Insert 804.05 A. (4) Discussions Here

Its not fair, as was pointed out, to have this discussion cluttering up one tourney's thread when its a problem a lot of folks have something to say about.

So, here 'ya go.

I'll go first. Metal, you're a fun guy to play with, a good golfer and a good sponsor. I'm glad you stated that you don't do this at tourneys. What I can't get on board with, though, is your assumption that this isn't flagrant cheating. How do you figure? You mean I shouldn't hesitate to DQ someone for trying to pencil whip me, but its okay if some guy has an unfair advantage and is completely relaxed and comfortable in his head when he steps up to his birdie putt, while following the rules of play I'm shaking like a leaf when I look at my putt knowing that I missed the last three? You think being relaxed and not feeling the stress of the need to make a particular shot isn't an advantage during a tournament? I know if I was buzzed, it would be a lot easier to conquer my particular problem of being a head case when it comes to putting.

Look folks, not to be too condescending, but what is so difficult about this concept?

If someone in my division is cheating, whether its foot faults or 804.05 A.(4), you can bet your arse I'm gonna call them on it. The difference is that sometimes people don't know they're foot faulting and they'll pay attention to it when its pointed out. The people that are breaking that other rule don't care and will call you a narc and give you a bunch of crap if you open your mouth. Do I want to finish ahead of someone better than me just because they cheated? No, but I didn't ask them to cheat. Not my problem.

Randy's right (that smarted), the people who screw this one up should come forward and have the testicles to take the responsibility off of those who speak up. Of course, he's delusional if he thinks this is gonna happen (there, that felt better).

Also, everyone who knows me, knows what kind of a lifestyle I led for many years as a wannabe rock star. I would be the last person to sit in moral judgement of how anyone wants to run their own lives. That's not what this is about.

And, lastly, if you break a rule that you don't think is harming anyone and then later find out that its harmful, does that make you a hypocrite? If you then become an outspoken proponent for a little stricter adherance to this rule, does that make you a hypocrite? The answer to both questions is No! It might make you a pain in the ***, but not a hypocrite. A hypocrite is someone who says they don't do or condone something that they themselves do.

I'm not a hypocrite and being a pain in the *** is nothing new.

[thcplz]

ALL GOOD POINTS, but don't ya think that why they smoke in a sanctioned event is cause in the casual round their smoking and they play better(not just cause of the weed), also because it's just a practise round.

just cause you point out foot faults doesn't mean that they look for it, they just know that your looking for it.(if they think your not watching they'll try it again.

???out of couriousty(spl), what if some one is eating a brownie, does that mean that you have to check it to see if it's not a SPECIAL brownie???
there are ways to comflage almost anything. my concert years taught me that.

Guess its time to get a good prescription of Valium, then nobody will be able to call you on an 804.05(A) violation. LEGAL drugs, nobody can say SQUAT about!!!

Though, Legalization is DEFINATELY the best solution.

Support your local NORML chapter!!!!!!

GIMME THAT BROWNIE!!! *sniff* sniff* AHA!!!

Mark, sounds like we have the same putting style/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif
I am always a head case no matter the matter

"ALL GOOD POINTS, but don't ya think that why they smoke in a sanctioned event is cause in the casual round their smoking and they play better(not just cause of the weed), also because it's just a practise round."

That's one of my main points, Mike. A tourney round is supposed to be different than a casual round. If there's something that you do in a casual round that is actually against the rules of play, its unfair for you to stay within that comfort level during a sanctioned round while everyone else around you is treating the tourney round as something to be held to a higher level (sorry 'bout that). I play better in casual rounds too.

And when I point out foot faults, I think it does mean they're looking for it. And they should be. Its one of the things that I have to think about when I throw. Why shoudln't everyone else that plays the same game by the same rules have to think about the same things?

As for the brownies or cookies or whatever you can cook up, I'll say two things.

1) Fact is that because of the wording of 804.05 A.(4), you're still breaking a rule. Of course since nobody will know (unless they notice that the more you munch, the worse your munchies get), you'll probably be able to get away with it.

2) Does that mean you should? I once cost myself 2 strokes in a tourney because I noticed that my stance on my putt was illegal after I nailed the putt. No one else in my group saw it and when I noticed it and pointed it out they all said, "Don't worry about it." I do worry about it. I re-putted from the correct spot and missed. I'm not very competitive score-wise most of the time, but when I look in the mirror, I'm satisfied that I play the game by the rules laid out for us all and that I don't ever (knowingly) cheat. I'm not gonna become a brownie-checker, but as long as its a rule, hey, you gotta live with yourself.

[gnduke]

A brownie is a brownie (until you start advertising different). If it is a special brownie, please try to keep that information to yourself, and no one has grounds to complain.

Cong (and others), if there was a magic pill that would help my putting, you can bet I'd try to get a legal prescription for it. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

If you guys want to continue the discussion about legalization, then I'm sure there are message boards out there in the great wwwide open that would be better suited for it than one where we discuss our sport. Don't you think?

If you want me to join NORML, we can talk about that. If you want me to sign a petition, we can talk about that. If you're determined to keep breaking a rule of play simply because its one you don't support, we really don't have a lot to talk about.

[sandalman]

valium can be good for putting... thats why it is used by military snipers. but it sure can destroy your drives. for me, the minuses outweigh the pluses.

I think it would be wise to rethink the "I'm not going to call it if it isn't blatantly cheating" statement.

It is your duty as a PDGA member, playing in a PDGA event, to call all rules violations. It certainly isn't just for cheating. This is an important concept. While some suggest marshalls and the like, it's kind of like legalization...it's a good idea but it aint happenin. We have to make the calls that we see or there is a good chance we are cheating someone that is having to adhere to the rules. This holds true for all the rules.

A decision to not make the call on illegal substance is not fair. It isn't fair to the smokers who have decided to play by the rules. It isn't fair to anyone that stands up and makes a "non-cheating" call at a tournament.

I have no problem with players touching their markers when they take a shot. As far as the game goes, I don't think it matters at all. But my personal opinions have nothing to do with my responsibility to make the call. If we want the game to be taken seriously, we must have rules. Those rules must be enforced. Otherwise the sport is a joke.

We, the family of disc golfers have to make a decision. Do we want to be involved in a serious sport? If the answer is yes, then the rule must be enforced.

If the answer is no, then we should not play in serious tournaments. This includes not making calls to rules because we deem them unnecessary. I think the 2 meter rule is unnecessary. But I'm going to call it. Why? Because it's a rule! Somebody will be called on it by someone that thinks the sport will collapse without the rule. I can't let somone off because they aren't cheating!

We, as friends, need to take this thing seriously. Smoking at PDGA events will never be the same. The wheel is turning. The calls are going to be made. I am going to make the call. I have to. I can't let others be the only ones. It isn't fair.

The saddest thing about all of this, is it all could be so easily avoidable. Those of you that smoke at PDGA events should at least shoulder the responsibility of your choice. If you are called, the least you could do is say that you deserve whatever you get and apologize to the person that YOU forced to make the call.

