Most Common Rules Violations?

What are common rookie rules violations? I am going to be playing in my first PDGA tourney this Memorial Day weekend,and would appreciate hearing tips on playing by the rules and avoiding penalty strokes.

[jconnell]

Here's the best tip one can get...read the rule book. http://pdga.com/rule_book.php

I'd focus on section 803 to start...that covers all the rules of physical play like marking the lie, out of bounds penalties, and holing out.

And also be familiar with section 804 covering tournament scenarios, especially 804.02 and 804.05.

Finally, don't be afraid to ask others for a clarification if you are unsure what to do. Most people have no problem explaining how to handle situations within the rules.

But seriously, at least give the rule book a once-over before you play. You don't have to commit it to memory, but at least you'll be able to tell when someone's messing with you with a "phantom" rule./clipart/happy.gif

Knowledge is power.

--Josh

The two I see more often than not is the 30 second violation and the falling putt.

The falling putt happens more in INT and REC divisions and the 30 second happens mainly in ADV and INT.

Josh is right though. Make sure you know section 804.

/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

1. Stepping through putts
2. Not having a supporting point DIRECTLY on the line projected from the target...through the center of the mark.
3. Slapping the chains...which is a violation itself...and not releasing the disc when putting it in the basket.
4. Walking ahead of the away player. This is something you simply shouldn't do...you, or your equipment could be hit by a shot.
5. VERY IMPORTANT...Proper scoring, proper totalling of the scores and MOST IMPORTANT...making sure the scorecards are turned in.

6. Marking your lie with a mini or playing from behind your thrown disc as it lies. I still see new tourney players flipping their discs as a mark. That is definitely not allowed.

[ching_lizard]

I'd agree that sloppy foot-work is the number one offense I witness over and over again.

Addendum to ChingLizard: When looking down after my shot.

/msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

After playing in my first PDGA tourney this weekend I would say just flat out cheating on the stroke count is the problem we had on our card. I will not mention any names.

[specialk]

Practice throws.

Number 1 = Not puting your foot behind your mini when it is difficult to throw if you do so. To the side is not correct!!! I see this all the time even in the open divisions.
Number 2 = Foot faulting. I am one of the most guilty people out there in casual rounds because I am playing for FUN and practice. But it blows me away to see people throw from outside the box in a tournament.
Number 3 = Not keeping your mouth shut while others are throwing or putting.(unless you are playing wolf.)

[specialk]

Don't just read the rulebook. <FONT COLOR="ff0000">Carry it with you</FONT> so you you know what the proper call is in most situations. Also saves a call for an official.

I'm sorry Jerry, what was that you said? I didn't hear you, I was trying to putt. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

jerry, number 3 hit home, just yesterday as I was trying to catch the leaders with a nice long birdie, I take my time visualize me releasing the disc in the chains, and as I am about to execute what I just visualized, some dilwad says "are you going to putt" as I am in motion. This is my first time to meet this guy.(wish I was Yeti's size /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif ) So, I went over to him and asked "did you just say something as I was putting?, I did not take the time to focus so you could blurt something out in the middle of my shot." but in hindsight it is all silly!

[rhett]

Read the rulebook, cover to cover. It's only 36 very small pages. Put it in a baggy with your PDGA card and put it in the zipper pouch of you bag.

You don't have to memorize it, but by reading through it once you have a decent chance of remembering what kinds of things are in it, and maybe even about where to start looking for them if need be. This is important because other players will announce things, quite authoritatively, like the proper way to mark an OB disc is "1 meter in, no closer to the hole", which is in fact quite wrong. You don't have to memorize that rule, but if you have read it once it shouldn't sound quite right when quoted wrong, and you can look it up if you have the book. Read it cover to cover a couple of more times in the next month and then you will actually feel confident that you can find a rule in question quickly in it.

[kyle]

I'll go with KNOW the rule book.

1. Foot Faults
2. Improper stance.
3. Littering.
4. OB and relief rules.
5. Casual relief rules.
6. Knowing how to find rules in the book.

[gnduke]

The one most argued at the last tournament concerned marking the lie, and definition of LOP if a mini was not used.

1. It was argued that the mini could be placed anywhere on the front edge of the disc.

Since the wording of 803.02-A does not mention LOP, This can be done by placing a mini marker disc on the playing surface between the hole and the disc, directly in line with the hole, touching the thrown disc. a weak argument can be made that almost anywhere along the front edge of the disc meets the letter of the rule as long as a line directly from the basket through the marker crosses through a part of the thrown disc. I do not think it is in keeping with the spirit of the rule though.

2. The other argument was that if a thrown disc was used as a marker, a stance could be taken from anywhere behind the larger mini (not directly behind the center of the disc).

Here 803.03-A is very clear. A player must Have at least one supporting point that is in contact with the playing surface on the line of play and within 30 centimeters directly behind the marker disc.

