore pertains to who is on the teepad. Furthermore, as 804.06[a] is mitigated by the terms 'should' and 'as much as practical,' it would therefore appear that while not preferable, it would be permissible to have a group of three containing a one-person division and a two person division [or two and two], and eschew the official.
That's all for now...if anyone can point out ANY error in my logic, please do so; it's important for me to get this JUST SO.
Mr. Lefty, I'll have MORE to say to you tomorrow...I've been trying to respond to your..."comments" for something like FIVE HOURS now, and I'm stil so mad I can't think straight.

i will look at the rule again but i am sure it says three to a div like i said

i am sorry they the little wimps on the bod have changed another rule.

how many times are we going to change rules before they come up with the one they want.

i will never honor the new one if there are not three to a div i will not let them play just like i do not support the extra div.

i play golf for the competition not to cater to a bunch of whimps, i cannot win so can you make me my own div or i am to lazy to go and get my girlfriends to play so can i basically play with you guys in your tourny for free this is stupid to you think tiger woods and company would let a solo girl play in there competition just because she could not start there own.

but i am sorrry that i did not know the rule had been changed again my bad :confused:

[ck34]

PDGA rule 804.08A requires a division to be offered if 4 show up in that division, unless the TD excluded that division ahead of time, usually via a tournament ad or flyer. The rules allow a TD to have divisions with fewer than 4 players. Traditionally, the top divisions in each age or gender category are always available no matter how few show up. That would be all men and women Advanced divisions of all ages, all men and women pro divisions of all ages, and all boy and girl Junior divisions. That's almost all divisions except Int and Rec levels. Ratings events are more streamlined. Only the women, junior and top Gold divisions are typically offered if fewer than 4 show up.

PDGA rule 804.06C requires at least threesomes for playing groups except under extenuating circumstances. Assuming an official to walk with the group is unavailable, one acceptable circumstance would be when a division is only two players. Another might be when two players in a larger division are trailing the others by a significant margin. In some cases like Worlds, it's acceptable when the PDGA Competition Director says it's OK.

thanks chuck i could not find that rule today when i looked but i thought it was a rule.

but i am still sorry that some people will cater to anyone that shows up. if we enforce this rule maybe then the women will go out and get there friends to play.

over 13 years of playing golf and i have at least got 50 people to play regular and 100 just to go out and play.

i have never been not able to find someone to play with even if i have to call a girlfriend or not women can play golf too but i will not cater to them because there to lazy go get some others to play :eek: :p :p :o

[rhett]

Chuck,

We usually only allow the two-some on the course if it is the MPS guys because we know that they aren't going to have a dispute that they can't decide without a third vote. :)

My Bad: I just noticed this thread's title includes the word "you've"...since divisions are a TD's discretion to exclude [by prior announcement] anyways, 8-0 this and 8-0 that isn't going to help...I think this thread wasn't started as a technical DGZ queery per se, but rather in the spirit of asking for advice on how to best NOT discourage women golfers. I was disappointed to find some people don't think that's as important as I do [or at all], but there was some good advice offered here, too.

Although he didn't mention any specific target groups, I'm glad Mr. Pozzy had attracting more individuals atop his list of key goals , and what more under-represented group than women [and juniors]?!? Getting a "satisfactory" quorum of Seniors/Legends is likely to remain iffy, but if 7.5% [for women][out of a pool of roughly 50%, [i] everywhere ] wasn't so tiny, the "problem" of dealing with small fields would likely be moot.

[rhett]

I personally believe that there are major issues with our whole "tournament experience" keeping juniors away. It will be far more difficult to develop a thriving "junior's movement" than simply "getting the kids out to play". If you like to hang out at the park/course and drink beer or do other things, you are actively keeping parents from bringing their children there. I'm not saying this is good or bad. It's just how I see it. Beer and pot = no/not many kids playing.

we have alot of junior players in wash but most do not play tournys because one they can only win a couple disc for there money, two it takes to long to play the rounds and yes three there are alot of them that get chased away because of the other no no's

but the women thing is wrong why cannot they help out them selfs and go get there friends to play or co workers the women are older and have it alot easier to get to a course and play for one most women drive two most women can afford it