Thanks Pat, I'll look into that. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

I'd like to add that for anyone who thinks I'm gonna back off of this or eventually shutup and go away, in the words of one of my heroes, "He don't know me too well, do he?"

This is important, or I wouldn't be on it so hard. This game is about to turn a corner where public awareness is concerned. With all the good work being done by people like DiscTV, ZT10, the PDGA and others, the eyes of the corporate world and Joe American alike are about to be turned toward us in a way we've never before seen. The face we present to those curious eyes will determine this sport's future, for good or ill. Think about that every time you're on the course.

I hope I don't lose any friends over my outspoken public stance on this issue, but it won't change my opinion or my proactive nature. To be honest, it might soften my tone, because no one likes to lose friends, but in the end it goes back to that face in the mirror thing.

Respect the game, respect other players and respect yourself.

[orotter]

STOP Already! (http://socalgal-1.net/wav/halbye.wav)

"I'd like to propose a new course, you can get information about our professsional organization at PDGA.com. (please, please don't let them go to the message board and get the impression that this is a major stoner sport)"

These discussions, yes I'm guilty of perpetuation, are not helping Disc Golf, as important as the issue may be. Please take it to private email and off the public forum whatever your personal beliefs.

Matt, sorry. I totally disagree with you and think these discussions are great for the game.

I'm sorry Matt. You are correct in your fear, but avoidance of this issue has done us more harm than good. Besides this reputation is already there. I've been trying to get a course put in in my town for two years now. We're pretty far removed from any metropolitan area and certainly the level of awareness of the sport here is limited. Every time I talk to City Hall about the Disc Golf course, they say, "Oh you mean dope smokin' golf?" They say it with a smile, but you know they're only half kidding.

First of all, this problem isn't as rampant among players as some might like to believe. There is a growing majority of people who don't smoke playing our game. They just don't want to talk about it for fear of being ostracized or for fear of what you mentioned.

Secondly, if it exists, the reputation is already prevalent and its a problem that we stick our heads in the sand over, doesn't that make us look worse to the outside world than if we become vocal and attempt to front it out and eradicate it from our game?

Your point is valid and its a dicey proposition at best, trying to decide which side of that line to err on. But, I believe that the ostrich way has been tried and has failed miserably. IMNSHO, public discussion will bring about more scrutiny and increased pressure on those who would continue these actions and we'd be better off for it in the long run.

If there's anyone else who agrees with that take (or disagrees, for that matter), I'd like to hear about it.

[orotter]

Your priveledge RW. I just wish Parks boards felt the same. Dag Nabbit! I did it again. What a @$#^*&%$&% vortex this topic is!

[neonnoodle]

Mark,

You mentioned that you called yourself on a footfault on a putt, that no one seconded it, and that you reputt anyway and took the 2 resulting extra strokes.

I do not believe that that is the correct application of the rules. Unless someone seconds a call, even a self-called one, no penalty can be applied.

At the last Seneca Soiree, a person in the top group shanked one off into the woods on hole 16 and immediately called himself on a foot fault. No one seconded his call, and he had to play the disc where it was. I did not see the throw as I was spotting further down the fairway.

Anyhoo, a second call is needed for rules requiring them. Foot faulting I'm pretty sure is one of them that does.

RULE: 803.03 STANCE

A. When the disc is released, a player must:
(1) Have at least one supporting point that is in contact with the playing surface on the line of play and within 30 centimeters directly behind the marker disc (except as specified in 803.03 E); and,
(2) have no supporting point contact with the marker disc or any object closer to the hole than the rear edge of the marker disc; and,
(3) have all of his or her supporting points in-bounds.

C. Any throw from within 10 meters or less, as measured from the rear of the marker disc to the base of the hole, is considered a putt. A follow-through after a putt that causes the thrower to make any supporting point contact closer to the hole than the rear edge of the mini marker disc constitutes a falling putt and is not allowed. The player must demonstrate full control of balance before advancing toward the hole.

F. A stance violation must be clearly called within three seconds after the infraction to be valid. The call may be made by any member of the group or an official. When the call is made by a member of the group, it must subsequently be confirmed by another member of the group. A player shall receive a warning for the first violation of a stance rule in the round. Subsequent violations of a stance rule in the same round shall incur a one-throw penalty.

G. Any throw that involves a validly called and seconded stance violation may not be used by the thrower. Re-throws must be taken from the original lie. Re-throws must be taken prior to subsequent play by others in the group.

H. The player may not retrieve the originally thrown disc prior to the re-throw, except in the case of a putt from within 10 meters. Where a disc is retrieved in violation of this rule, a one throw penalty shall be imposed without a warning.

Minor point, but one worth making.

Yeah Nick, I know all that now. Remember the never ending thread that this boneheaded mistake started earlier this year?

I wasn't trying to point out the merits of mine or my group's decision in this instance. I was making a point about rules integrity and having to live with one's own conscience. You got that, right?

BTW, thanks for the potential thread killing off topic novel. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[neonnoodle]

Dear Zealot,

My pleasure.

May I say that your online persona is hilariously different from you live person.

Good luck working this vital topic out. I can't wait to read it's resolution!

Playfully,
Nick Kight

Dear Nick,

No you may not, seeing as how you have no knowledge of "me live person."

Thanks for your well wishes, however incredibly sarcastic they may be. I'll keep you informed as to my progress.

Sanctimoniously,
Mark Atwood

AWWWW...LOOK!!!!


Nicky found a new friend to play with!!!!


You met the Martyr man??? When/where???

He obviously doenst recall the meeting.

[neonnoodle]

Oops! No I haven't had the pleasure. Their is a fellow of similar namage up this ways. My apologies for assuming familiarity.

Meaningfully,
Nick Kight

Sorry, Matt, but I disagree with you as well. As Mark A pointed out, the "dope smoking golf" reputation is already out there among the general public, and THAT'S what has to be combatted. Not confronting the problem and the perception openly simply perpetuates the perception (ask the American Catholic Church, the IOC, or the Int'l Skating Union). Taking the discussion "underground" simply perpetuates the perception that the PDGA doesn't care about its stoner reputation.

Will some potential sponsors be scared off by the discussion? Sure; but I would bet that some would be MORE open to sponsorship if they saw that the large majority of members don't imbibe (at least tournaments) and that the PDGA is seriously attempting to address the problem and the perception, rather than trying to hide it or pretending it doesn't exist.

Thanks Felix, those are excellent examples of what I'm talking about and what I'd like to see us avoid.

And like you, I feel the long run positives will greatly outweigh the short term discomfort.

I'm kinda surprised that we haven't heard from some of the old schoolers who think I'm being a sanctimonious putz. I mean, I have less than 3 years under my belt in this game, what the heck do I know, right? /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Right!

Well put, Meister. Care to elaborate? /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

The answer is smoking before the round, in your car away from the event if you must, and then refraining from it during the event. What you choose to do on your own time does not matter. So smoke em before you get there, take prior to arrival, and if someone wants to administer drug testing at PDGA events, watch our purses grow.....NOT.

Have respect for the rules, and for those that might "narc" and do not make it a topic. Take care of yourself in your privacy of your car. Keep it away from those that you do not know, and make life easier on all of us.