The definition of line of play is: The imaginary line on the playing surface extending from the center of the target through the center of the marker disc and beyond.

This wording clearly does not allow a player to stand behind one edge of the marker disc, but requires the stance to behind the center line of the marker disc.

Which moron on the lead card didn't know that? /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[specialk]

There is a glossary in the back of the book that describes those terms in detail.

Thanks for all the comments. What do you do if someone picks up your disc parked beneathe the basket and hands it to you?

a.) say thank you and walk to the next tee.

b.) worry that you'll get penalty stroked for not holing out and refuse.

if the answer is (b) -- do you have to warn or penalize the guy who picked up your disc?

Btw, I am fantasizing about my disc being parked beneathe the basket. Usually that only occurs after my third or fourth putt :-)

[jconnell]

Rob,

I would hope that anyone you play with at the tournament would know not to do that (in a casual round, it's fine). But if they do, kindly ask that they not do it during the tournament before you start giving warnings and penalties.

If the person does the typical "awww, it's a gimme, take it" line out of kindness, just explain the rule for holing out (803.12) and then explain what can happen to him/her for picking up your disc... (RULE 803.06 C. Any player who consciously alters the course of a thrown disc, or consciously moves or obscures another player's thrown disc at rest or a marker disc, other than by the action of a competitively thrown disc or in the process of identification, shall receive two penalty throws, without a warning, if observed by any two players or an official.)

That will make him think twice, or at least be more conscious of "being a good sport" and handing you the gimme.

Not that anyone would really assess that 2 strokes on someone, but you never know what someone else in the group feels about the rules (and he/she might be the stickler to call it).

--Josh

[sandalman]

you must refuse the disc... replace it, mark it, and play it as you are supposed to.

btw... you will not need anyone in your group to agree to assess the 2 strokes. you just need someone in the group to SEE the guy pick up your disc. you can assess the 2 strokes without a "second".

anybody who picks up my disc even if is leaning on the base of the pole better be prepared to add the 2 strokes to his/her score. this is like a most basic rule for tournament play.

[gnduke]

Randy, I honestly can not remember if it was a person on the card defending that position personally, or remarking on someone else's play. I do know that it was brought up and discussed for a couple of holes. I think the walk from 14 to 16 on Cameron.

[sandalman]

gary, ya saying the lead card skipped hole 15? no wonder they they beat the rest of the field /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[gnduke]

no, the conversation lasted from 14 through 15 and into 16.

Rob...technically, if the TD finds out that someone handed you your disc...and you failed to mark where it was last seen to be at rest and then complete the hole...the TD would probably be kind and agree that you inadvertantly failed to hole out...

In which case...2 stokes would be added to your score for the hole. I would think nobody would say that you purposefully failed to hole out...which could be grounds for disqualification.

So anyway...be sure and finish every hole. And if you want to join the party which says the rules must be called...I guess you're going to have add the 2 stokes to the poor unknowing person who was just trying to help. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[rhett]

Technically, if the guy hands you your disc and you know that there are no gimmes but take it and walk to the next tee, you are intentionally circumventing the rules and should DQ yourself.

I actually had a guy pick up my gimme and hand it to me last weekend. I walked back over to the dirt spot where my failed 30 footer had nuzzled up to the pin and putted out from there. I probably should have been given a marking violation warning. He noticed and didn't hand me another one.

Since this is my first PDGA tourney I am going to play Intermediate. My guess is others will be new too. Maybe the wise thing is to bring up the hole out rule before it becomes an issue?
I was playing an ace fund a few weeks ago and the guy who won AMs missed a five foot putt and then
acted like it would be ridiculous to make him own it since gimmes had been picked up by others at some holes. somehow he didn't realize how ridiculous it was of him not to score himself based on how many shots it took him to hole out. if I had it over I would have said something. (fortunately, he did win by more than one stroke)

imo, these are the most abused rules...

#1. stepping to the side of a mini during upshots.

#2. advancing past the out player

#3. talking while folks are driving and/or putting

[rhett]

#1 stepping to the "good side" of the mini during obscured upshots. (If it doesn't matter then there should be an equal number of misses to the bad side, but zero go that way.)

#2 stepping past the mini or off the LOP on the fairway runup.

#3 backing into the bushes to "clear a path" for your putt.

#4 failing to properly hole out. If we are talking beginners, then they frequently just slap the chains on the 2-foot drop in instead of releasing the disc.

[pnkgtr]

Stepping past or no where near the mini is very common but I would consider what I've seen to be minor. But I've seen three or four examples of cheating on the score card (a major violation). Most recently two open players in Bakersfield trying to tell me they had fours when they actually had fives. I guess they figured that I wouldn't notice or care since I was in another division. But since I could recount the throws and lies of each of their shots, they took their fives.

You can still step to the side of the mini if one of your supporting points (ie balls of the foot) is still behind and in line with the mini and basket, right?

