Practice Throw

I have my rule based opinion on this question, and I am sure it's been covered somewhere before; but here it goes...

When you toss a mini during a round, does it count as a practice throw?

Rule based opinions wanted.

No. (http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&c2coff=1&selm=3sietm$4un@crcnis3.unl.edu)

No, but it can be construed as a courtesy violation. If it is deemed a distraction by another player.

[wforest]

YES . period
.
section 806 defines "Practice Throw" : "During a round , the projection of a disc ... "
. also defines "Throw" : "The propulsion of a disc ..."
.
Now , in several places including 802.01F and 802.02 , a "mini marker" is described as a "DISC"
.
clear enuff : if you cause the "propulsion" or "projection" of a "disc" (this would include kicking) = PRACTICE THROW !
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(this is directly from our current Rules Book and , IMO , it needs work)

I'd say no. Rule 806 defines a practice throw as "projection of a disc..." While disc is not a defined term in the glossary, Rules 802.01 and 802.02 clearly differentiate between "discs" and "mini marker discs". They are not the same thing under the rules. Therefore, thowing the mini is not a practice throw, but it could be ruled a courtesy violation.

[LouMoreno]

According to PDGA TECHNICAL STANDARDS,

"To be used in PDGA competition, discs must:
...
(3) not be less than 21 cm in outside disc diameter, nor exceed 40 cm in outside disc diameter;"

That's would have to be one bigass mini to qualify as a disc. /clipart/happy.gif

[gnduke]

according to rule 802.02: "Mini marker discs must have a diameter of between 7 and 15 centimeters and a height not exceeding 3 centimeters."

If a mini was big enough to be a disc, it would not be a mini any more.

No. A mini marker disc do not conform to the specifications set forth in Rule 805.B, specifically:

"To be legal in PDGA competition, a disc must:

(4) not be less than 21 centimeters or greater than 40 centimeters in outside disc diamater."

Objects that CANNOT be legal are not governed by the Official Rules of Disc Golf, and may be thrown with impunity, subject to the stipulations of Rule 801.01.

(Note the distinction between "cannot" and "is not". Object that "cannot be" legal in PDGA competition are objects that do not conform to the technical specifications set forth in Rule 805.B; objects that "are not" legal MAY conform to the technical specifications but violate other conditions set forth in the rules, e.g., a cracked or an unapproved disc.)

[wforest]

Gentlemen ... this is exactly my point :
our rules do not say (projection or propulsion) of a "disc used in PDGA competition" or a "disc of 21 or 40 cm" . . . . the rules as we have them merely say : "a disc" . . . and yes , the mini marker is described in the same rules as " disc "
. . . we all know (or think we know) what the rules writers are trying to say or what their intent is , but ... as things are currently defined by our rules : don't throw , toss , kick , drop your mini (or any other disc) . . . if you do, you just projected / propelled a disc ... PRACTICE THROW . . . automatic stroke .
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our current rules need overhaulin'
,,, forest

I agree with wforest that if you go by the current rule book, a mini IS considered a disc. It might not be leagle to drive with, but still a disc none the less.

8 Year??? That post is from 8 years ago (That would be at least two rule books ago). So that opinion is invalid.

Keep those opinions comming...

[discette]

Here is the exact rule folks: (cut and pasted from the rule book on-line!)

803.00B. A player who throws a practice throw or an extra throw with ANY DISC ANY TIME after the start of his or her round and prior to his or her finishing the last hole of the round (except for throws that must be re-thrown in accordance with the rules, provisional throws made pursuant to 803.00 C (3) or throws during a suspension or postponement of play) shall receive ONE PENALTY THROW. The practice throw or extra throw must be observed by any two players or an official.

I think the words "ANY DISC" say it all.

Often, the rule book refers to a mini marker disc as a "marker disc". (See 803.10D & 803.06B for examples) Two words - marker - disc. This implies a marker disc is a disc. The rule says ANY disc. Since a marker disc is a disc the player receives ONE PENALTY THROW!!!!!

Again, the rule says any disc, a marker disc is clearly a disc.

No need to rewrite anything.

[pnkgtr]

It's also against the rules to throw a non-legal disc.

[Chris Hysell]

Please stop it. I am getting so confused. For many years my opinion was that the mini wasn't a legal disc and this fell under the courtesy violation rules. Now I don't know what to think.

Does a crushed beer can qualify as a disc?

[Chris Hysell]

Brad, no it doesn't. The bad news is that now you can no longer throw a compact disc.

[jeffnichols]

What if you throw out a disk in your spine? Penalty stroke too?