If you think that this is a joke, wait until you see some people get called on it. It will happen, you don't think so, watch the National Tour, you can bet your bottom dollar that the first pro that goes to light up on the event will be removed swiftly and promptly if for no other reason but to make a point.

Corporate America is coming, you asked for more $$, you now have more responsibilities, and the first is lawful actions in the parks.

[bruce_brakel]

Random thoughts from an old-timer:

I don't smoke. I would prefer that smokers would exercise more discretion. Nonetheless, it is not a violation of the rules of disc golf to smoke, and smokers are not cheaters. It is a violation of state and federal laws to possess certain smokables, and possessors generally are guilty of misdemeanors, unless they are in the import/wholesale or retail distribution chain.

The rule in question states:

A. A player may be disqualified by the director for meeting any of the necessary conditions of disqualification as set forth in the rules, or for any of the following:

(4) Activities which are in violation of the law or park regulation or disc golf course rule, including the illegal consumption of drugs or alcohol. Directors are granted the discretion to disqualify a player based on the severity of the offending conduct. An official warning of disqualification may be issued by a director where appropriate.

In essence, for the purpose of the tournament, the TD is empowered to act as prosecutor, judge and jury over any allegation of illegal conduct, from adultery through zebra poaching. That does not make zebra poaching cheating at a PDGA tournament, it is just illegal under state law.

Possession in this state is about as serious of an offense as drunk driving. It is less serious than the unlicensed carrying of a handgun in a car. As a TD I doubt that I would disqualify a player if it came to my attention that a player drove drunk on the lunch break. I certainly would not disqualify him for carrying a handgun in the car. I would be far more likely to disqualify a player for intentionally breaking a sapling.

I am not in law enforcement. I do not play or run tournaments for the purpose of enforcing laws relating to possession. I do not think law enforcement would be a fun job and I go to tournaments to increase the overall level of fun in my life. Its fine by me if Mark wants to enforce possession laws at the tournaments he goes to, and it would be fine by me if he were to play the MDGOs next season!

Old-timer is now checking out to attend the junior girls' league at Baycourt.

[woodpecker]

Where do we find these "DARN" Zebras ,I here they make a great rug......

Melted, I don't know if that's THE answer, but its certainly one answer. And you make some good points about responsibility and respect. And you're right, they are coming. I hope we're ready.

Bruce, I'm afraid you've been added to that list of folks who are missing the point, although not entirely. I'm not interested in enforcing any possession laws. Are you for real with that crap? I'm not a legislator, a cop, or a vigilante. If you can't make the distinction between zebra poaching (very funny, BTW) which isn't addressed in the RULES and illegal substances which are addressed in the RULES, then you need to read the RULES again. I just love how people can interpret the RULES in their own way to say that something is or isn't against the RULES.

Sheesh.

[gnduke]

They hide behind the elephants.

maybe we should target other type of sponsors, that altenative activities would not bother them. I wonder if bmx's and skateboarders feel that hampers there sport. Certain magazines with a large base of readers. is it that far fetched!

I personally would not like to be dictated by Pepsi or some corporate company that used underage workers in a foriegn country to make there product. Who will benifit, the major sponsors or joe disc golfer?

> I personally would not like to be dictated by Pepsi or some corporate company

Pepsi and other corporate sponsors aren't dictating to anyone. They simply have a policy that says, "If you want our money, here's what we expect." As an organization, it's up to you to decide whether or not you will accept their money on those terms. If you don't like the terms, you can say, "Sorry, we can't accept your money."

>Who will benifit, the major sponsors or joe disc golfer?

As to who will benefit, it's a symbiotic relationship: the sponsor gets exposure and good will, the PDGA and the sponsored event(s) get added cash, freebies for players packs, ctp prizes, etc.

I agree with Bruce & also think it's funny how people can interpret the RULES in their own way to say that something is or isn't against the RULES. (Works both ways)
I think it should say including the illegal comsumption of drugs or alcohol, and/or zebra poaching. Although there are areas where the consuption of drugs or alcohol (i.e. amstredam) are not illegal. Whereas zebra poaching, by definition, may not be legal anywhere.
From this one may summise that Zebra Poaching is against the rules everywhere, and drug and alcohol consumption is only against the rules in areas where their consumption is illegal.
/clipart/crazy.gif

I'd guess that 98% of sponsorship for our tournaments are gathered at the local level. Keeping a clean image will keep local businesses interested. Going the other route will attract 'pipe shops' and turn away the majority of businesses.

Unless 'High Times' is willing to provide enough sponsorship for all our tournaments, we will be at a net loss.

[orotter]

See how I cleverly warped this thread to talk about the impact on Disc Golf? /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif Seriously, Felix makes a good point, maybe sweeping the seeds under the rug isn't such a good idea. It just makes me cringe whenever I think about selling Disc Golf as a great family activity (which it is) with this lurking in the background.

So, Excuuuuuuuuuuuse Me (http://socalgal-1.net/wav/excuse.wav) for being a little leary about the nearly continuous, without resolution, discussion of the topic here on the message board. I need to go finish the news letter. I think I'll leave out the THC thought for the day.

Matt, you're excused (and thanks for all the drops today). I have to sell it to an already biased public and run up against the same thing that is making you cringe. I'm right there witcha my brutha.

And now, knowing full well that I may be inciting the inevitable "idiot" call from RW, here's this:

Those of you who are determined to beat me to death with this Zebra thing, let me break it down for you. Because of the word "including" in 804.05 A.(4), illegal consumption of drugs and alcohol are, by rule cheating. Its not a law enforcement issue, its a RULES issue. I don't give a rats [*****] how anyone but me and mine adhere to or fail to adhere to the law when they're not on the golf course. And, therefore, if its a RULES issue (which it clearly is), then violating it is cheating - 804.05 A.(3) Cheating: a willful attempt to circumvent the RULES of play. Seems simple enough.

Furthermore, 804.05 A.(4) also includes "Activities which are against the law..." Simply put, if I see any of you poaching Zebras, which is a clear violation of state and federal law (thus making it against the RULES and therefore, cheating), I will have your [*****] DQ'd. But please, at least exhibit the good sense to cheat in a way that could in some way benefit your golf game. If Zebra poaching was ever proven to in fact help one's disc golf game, God help the Zebra population.

Matchu,

I have been active in promoting and helping run skateboard contests and building skateparks. We have never had a problem getting sponsors. We have had sponsors from Pepsi and Coca Cola and they have always been happy to do it.

We built a skatepark in our area that was completly funded by donations by Pepsi,Coca Cola,YMBL,Beaumont Police Activities League(and built on their property)and many other businesses that i can't recall at this time.

So to answer your question: No it does not hamper skateboarding and other action sports, atleast not the efforts that I have been involved in.

I was actually intrigued by Matchu's idea of alternative sponsors. Not because it has anything to do with the rules discussion we're having, but because it piques my interest as someone interested in getting more corporate sponsorship.

Scott, I would be extremely interested to know what these same corporate sponsors who don't exhibit a "lifestyle" problem with X-sports, think about disc golf. Would they be just as open to being approached by us? Would they hold us to a higher standard?