And if your deep in the bush and need to get to your disc a little inadvertant movement of limbs is okay, right? I can't magicly appear behind the disc and not move the branches.

"And if your deep in the bush and need to get to your disc a little inadvertant movement of limbs is okay, right? I can't magicly appear behind the disc and not move the branches"

No you can walk to your disc. Just don't intentionally break limbs and branches on your way there. Moving branches really only matters when your trying to get a stance or in your throwing motion.

Rule 803.04 (a) states:

Obstacles to a Stance or Throwing Motion: Players must choose a stance which results in the least movement of any part of any obstacle except as allowed for casual obstacles by 803.04 C. No relief is granted from park equipment (such as signs, trash cans, picnic tables, etc.) as they are considered part of the course. Once a legal stance is taken, a player may not move an obstacle (or hold it back or bend it) in order to make room for a throwing motion. It is legal for a player's throwing motion to make incidental movement of an obstacle.

So getting there isn't the issue, it's what you do when you you get there that really matters.

Backing in creates as little movement of the branches as any other way. But done mostly to prevent injury in the form of scratches. Do you want scratchs on your face because you were not smart enough to back slowly in?

I played in a tournament last weekend which was being held for the first time. The first round, the TD tried to put someone in each group who he knew would know the rulebook and be able to answer questions about the rules as the round went on. Since a lot of the players in this tournament were playing in their first tournament, this proved to be a great idea. We had many discussions throughout the first round about stances, how OB works, etc. All the new guys got to see some of the rules in action and were a little better prepared for the 2nd round when we were group by score. This may not work with larger tournaments, but with a pretty small local tournament where the TD is familar with the players, I think it's something to consider.

[neonnoodle]

Jerry, not entering the tree or bush creates the least, it creates no movement. I favor the rule that if you cannot avoid any movement, other than incidental, you should be able to do like a ball drop behind the tree or bush and play on, penalty stroke or not.

As someone who has played from the back of the tournament on several occasions, I can tell you that the most common "violations" by newcomers are:

1. mini abuse - not just off to the good side but in front of, on top of or 3 feet behind.

2. falling putts

3. chain slapping

If you watch your feet and play your game you'll have a good experience.

[rhett]

Jerry,

You aren't serious are you? When your disc is three feet in a bushy bush and you start at the fairway and back up until you reach it, you have just illegally cleared the whole three foot path between your disc and the fairway and greatly improved your lie! The rule says "least movement possible". It also says quite explicitly that you are not allowed to move any obstacle between your lie and the hole! It's illegal to back in and clear a path to improve your lie.

You should slither in from the side or behind, taking care to cause the least movement possible while you take your stance.

[specialk]

... even if you have to crawl on your belly.

better have safety goggles on.

[gnduke]

If you can back into you lie without bending, breaking, or holding back any part of the obstacle that is between your lie and the hole it may be possible. Anything else violates 803.04-B

Not that hard.
Whenever I come to an unfortunate lie, under/in a bush, ie: tough lie, I will ask the following:
1. Decide to use a mini or play the disc? Decided by; how close I can get my toe and if possible my heel. Within 30cm (length of my foot -2in to be safe) of the mini or disc. Remember: If playing from the disc, it can add needed distance from the obstacle. addl.10in?

I squeeze or place my toe, heel, finger behind that lie...carefully, and set up for the shot. I rarely move things around my lie. I threw it there, I'll play it.

The rest goes for any and all shots...

2. Is my heel/toe/finger (supporting point) touching that imaginary 30cm 'line of play' directly behind my lie?
Deciding factor; Am I in balance AND staying in accordance to the 30cm imaginary 'line of play' directly behind my lie.
KEY POINT: When behind your lie, back facing the basket, and you place your foot behind the lie (heel closer to disc), and throw, you actually lift your heel and could be warned for a FF.
3. When I release, what is my last supporting point going to be??
Whatever it is...keep it in the, say it together, 30cm imaginary 'line of play' behind my lie.
4. Am I in balance? In line for the shot? Right disc? Right height? It's in? Really??!!

Sounds like a lot. Shooting FROM a lie is easy, it's the flight that is key. But it is an overlooked awareness and some are playing and abiding while others look for advantages...oh and all the grey in between.

Laters
Tony

Need to add to that. If that lie is in a bush, I will stretch out and put my toe/heel behind it as desribed above. It's up to my physical ability, in whichever posistion I have the best balance, to know a shot that would give me the best chance. When a disc is IN the base of some thick bushes, there is no way a body is going to fit directly behind that lie. Gotta stretch out to the side somehow.

Acorn open is tomoorow. PDGA C in Minn. I'll keep my eye out.

Tony

I'm surprised to hear that there are so many mini violations. Maybe I'm not watching.

In the NW, courtesy violations BY FAR the #1 rule broken if you wanna be a hardliner about it. Easily ten times the violations of all other rules combined. Maybe 20 times.