[katieb]

hermthelefty, This is not about the world giving women enough breaks. Much of the reason, I believe, that women don't play tourney's is because they are intimidated by some attitudes. I play tourney's because my friends don't play often enough. When we do, it is often on a Sat or Sun morning, and the course is packed. We often have a group of guys come up behind us and think they need to play through. As if there is anywhere to go...Then there are the tourney's with big arm contests for all players. Like I can throw as far as a Pro male or female... I've had guys bug me about trying anyway. I know how far I can throw, so how about having a shorter tee for Am women, juniors, etc. At one tourney with a big entry fee, the players package was a cool watch - too bad it is gigantic and it sits around and collects dust. Maybe if there was a little more consideration for people ofa different level, you'd see more women playing.

I believe that if a division is four poeple, then it is four people. As it is, I am a Am masters female, who plays Advance because there is rarely an intermediate division, and never an Am Masters division. I'd rather be challenged than not. A group of us will contact each other ahead of time to be sure we plan on playing the same tourneys, so we can have a division. <font color="black"> </font>

thou are some good points and i am sorry that some males chase women away. but i on the other hand do not understand why the pdga which stands for pro puts so much time on the am players and on the rec players and all of the other div.

there are only so many real div am,adv.pro masters and so on but where do all these other div come from so old man that never wants to step up and play or i can never win in that div, this is wrong if you are into competition then play in the regular div not these so called made up ones. rec div should me just that rec on your own time for fun not come whine at are competition about you cannot win in any of those div so can you make me up one so i can win.

as far as women most of them here are to lazy and go out find there own friends to play with them or even care enough to try so why cater to them men go out and get there friends to play like i said before.

i am not trying to be unfair just reasonable why should we pay the juniors or women more money then they put in when they do not care enough about them self to go out and recruit more players.

like the usdgc they invite mass people to come out and play but for what. so that over half the field is not even close to the top fifty and they tie up the course when really they should be only inviting the top 100 golfers in the world to come just like they do in ball golf, i mean really what was the last place guys score 85 behind the leader or something and fiffty strokes out of the money.

the pdga and the usdgc need to get there act together and start running real champinoship not the ps was therere making money off now.

sorry about the long winded post and the ranting but this is how i feel.

oh yea i will golf with any women that wants to golf out of tournys

i respect herms opinion, i however do not agree with it, i would ask of herm what has he done to promote women in disc golf...what has he done to promote amatures, or rec players or beginners...what has he done to further the cause of building up a player wether it be man or woman to the point that they can play in a Pro division...i am a amature just recently playing in tournaments to get experiance to play pro one day, but i have seen too much of this PRO(bigshot attitude) soooooo much that I think that the juniors would be discuraged to even be apart of some of the tourneys...herm are you a TD? and if you are would you ever want to run a junior or women only event...or would there not be enough money in it for you..not enough satisfaction of the big guys with the long arms showing up...remember you didnt wake up one day with great skills, you started somewhere and learned with your peers...if only three women show up they should play as the PDGA dictates, that is the rule of the sport, that is what a sanctioned event calls for, it doesnt call for your opinion, or your idea, it calls for a set rule that everyone should follow, so the next time it will be the same as the last time, and people will respect the sport. then maybe more women and juniors and ams and pros will show, more prize money, better trophies, and most important more fun.

yes i td yes if the rules are followed i will do it. yes i am a pro i have been playing for 13 years i will play with anyone during practice rounds girls boys women and ams. i am not into running tournys at all for now and i have never made a buck off td'ing i have always given it back to the sport.

i am now building a monster course here in washington so we can have champingship course.

pdga events are out for me right now no one wants to follow the rules totally so i do not go also that it takes 4 hours to play one round because of too many people.

i think the ams should play their tournys and pro's play theres, there are way to many people to get into one small course and play big tournys.

for years i called everyone to come to tournys but women and ams always have to many reason why that cannot come or that they are to tired to play.

the biggest excuse i here from women is i have not practiced enough to play.

or here they say it is to cold to play in washington but those same women seem to get out and do their clothes shopping or watch their facorite soap opera one girl even wanted to watch tennis instead of getting into a big tourny.

when the women and ams show that they want to play then i will then back and help them :confused:

rest assured, herm doesn't speak for all us lefties

well i am not a lefty i am just a guy that throws side arm 350 to 475 ft :cool:

congrats.