I think you'd find out that they wouldn't exactly embrace us like they do X Games style activities. Its not a philosophical bias, more like a financial bias.

X sports have three major networks vying for their broadcast audience (ESPN/ABC-X Games, NBC-Gravity Games), they have a much larger retail market base which generates ten times (if not more) the revenue that DG manufacturers and retailers can expect in the foreseeable future, a direct link to the lucrative music industry's favorite demographic (males 18-34) and marketable superstars. As we all see with any major professional sport, the ability to put butz in seats and dollars in pockets has a tendency to wipe away any moral concerns and make warts disappear.

In the big time, its the dollar that drives the corporate bus, not moral judgment.

Until we reach the big time, we have to smile, shake hands, kiss babies and say and do all the right things to make ourselves a worthy candidate for these corporate handouts.

I've always heard the X sport's popularity comparison and the lament that we should be entitled to the same kind of corporate respect and involvement. Although I'd love that kind of popularity and acceptance, we have to realize that the formula for that in disc golf just simply doesn't exist. Yet.

[sleeper]

Mark, unless you are running the tournament, YOU can't HAVE somebodies *** disqualified. YOU can turn them in to the TD. YOU can report them to the PDGA. The TD is the one who has the discretion to DQ. Nowhere in the rules does it mandate disqualification.
Since you are professing to play by the letter of the rules, just wanted to make sure you were clear on this aspect. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Bobby, you're correct. I was just trying to add a little punch to my lame Zebra poaching humor. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

As for how it really works in practical application, believe me, I'm painfully aware of it.

[sleeper]

I think you should come to Lubbock to look for Zebra poachers. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Mark,

I think that you are absolutly right. Disc golf is not as big financially as action sports, therefor would get less of a response from some of the larger corporations. All the questionable activities that some of the action sports athletes are involved in is overlooked do to the money generated from those sports.

I do believe that disc golf can get those same sponsors, it might be less of a donation, but that's a start(example: Pepsi Pecan Park Open). I intend on putting forth the same,if not more, effort towards disc golf in my area as I did for skateboarding. I beleive that I can obtain those same sponsors and I will do whatever it takes to convince them that disc golf is the sport of the future. Hopefully real soon we will have our club started and plans are already there for a tournement and I will see what kind of response I get from the companies mentioned above.

Anyway my original intention was just to give Matchu an answer to his question. So, you guys can get back to poaching zebras now /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif .

[Pizza God]

I am going to step on a limb and say that I a against Zebra Poaching and will call anyone I see doing it.

[gnduke]

Me thinks that we are missing the comparison point.

Disc Golf in its current form relies on the good graces of the local parks departments to have places to put courses that we all play basically for free. The parks department's money and land are what we are after in our quest to appear civilized. The local residents are the ones with influence to get our beloved courses pulled. These are the people that we have to convince that DG is good clean fun and that their tax dollars are being well used in providing a place for DGers a place to play.

Corporate sponsorship probably doesn't mind what happens as long as they are not liable and do not get a black eye from supporting the activity (and they show a good return from their investment). The larger the return the less carefully they monitor activities.

The hearts we have to win are the ones that want the park lands for soccer and football fields, baseball diamonds and jogging trails. That is where one person forgetting decorum can negatively impact a whole community of conscientious players.

[Pizza God]

One point that I think everyone is overlooking is the "clean" player. How many of you guys know someone who quit playing tournament because of the "smoking". I know of several because I am the Texas Coordinator and because of some of the players I know. Anytime I see someone who does not play tournaments I always ask them why.

Disc golf is used in several chuch youth groups and is located in several Church retrites. Why, because disc golf is fun, easy and cheap. Now what happens when these church guys go out on the regular course and everyone they see is "smoking"

This is enough to make several of them never play again.

If we want more sponsors, we need to clean up our image, and get more people playing discs golf. You are not going to get some people if you alienate them.

[Pizza God]

I did talk with one of my sponsors today. He has seen the MJCO thread. He told me he fully suported my stance and am glad I took it. He will be sponsoring again next year. He also told me to come and talk to him if I need anything else.

[Pizza God]

VERY ture Mr. Duke.

You have to have a rule against illegalities. It's a simple fact. You have to enforce the rule because it's a rule. Idiots. It need not have anything to do with anything else.

thanks Scott.

Bobby, only when Tech loses on a bad call. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[ching_lizard]

Thanks RW...my morning is complete.

"The larger the return the less carefully they monitor activities."

As for you Gary, my fellow DG Rules Enforcement Dick (I like that one), methinks you have something against my verbiage. That's pretty much the same thing I said, only less eloquent. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

The fact that this formula is not in place for us right now is the reason why we have to appeal to the folks you referenced. Great minds think alike...even if they don't know it. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[gnduke]

Just reinforcing, the conversation was going to the they do it and don't have problems why can't we side.
Just wanted to bring up what always makes trying to get new courses in more fun. It's a problems I have been running uphill against for a few years now.

I know what you mean. That quote I referenced in an earlier post did actually come from the Director of Leisure Services in my town. I've heard it more times from other City Hall members, though. It was these experiences that helped me to develop the hard on I have for eliminating this rep from our game.

[woodpecker]

Theres too many Zebras,Legalize it and We'll all have a beautiful rug.....

Or, you could call Canada and ask your favorite smoke maker/developer to sponsor your event.
LMAO

While this didn't start out as a warning to the PDGA members to avoid running off sponsors, its a worthwhile concern. And even though I'm not trying just to solve the problem of how we appear to potential municipalities that are considering putting courses in the ground, its something we all should think about.

What the thrust of this is about for me, at least, is heightening the respect for the rules that we all must abide by in order to play in PDGA events. Too many people take this rule lightly, and it needs to stop. You do that, and some of these other related problems go away or become moot.

I've been asked, "What do you hope to accomplish by just airing this out on the board? Do you think everyone you're trying to reach reads this thing?"

Okay, here's the deal. Not everyone who plays this game reads this board. It may not even be representative of a major slice of the DG demographic. However, DG'ers from all over the country do read the board. All it takes is for one person (although more would be nice) from each geographic stronghold of the sport to get on board and step up to the plate on this issue. Just one person from each region with the testicles to take the heat they'll undoubtedly get for openly saying and doing the right thing will make more of a difference from a grass roots level on out, than anything I could type here. It takes nuts and a good dose of inner character to voluntarily involve oneself in what they know will be an uncomfortable position, even if they also know its the right thing to do. That's just human nature.

But if we, the players take this responsibility upon ourselves, we won't need our organization to impose stricter rules. We won't need to worry about our image. We won't need to read threads like this in a public forum or listen to idiots like me rant about it.

Folks in the PDGA have assured me that they plan on stepping up and dealing with this issue seriously. If they decide to actually use the teeth that they brandish in print, a consistent and predictable set of severe consequences is all it will take. Once the severe nature of the punishment for opting to disregard this rule is consistently handed out to a few in each region, I'm betting this problem will begin to fade. Right now, I'm not so sure if a lot of folks actually think that anything will happen to them if they choose to disregard 804.05 A(4). Show them that they're mistaken with some degree of consistency, and others will get the message and probably decide not to risk making the same mistake. Unless the folks who currently choose to ignore this rule are made to believe that there will be swift and certain consequences, why would they change the way the do things? Why should they? Would you?

