Can calling a stance violation on yourself actually benefit you?

Okay, the reason I stumbled on this question is that when I tee off, if my technique is off a little bit, my steps will be too long and the last one will roll or land off the edge of the tee. Sometimes I point it out to the group, but in the past no one has cared too much (bad shot is its own penalty?).

Here's the scenario:
Rule 803.01 Teeing Off. A)....If a tee pad is provided, all supporting points must be on the pad at the time of release, unless the director has specified a modified teeing area for safety reasons

B) Any supporting point contact outside the teeing area at the time of release constitutes a stance violation and shall be handled in accordance with sections 803.03 F, G, and H.

803.03 F) A stance violation must be clearly called within 3 seconds after the infraction to be valid. The call can be made by any member of the group or an official. (*Does this mean any member, including the thrower?)
....it must subsequently be confirmed by another member of the group. (*Obviously, if no one confirms it, then I take the shot.)
A player shall receive a warning for the first violation of a stance rule in the round. Subsequent violations of a stance rule in the same round shall incur a one-throw penalty.

Am I interpreting this correctly, in that if the thrower steps off the tee pad as I described, calls himself for a stance violation within 3 seconds, and someone else confirms it, he re-tees with only a warning. If this happens late in the round, the thrower would "benefit" from this, with little risk of it happening again before the end of the round.

Ethically, I don't think exploiting this rule would be in the best interest of the game, but for the purposes of this mess bored, I'm curious to see if my "loophole" passes the smell test.

[august]

This loophole has been discussed before. You can call a foot fault on yourself, but like you said, it has to be seconded, and yes, you get a break and can take your shot again without penalty. But if it happens again in the round, you get stroked. You also have to be sure your "loophole" shot is better than the first one because you must take the rethrow.

Good luck getting someone to second your call, lol.

The more commmon scenerio is using this rule to your advantage in a doubles round. You call yourself on a stance violation and have your partner second the call.

[neonnoodle]

Yes, this could happen. Doubles or Singles it would have to be an actual foot fault though. If it wasn't and someone saw that it wasn't then that player (and the doubles partner in doubles) might see this rule inforced:

RULE: 804.05 DISQUALIFICATION & SUSPENSION
A. A player may be disqualified by the director for meeting any of the necessary conditions of disqualification as set forth in the rules, or for any of the following:
(3) Cheating: a willful attempt to circumvent the rules of play.

Forget strokes, you're done buddy. PDGA suspension pending investigation... POW!

[gnduke]

Could be that everybody was much busier watching the flight of your bad shot than the placement of your foot on release of your disc. Might be real hard to find a second to your call.

If it is common that you have problems releasing within the confines of the T-box/mark, you will call attention to this and may get several more foot faults called and seconded before the round is over.

[neonnoodle]

I like the argument concerning this situation that goes this way:

A player clearly foot faults, and you see it and call it right away. You look around for a confirmation and one guy says, it wasn’t a foot fault. You look at the 4th person in your group and they say that they didn’t watch so they don’t know.

According to the very first rule in our rulebook:

RULE: 801.01 COURTESY
A. Players should not throw until they are certain that the thrown disc will not distract another player or potentially injure anyone present. Players should watch the other members of their group throw in order to aid in locating errant throws and to ensure compliance with the rules.

The player that said they weren’t watching has committed a Courtesy violation. If called, it need not be seconded. It is marked on the card as a warning and any other Courtesy violations occurring in that round and called (again, no need to be seconded) will result in a 1 stroke penalty per violation!

Now I have never seen this done, but there it is! Our very first rule!

Try this devil's advocate example:

Let's say I'm playing one of the last couple holes of the round, and the pin is across a lake. I tee off, stepping off the front edge of the pad, and it's obvious that the drive is looping up and won't clear the water. I call stance violation and, since it is clear that I almost fell off the tee pad, it's likely that someone will back up the call.

Free mulligan near the end of a round???......

[rhett]

Next time you are on my card you can be guarrenteed that I will call all stance violations on you, no matter how tiny, just to be sure your warning is "used up" before you can use it to intentionally circumvent the rules. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Oh, and I'll tell all the locals how you cheesed your way out of the OB stroke so they'll watch your feet, too.