If this was a situation that arose at a tournament and I was asked to make the call, I'd call it a practice throw. Since I'm an official I guess that's fair warning if you know what I look like. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

While not directly addressing the question of whether throwing a mini is a practice throw, this post on the origin of the rule regarding practice throws by Dave Dunipace (http://www.pdga.com/discus/messages/42/6094.html?#POST90965) provides food for thought.

Well that sheds some dreary fog on the rule, doesn't it?

It's all OK, Jon. My short and correct answer above should remove all confusion. [;-)] According to the rules, a "disc" is one thing and a "mini marker disc" is another thing (just like a car is one thing and a Hot Wheels car is another). The definiton of "practice throw" refers to a disc, not a mini marker disc. The minimum circumference of a "disc" is 21cm., while the maximum circumference of a mini marker disc is 15 cm. While Discette's post points out some possible confusion, the rules she cites concerns the penalty for a practice throw, and I don't think that rule can expand the definition of what constitutes a "practice throw." Just because "mini marker disc" has the word disc as part of its name, that doesn't make it a "disc" as set forth in the rules. A "disc" is defined in Rule 802.01, and that definition is clearly not the same as for a mini (Rule 802.02)

[wforest]

disc disc disc ... tsk tsk tsk /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

A mini doesn't just have "disc" in it's title, it has the word "disc" in it ruel book glossary definition. So Rob you're just making assumptions that is not in accordance with the rules.

[bruce_brakel]

If you are going 120 m.p.h. down I-94 in a Hot Wheels, you're still gonna get busted.

Rob, what I was referring to was felix's link to the Dave Dunipace post talking about the origins of the rule. According to Dave, the makers of the rule weren't intending to make it illegal to toss a disc to someone out of convenience, they were making it illegal to practice putting because they thought it would be distracting to other players. Sounds like if they had written it the way they intended, it would be legal to play some catch with putter while waiting on a backed up hole.

[exczar]

Quick opinion/answer without rule book in front of me:

Since a marker disc cannot be used in play to advance/change your lie, I would think that it would not be considered a "disc", and therefore not considered a practice throw. This agrees with what Felix posted in his Wed. 909AM message.

It very well could be a courtesy violation, but that is not what Jason asked.

As an aside, it is legal on the PGA tour to conduct certain types of practice during a round.

DGRZ 001

[wforest]

good point about the PGA , Mr.Burns ... after all, we do look at their succe$$ and attempt to pattern our events & tournaments after "the big brother" , Ball Golf ... some aspects of our current rules book need changed or re-worded to better reflect the intent of particular rules ... ie :this would keep "rules zealots" from making me charge penalty strokes for tossing a mini , or kicking a disc ... both of which would be infractions if going by the written rules we now have ... but , once again , I stress the need for overhauln' our "current rules book" and the problems it can cause ...
.
after all : It Is A "Sport" /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

wforest, what specific rule changes do you recommend and how would they be worded?

I am pretty much a rookie disc golfer, and earlier this year I asked for advice on what the most common rule violations are before I played in my first PDGA tourney. I was told that one of the most common rule violations is the placement of one's foot behind the marker, and I find that mistake to be committed by many players. It would be cool if the PDGA could put a few simple pictures in the rule book to help clarify the rules. For example they could have a stick figure standing with their foot legally behind the marker on the imaginary line going from the center of the marker to the basket pole, and then they could show the illegal placement of the foot (or support point) behind the marker, but to the left or right of center.

Maybe a section in the rule book with the top five common rule misinterpretations to avoid would help get everyone on the same page and reaching their final score through the same procedures.

Make sense?

Hey, Jon ... I knew you were talking about the DD post regarding the origins of the rule, and I was just trying to address the main topic without refering the "intent" of the rule drafters. It's a very tricky thing to rely on "intent", especially when the language of the rule itself provides an answer. No doubt the language could be tightened up to be more clear, but I still think my interpretation of the current rule is the correct one.
In fact, it might not be a bad idea to specifically include "mini marker disc" in the definition of "penalty throw" to prohibit the throwing of a mini during a tournament round. I've never seen a 15 cm mini, but I think I could do some useful putting practice with one, which, I'm sure, would violate the "intent" of the rule.
Hey Bruce .... where can I get one of those 120 MPH Hot Wheels? ..... :-)
And Jason, I'm not making assumptions. I'm reading the rules. Every time the rules refer to a mini, it is called a "mini marker disc" or a "marker disc", which, as I read it, is different from a "disc".

how about we all play a round of golf and have fun.

I understand your point Rob and appreciate that you think you are right. Unless the wording of the rule book changes, I will rule that it is a violation to throw a mini marker disc. I have never had to make that call as an official or a TD and doubt that I will, but if needed, that's the call I'm making.