As an important side note, I hope nobody thinks I'm implying that there aren't already folks stepping up as I've mentioned. There are. More and more of them all the time. I do not mean to make light of the folks who are doing the right thing, just trying to help point out the need for more individuals to nut up. To those of you already taking responsibility, taking the heat and doing the right thing, This Ziegenbock's For You. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[Pizza God]

Sure is hot in Texas right now/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

This may be a bit extreme, but what if the the pdga stop sanctioning tournaments where these problems are notified to the TD and nothing is done about it. You could instead revoke the partiuclar TD from running any more events for a period of time.
Once it starts hurting these functions this way is when you will see a change in these types of problems.
JM2C

[ching_lizard]

MM: But who does that punish? Is it truly the TDs fault? (maybe sometimes...) But doesn't it also punish the players that want to play in perhaps the only sanctioned tournament in their neck of the woods? I think that the players themselves have got to be held accountable for their actions - yes, and even TDs too if they choose to ignore it when it's brought to their attention.

You bring up a good point about (their neck of the woods). so, what do you do to a group where 1 or 2 people want to smoke and the other (who does not smoke) doesn't care if they do or don't?
I'd rather them not smoke.

[gnduke]

Remind them of the rule, and state that you would rather they not smoke. Inform them that if they insist, the rules require that you inform the TD of the activity. Their right to do what they want with their own lives does not give them the right to force you to make the difficult decision of having to inform the TD. Put the decision where it belongs. The rules require that you report violations, and if they persist, they are making the decision for you.

The same should also go for drinking in parks where drinking is prohibitted.

[jconnell]

Mark,

I agree with you wholeheartedly on this one. >>All it takes is for one person (although more would be nice) from each geographic stronghold of the sport to get on board and step up to the plate on this issue.

We had this discussion in our region on our club discussion page back at the beginning of the year. It began with one person expressing concern after his 11 year old son got randomly paired at a big doubles event with someone who imbibed (smoke and drink) a bit too much over the course of the day.

The reaction exploded into one side saying "relax, it wasn't a PDGA event" and "just avoid being near it" and the other side wanting to impose stiff club rules outlawing alcohol along with the illegal stuff.

Nothing materialized on the rule front, but it was decided that there would be more vigilance, more enforcing the PDGA rule on the matter (PDGA event or not...we use all the other PDGA rules at non-PDGAs, so it made sense), and clearly stating the policy for every event (especially whether alcohol was allowed...most public parks here don't allow it). It's been the cleanest, quietest year on that front that I've seen in my short time playing the game (about 5 years). All it took was making people aware that it's not going to be acceptable to endanger events by breaking rules.

So while nothing concrete materialized as a result of the debate/discussion, a new awareness and a more solid "backbone" grew because of it. People realized they weren't alone in trying to enforce rules (all the way down to foot faults) and would have support. People realized that there was a time and a place for certain things, and became more respectful to one another (on both sides of the coin).

It can be done everywhere. Everything necessary is there to better the situation, it just needs to be used.

--Josh

does anyone remember the birdie putter with the leaves for the tail feather? I believe that was the first disc I saw. It was in a friends car, I knew what the leaves where, and what the disc was for and told him to take me to where he plays disc golf... and here I am!

[bruce_brakel]

Could someone quote me what rule GnDuke is referring to:

"Inform them that if they insist, the rules require that you inform the TD of the activity."

Don't bother looking. There is no such rule.

Perhaps we ought to have a rule making any 804.05 violation also a courtesy violation. But there is no rule stating that. Some are and some aren't.

So long as we have a rule that says only that a TD may [not "shall," but "may"] warn or disqualify a player for illegal activity, there is no rule for the group to enforce and there is no rule that the TD must enforce.

Yes, Pizza, it certainly is looking like a warm Fall in Texas. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Michael, we're still in baby step mode here. I'd like to see serious action taken when its warranted, but to punish TDs right now, when they're not even certain that they have the moral support of their own organization, would be a bit extreme. When the PDGA steps up (which I believe they will, very soon) and instills the confidence in their TD's that they have the organization's full support in making DQ calls and back up the TD's confidence by imposing the further sanctions that as of now are only words on paper, then I think you can hold TD's accountable. As it stands right now, a TD making a call like this must feel like a guy alone in a canyon of his own echoes, populated only by hungry, TD eating wolves. When was the last time the PDGA actually suspended anyone for violating this particular rule? How many DQ's are issued throughout a season across the country in all PDGA events combined?

I guarantee you, that if the answers to those two questions reflected the numbers that they should, this problem would begin to fade into our game's history, instead of being a black eye on our present.

Matchu, I have one of those Birdies. In fact, the first time I ever saw a golf disc it was being used for something else, upside down, if you get my meaning. I'm not embarrassed by our game's alternative origin in the least and, once again, I'm not judging anyone's choice of recreational activities. One simple fact of life, however, is that you grow or you die. Its up to the PDGA and its membership to accept that and make their choice.

Bruce, sadly, what you say is correct. I don't think it should be and the PDGA needs to accept responsibility for giving players and TD's alike the verbiage they need to feel like they have organizational support. I personally think its unfair for our organization to put all the burden of solving this problem on individuals who are willing to put their own necks on the line, with vague "mays," "coulds" and "shoulds." I'm calling their testicles into question too, not just the player's and TD's.

You know what really amazes me about this whole thing? Silent leaders.

We all know that some of the best and brightest players, organizers, manufacturers, administrators and pioneers of this game read this board. Many post and many don't, but we know they read. Logically, we can assume they're reading every word on this thread with a large degree of scrutiny.

So, where are they? Are they afraid we won't buy discs from them anymore? Play in their tourneys? Attend their minis? Vote for them? Just don't want to get their hands dirtied by this discussion?

There are a lot of folks in that group that we listen to very attentively. Their opinions hold a lot of water with most of us. One word from them is often all it takes for us to try a new throw, change our putting style, attend an event we otherwise wouldn't or buy a new disc.

Why then are they absent from these discussions? Is it simply easier to let folks like me and others be cannon fodder in this fight until the scales are tipped toward a more comfortable direction?

I'm not trying to be a smart ***, and this is not a troll. Its a legitimate concern. I think this is a unique opportunity for some of these folks to re-up on their dues to carry the "leader" moniker than many of them have worn so well for so long.

[gnduke]

Bruce,

Since there is not warning or penalty specified by 804.05, there is no requirement to inform the TD. If there were at least a warning, it would have to be reported on the scorecard (804.03c). As it stands, the only person able to make a ruling on the issue is the TD, thereby requiring that the TD be informed so that a ruling can be made.

In other words, If the only person that can decide whether a penalty is to be enforced is the TD, the TD must be informed to determine if the action warrants a penalty. This seems to me to be a requirement.