> since it is clear that I almost fell off the tee pad, it's likely that someone will back up the call.

Yeah, right. Good luck finding someone other than your partner in doubles to second the call.

Back in 1997, Brent Hambrick slipped completely off the tee on hole 4 at Worlds and threw his disc backwards downhill 200 feet, but no one called him for a foot fault.

Fact is, players rarely call foot faults on another player even when the violation is obvious and the thrower makes a good throw, so igood luck getting them to make the call when the thrower makes a bad throw and potentially stands to benefit from a rethrow. In fact, it's not uncommon to hear players talk about another player's propensity to foot fault, but not to make the call when one occurs.

[august]

And this is why we should eventually have marshalls on every hole for all PDGA sanctioned events.

> And this is why we should eventually have marshalls on every hole for all PDGA sanctioned events.

Sounds good in theory (and I'm not opposed to it), but where's a TD going to come up with 18 rules-literate, non-playing volunteers (don't necessarily have to be certified officials: TDs can empower spotters to make rulings, 804.09.D)? Heck, most tournaments I've been to don't even have 18 SPECTATORS. (And let's not even get into the logistical problems, even assuming he/she does come up with 18 qualified volunteers.)

[august]

True Felix. That's why I said eventually. We need to grow a little and figure out how to get through all the issues you cited. I don't think it's a good idea to enpower spotters to make rulings though.

USDGC is planning to have marshals on every hole this year. Gotta start somewhere and this is a good place. The concept will hopefully grow from there.

[neonnoodle]

Sometimes I have concern that there are even 18 people PDGAwide that have a firm understanding of the rules and willing not to play, let alone at one event. We're working on this challenge though...

[august]

That's a good one, Nick.

[neonnoodle]

Who here has a firm knowledge of the rules? I know what we've got, but the things we don't have give me pause in claiming that I do.

Yeah...right. That's a good one. There is no pause in your claiming to know everything.

[chains11864]

QUESTION???

Could a person use this rule to their advantage during a putt (within 10 meters)?

Example: Late in a final round, I am down 1 or 2 strokes from the leader...so, I am putting on the final 3 or 4 holes. Each putt I throw, I INTENTIONALLY try to predict if it is going in, and when I am sure it is going in, I maintain my balance, BUT, on the 1 shot that is not going in I lose my balance and fall forward, quickly calling myself on a "falling putt", and, (if I am reading the rule corretly), I only need another to second the violation, and I get a SECOND CHANCE at that very important putt, with no penalty stroke?

Would never do this, and Nicks' courtesy rule applies if someone could prove you are doing it intentionally, but just thought I would put it up as a possible "loop-hole" example...

Also, I think that the rules should be rules PERIOD. Seems that the idea of "warnings" just adds to the confusion about disc golf rules.

2 cents...

> Could a person use this rule to their advantage during a putt

Of course, you MIGHT be able to get away with it ONCE per round, assuming that no one else realizes what's at stake AND someone else would actually second your self-call in that situation. Given that most Open and Adv players with a chance to cash keep track of where they stand, at least mentally, however, I very much doubt that you'll get someone to second the call if you DO miss the putt; if you MAKE it, you can pretty much guarantee someone will second it.

If the falling putt is a verifiable (easily noticeable) falling putt and nobody in the group seconds it, because THEY DO KNOW what’s at stake.
Could they be penalized for cheating and not seconding it?
Assuming they don't realize he/she was using the falling putt rule to cheat.

[neonnoodle]

RW, you're fixating again. Take a deep breath.

> Could they be penalized for cheating and not seconding it?

Yes they could, but good luck trying to prove it.

"Falling putt??? Sorry, I wasn't watching." (courtesy violation, but only warning first time.) "Sorry, didn't see it. I was watchng the disc."

[chains11864]

So, MAYBE the idea of NO WARNINGS in disc golf would make things easier to enforce, and take out the second guessing, and "bending" of the rules?

IMO..,the warnings should only apply to the beginning groups in disc golf, to keep the sport fun for those just starting, but at the Advanced AM level and up, I think the rules should lose the "warning" part.

2 more cents