From another point of view, anything less would be cheating. Anything that one card is allowed to get away with (a little fudge on the OB) that another card is not allowed to get away with is cheating. The only assumption that anyone can make is ALL rules will be strictly adhered to (on at least one card) so that the rules must be strictly adhered to on all cards, or the offending players and the other players on the same card are in essence cheating.

It would be nice if the rules actually came out and stated that ALL rules violations be noted on the score card, but only the ones that the penalty is already known for are required.

[gnduke]

Not an attack, just a rebuttal.

Amazingly, Gary, nobody seems to be attacking anybody on this thread. An impressive display of decorum for such a hot topic. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[justice]

The very first paragraph of rule 801.01A clearly states:

"Players should watch the other members of their group throw in order to aid in locating errant throws AND TO ENSURE COMPLIANCE WITH THE RULES."

801.01C goes on to say:

"Refusal to perform an action expected by the rules, such as assisting in the search for a lost disc, moving discs or equipment, or keeping score properly, etc., is a courtesy violation."

Because it is against the rules to consume illegal drugs and alcohol(when the park prohibits it), it seems to me if a player decides not to ensure compliance of the rules(however this must be done, whether within the group, by an official, or by notifying the TD), they are in violation of courtesy rule 801.01C. Am I wrong?

I don't see what the problem is. It is your obligation to report it. I know that it isn't YOUR decision to penalize a player because of it, but as justice pointed out you, as a player, are expected to "ensure compliance with the rules". How is not reporting a violation of 804.05 A.4 not any worse than letting someone in your group change their lie without penalty? Both are rules violations and should be treated as such.

I know I haven't been as vigilant in enforcing 804.05 A.4 as I probably should be, but that will change. I don't care what these people do in the privacy of their own home, but they are putting MY pastime at risk for their own personal gratification. And I will not sit idly by and watch courses get ripped out of our parks, because some people couldn't display restraint in partaking in an ILLEGAL activity.

BTW: Zebra pouching does NOT help your game. Trust me.....I tried it. /msgboard/images/clipart/sad.gif

[Pizza God]

Justice, I am glad you posted that. You are truely one of the few players who have even read the rules book. If I were not also running for Texas Coordinator, I would vote for you, just because of the things you have done so far in the last 2 months. I want to thank you for the clairifications you have posted. Also, thanks for being the bar tender in Stevenville/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Jason, thanks for making that tough choice.

Back this spring, I sent and email out to a bunch of mover and shakers in Disc Golf via the DGLinksClub. I ask other TD and players to take a stand and say they will not put up with this rule violation. I only got a few responses. But I see a trend growing. As more players and TD's stand up and say NO, more people will start to jump on the bandwagon. I even know several "smokers" who are already on that bandwagon.

I have been very vocal on this subject for way over a year now. I am that player in Texas that stood up first. I am the first player who turned players in at tournament (that I know of) Yes I have gotten some flack over it. I had players who don't want to play with me anymore (as if they ever did)

Craig L. has stood up and stated the same thing. He now has turned players in.

Chris Himming has stood up and stated the same thing. He will DQ you even at his non PDGA events.

Terry Toolen has stated that the VPO will be a clean air tournament. I want to come out Sunday and make sure it is.

Mark has said he will make the Call

Gary has said he will make the Call

At least the Adv masters will be a clean division/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Pizza, I know you've been the one to be vocal for some time now and thanks. Now, though, you've got company.

BTW, I think that was a PJ post, now that Mitch is using his own username.

I'm not looking forward to catching the same heat that you and CL have, nor am I gonna be anxious to make that call. It will be something I don't relish in the least. Make no mistake, however, I will do it, regardless of the crap I'll undoubtedly have to put up with.

In fact, I already have. When I'm at liberty to discuss it here, I'll do just that. No hiding for me.

And everybody knows that all OMB's follow the rules. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[justice]

PG,
Thank you for the kind words, but I think you have me confused with my husband, Mitch Justice. Understandably so since, at one time, we both posted under "justice" with our names or initials at the end, but he has his own username now,"Mitch Justice". I'll make sure he gets(or reads) your message.

I'm assuming, since you're agreeing with me, that my interpretation of the rules is correct? (as far as my previous post goes).

PG, PJ, GD, JH, et al., while I agree with your stance and feel that it would be the same way that someone interested in the spirit of the rules would be inclined to feel, I'm afraid that the vagaries of the rules as they are currently written leave too much room to say that its an undisputable point.

I'd actually like to be wrong about that one, but I don't think I am. If a situation ever came up that someone was penalized for not turning someone in who was in violation of that particular rule, I'm afraid that an attorney would tear that to shreds. Unfortunately, we have to take our rules to that kind of worst case scenario to ensure their validity. I was made personally aware of that recently.

The spirit of the rules is for those who don't break them. What's actually in print and legal is for those who'd try to get out of doing something wrong.

[Pizza God]

my bad, I just saw Justis and assumed wrong. You know what AssUme does.

[bruce_brakel]

Mark, I would encourage you to be vocal since you have some good reasons for being vocal. I'm not expecting a lot of leadership from the PDGA board on this, but I'm generally pessimistic about many things. The PDGA has been refreshingly surprising in the last year or so.

Some members of the Board have participated in disc golf heritage activities in the past when the occasion arose. Some have told me that they do not, ever, anymore. In my neck of the woods, abstainers seem to be out-numbered 10-1. Some of the abstainers on the Board may be sensitized to this demographic. The current leadership seems to be focussing on policies which enlarge the big tent of PDGA members, which is probably a good thing, and probably won't tackle this issue until it is clearly a growth related issue.

I think the Board has taken the position in the past that the rules of disc golf do not need to forbid anything that is already forbidden by law. That position is reflected by 804.05 which does not make it a violation of the rules for a player to engage in illegal conduct, but merely grants a TD discretion to warn or disqualify a player for engaging in illegal conduct. Thus, the player is not being warned or disqualified for a PDGA rules infraction but for a violation of a law or park ordinance.

GnDuke, no offense taken, and thank you for your civility.

Yes, Bruce, you are absolutely, 100% correct...

...you are a pessimist. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Thanks for your support and words of encouragment. I do believe that some of the things that are right around the corner coming from the current admistration of the PDGA regarding this problem may surprise you. I fully expect these issues to be directly confronted by the PDGA, and sooner rather than later. Just because someone has participated in disc golf heritage activities in the past or the present does not preclude them from seeing the sense of this effort.

As for anyone who doesn't think this problem is a "growth issue" for our sport, well they just don't have the ability to see the big picture. In the eyes of the non-dg real world, it is a huge growth stumbling block.

The episode at the recent Texas states, which was the subject of a complaint to Guru and the PDGA, is being actively investigated. I have spoken to a number of the folks involved, including the TD and one of the officials. My partial findings have been discussed with PDGA commish Pat Govang. He is going to discuss the situation further with Disciplinary committee members Todd branch and Carlton Howard and shortly thereafter, penalties, if deemed warranted , will be announced.
The issues discussed in this thread are a major concern to the PDGA and its disciplinary committee The rules are clear, illegal is illegal. Illegal activities during PDGA events are not allowed. Looking the other way or making excuses for this kind of conduct can't and won't
continue.

Bill Newman #1603 PDGA Disc. Comm.

There it is.

[justice]

Mark and Bruce,
Thank you. After carefull review of rules (again!), I see what you mean(the legalities behind the words), but the logistics of it all seems a bit wacked!(to sum it up)

This thread is great. I have been DGing for 4 years now. I am a college student. I don't drink or use drugs. I play disc golf. The previous statments are usually incompatible.
I would like to see less smoking on the course because, as has been stated, it gives an image to DG that is not neccesarily representative of the whole. As for me, I don't smoke, but I do ask that people in my group don't either. Keep up the good work mark. I think you're raising a valid issue and setting a good example.

Bill, thank you very much for all your efforts on this matter and for the personal time you give to the PDGA as Disciplinary Committee chair.

To all those folks who lament the PDGA's lack of direct involvement (a list which occasionally includes, but is certainly not limited to, me), your response counts for a lot.

Best line of the day on the 804.05 thread:
RW: "There it is."
Best use of hip verbiage of the day on the 804.05 thread:
PJ: "...it all seems a bit whacked."
Best validation of the day on the 804.05 thread:
Erik Wilson: Everything he said.

/clipart/smile.gif

Thanks Erik. I'll print that post out and tack it to the wall of my office (read: dining room held hostage). Everytime I catch crap from someone about sticking my nose where it doesn't belong, when I wonder if its worth all the bs, or if I doubt whether or not I'm making a difference, I'll read what you wrote.

Using Mark and Bruce in the same sentence, PJ, could inadvertently take things in a dark direction.

No offense to Brakel, but those two names used together are a message board abomination. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[rhett]

2003 Draft Schedule Observation:

There is a TD with the email address of "thcdiscgolf@-----.com" running an A-Tier named the "High Country Challenge". Is this the right thread to point that out? I wonder how many 420 foot holes will be on the course. An A-tier, no less?

I'm thinking this isn't a tourney that I or Bryan James should bother traveling to. Or should we...

[justice]

[/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif]

Maybe we should all show up as a contingent, Rhett. You know, just to help support an A-tier. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Not that it matters, but is that on a private or public course?

[Pizza God]

You make me laugh/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[Pizza God]

Bill, thanks for taking this seriously. Knowing what happend at States I am interested at what happens.

You will be reviewing another email from me in the next week.

Hopefully, I will not have to write anymore because the FEW players who still don't follow the rules are getting the idea that a tournament is not the time or place.

You know Bryan, I hope you're right. I'd rather see folks get on board than get in trouble. The fewer controversies this inevitably necessary change brings about, the better, IMO.

And, it would seem, now that the stance of the PDGA is rather open and straightforward, on board is gonna be a pretty smart place to be.

I never want this issue to become the preeminent focus of anyone's efforts in DG. There are so many other beneficial ways to expend all this energy.

Don't get me wrong, I know its gonna take a couple of moments of drama to get the point across and affect any lasting change, but the sooner that we as players take the responsibility for making this issue moot, the sooner we can move forward to take advantage of all the other exciting things that are happening right now for the game.

[Pizza God]

Amen.....

[27dogs]

i guess i won't be able to shoot up in tourny any more.

You mean shoot up or shoot over? /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[27dogs]

i have a good example of people not getting it,myself included.hole 3 at porter during mr.jims we were backed up.my card had just tee'd.as i took off towards the basket someone i knew waiting to tee was sitting to the left of the tee box.he was sitting facing the basket,the asst.t.d. was to his right,apt.complex to his left.he chose to block out the t.d. he had a towel in his right hand over his right shoulder and right side of his head,a bowl in his left hand to his mouth lighting it with his right hand.my point is every body could see, including the apt.complex,except for dan the asst. t.d.all i said to him was you better put that up before you get dqd.i would of had more respect for him if he would of blocked out the public not the t.d.in hind sight with every thing i've read i guess i should have turned him in and lost a friend but hopefully helped the sport.

Say it ain't so Frank, not an OMB breaking the rules. Dangit!

Yeah, I've seen the old "towel on the head" trick so many times that if anyone ever had a towel on their head for a legitimate reason, I'd be shocked.

I'm sorry that your "friend" (and probably mine too in that division) felt that it was okay to put you and others in that position of having to make an uncomfortable decision.

You're not the only person that has opted not to turn someone in, so don't sweat that. At least you had the balls to say something to the guy. Where we are right now with this issue, that's still a vast improvement over the age old head turn. Thanks for that. If all these others saw it, don't you think it was unfair that you had to be the only guy willing to say something?

I wonder what you'll do if faced with that same situation again? I don't know about your friend, but if I were him with the winds of change blowing as they are right now, I don't think I'd want to find out.

[27dogs]

you do know him and yes it was omb. the next tourny that he's in i will warn him that i will have to do what i have to do.luckily he only weighs a buck twenty at most.i thought i told you about it the day it happened.e-mail me and i'll refresh your memory.

[Pizza God]

It would be only fair Frank that you tell him to not put you in that position again. I can't belive that things like that happend at MY tournament. If you had told me that you witnessed him "smoking", I would have DQ'd him and asked that he be suspended from the PGDA for a little while. This is the third time I have heard about something after the fact about the Carrollton Open. At least I got more players that said it was the cleanest tournament they had ever been to.

Well Bryan, I made it through the whole tournament, and never saw or smelled anything.

SOME people, respect the rules, at least......

I think is was a clean tourney, Bryan, relatively speaking. What you need to remember, even though you're upset about hearing something after the fact, is that at least you're hearing it. Much like the purpose of this, at times uncomfortable thread, is that talking about it is better than not talking about it.

Nobody really wants to be in the position that Frank was put in, believe me, I know. But at least he's shared his experience with us, and probably won't let someone get away with that the next time.

BTW, I posted on 10-18, 9:17 am, that I was amazed at our silent leaders. Well, I'm not the brightest bulb on the marquee, sometimes. Many of the types of folks I referenced in that long winded post were kinda busy this past week/weekend with a little event in Rock Hill. Those of you returning home, I'd invite you to read that post and this thread and participate for the resons I've previously mentioned.

[orotter]

Mark,

I read that post (no I am not claiming to be a leader, silent or otherwise) and I lean toward your theory of not wanting to dirty themselves in this type of discussion. It took me over a year on the message board before I had the guts to contribute anything to this type of thread and I tried unsuccessfully to kill this one. I'm coming around though in spite of all my misgivings. If you shine a bright light on something, it's easier to tell what it is.

Nicely said, Matt, and thank you for your contributions.

BTW, that was not as much a theory as it was a guess. There could be many valid reasons for someone not wanting to involve themselves in these discussions. I simply feel that its so important, that the upside overshadows most of them.

(Sorry for the above uncharacteristic spelling mistakes. It was P.C. a.m., "Pre-Coffee")

The only way it will stop is to enforce it. You toke, you're out. End of discussion, buddy or not, TD, anyone! Friggen jaggoffs that dont get this are just as dumb as a box o rocs. Go fer a drive and toke all ya want, then come back with twinkies on yer mind and sink the putts that I cant because I feel preasure cause I aint smokin. (but am always thinkin of twinkies)

[rhett]

tree-hugging twinkie NoCaller...

Aren't we kind of pussyfooting around the problem at the moment? The only way we will ever get rid of this problem is to attack it at the beginning. The casual, and often times, league rounds.

Not being able to show restraint during a PDGA event is bad enough but, doing it in full view of the neighborhood during a normal day is just plain stupidity rearing it's ugly head.

It's the casual players that give the sport a bad reputation. Their the ones that get the courses yanked. Not the 2 PDGA events per year that are held on that course.

Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a dang thing we can do about these people. After a while, casual players become active members and don't see what the big deal is. They have the attitude, "I did it for 2 years before and now your telling me I can't? Try and stop me." All we can do is have a reactionary attitude about it, because we don't have any authority to enforce these rules outside of the events. Leagues on the other hand can and SHOULD enforce the rules of the PDGA. When they don't, the sport and the club suffers.

I guess it's just hard for a person who doesn't imbibe to understand why people can't restrain themselves.


Man, I'm DEFINATELY not making any friends now! :P

Oh well!

[rhett]

Jason, now you're talking about the difference between a crack-pipe at the neighborhood black-top and an NBA player lighting up during an official NBA game. You don't ever see the latter regardless of what the player does at home. The NBA has no control over the former.

I think it is a worthwhile goal on the local scene to enforce PDGA rules at leagues, but then you still have the pure-casual players doing their thang. Let's keep the current momentum of moving towards clean PDGA events, where we have the jurisdiction to do something. After that's all taken care of we can consider, as an organization, leagues.

[neonnoodle]

"Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a dang thing we can do about these people."

But there is. Confront them. Tell them that you don't care whether they kill their brain cells or get cancer, but if they get the course pulled or give disc golfers a bad name in the neighborhood, that you will take it personally, and ______ (Fill in the Blank).

People that don't say anything are just as much a part of the problem as those that actually do the physical damage.

Get Up! Stand Up! Don't Give Up the FIGHT! /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

Be like darling Nicki and "Walk Tall & Carry A Big Stick".

Beat the hell out of people that have right to choose what they want to do in their own time. That theory is sweet Nicki but you will NEVER get it to work. I wish it would but step down off yer pedastal and come to grips with reality.

"Reality" is preaching against herb use, by the bizarre technique of quoting Marley and Tosh.

Nick and the Great Dark One, this conversation is too important to drag down into the muck of our little tiffs, which no doubt there's plenty of room for elsewhere on the board.

Actually, there's a lot of merit in what Nick says. People who turn their heads are almost as big a problem as those who'd do it in the first place. And Dud, while I agree with you that this approach is a little to passive to quench your thirst for action and resolution, its still a dam fine place to start.

Remember people, we're taking baby steps here, but at least they're steps in the right direction. That might help you a little too, Jason. I agree that casual players are a bigger problem than tournament players on an individual basis, but when one tournament player is seen doing this, its usually on a day when the park is full of golfers. Anyone seeing it could assume that we're all doing it. Let's work on what we might be able to control first and let the prevailing atmosophere of turning tourneys into an "uncool" place to do that take root in the sport as a whole.

Not pussyfooting-baby steps in the right direction.

[klemrock]

Boy this is a hard topic for me to address; I'm a TD, PDGA Official, local club prez, AND one who believes special brownies do help my putting. :-) However, after discussing this with dozens of hardcore and casual players (some PDGA members, some not), the majority vote so far is to enforce these specific rules.

This surprizes the heck outta me, especially since most of the dgers I know are party-folk.

However, this gives me renewed hope about the future of our sport - and it makes it easier for me to stop straddling the fence. If we are to receive this type of commitment and forward-thinking from more players, dg will meanstream more easily. Disc golf will not be hampered by peripheral issues like these. Sponsors will come around. More players will appear. Hooray for all those folks who are willing to put the putt before the pipe!
BTW - this is the BEST PDGA thread ever.....

I agree with your analogy, but only partially Rhett. It's not like the city is going to go out of their way to rip out a basketball court. Mainly because they know it is a mainstream sport and crack pipes be damned, they don't want the backlash from the community. Also, they realize that removing the court isn't going to really cut down the drug use in the area.

Discgolf, unfortunately, is not the same dog. If they see an over abundance of drug users or get enough complaints about drug use they will, without hesitation, rip out a course. Most casual players would never go back to that park once that was done, so they would have succeeded in doing what they wanted. Removing the drug element from the park.

These courses are in the parks by the good graces of the park board. It doesn't matter who raised the money or did the work. Their first consideration is to the general public that will be using that park. If they see that discgolfer's are discouraging use of the park by introducing an element that they (the parks dept) don't want, they will remove the course.

It just frustrates me to see how inconsiderate some people can be at times. Whether it's talking during a tee shot or lighting up right out in the open.

I think I will start carrying a trench shovel with me so every time I see someone spark one, I can hand them the shovel and say "Why don't you get a start on taking the course out for the parks dept. You've already given them a reason."

Dang, no trench shovel. Oh well. It was a thought.

Maybe I should have been a cop. ;)

LOL

[rhett]

Yer preaching to the choir.

I still say that PDGA Events *all* need to be clean before we move to a bigger circle.

[bruce_brakel]

I'm glad to see that there is not a lot of cross-participation between the neo-temperance group on this thread and the participants in that illegal-in-almost-every-state gambling pool on the thread a couple threads down from here.

Did any of the guys participating in the pool also play the tournament? That would be outrageous in any sport where most of the players were not addled by excessive 804.05(A)ctivities.

Slow down Martyr, I said I wish it would work but the vision just aint gonna get it. You are correct, this is a HUGE issue and one of the toughest to try to deal/get rid of, but being a dick to stoners will get you nowhere. I just had to do my job and point that out in my usual fashion.

Get the big boys to play along and the little boys will do what the big boys are doing. Have ya'll learned nothing from childhood? Dont make me start quoting Mr. Rogers!/msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

great point bruce!

if you want to quote mr rogers. see my post/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif and then repeat there is your quotes

[gnduke]

One other note on the parks dept front.
Having a DG course in isolated park land is usually a deterent to other more serious illicit activities.

DG courses and the traffic they generate tend to encourage buyers/sellers of harder substances to find other locales to transact business. In these area the mere presence of players is a good thing.

However, in the parks that are well used and highly visible to the neighbors that we have to make an effort to be on our best behavior and demonstrate that a DG course next door is a good thing.

another great point! our busiest course has very happy neighboors, because they are not living in fear, atleast when 30-or so people are playing in their back yard.

Jim, nice to hear from you on this. I know you to be a pretty good guy and someone who has the sport's interests first from our World's Biggest conversations. I truly understand where you're coming from, believe me. I'm glad to hear that you were surprised by the reaction you got. Not that you were surprised, but that you got that reaction. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Dud, I understood, I was just trying to head off the thread killing battle between you and Nicki. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif I think you're right (and that's not easy to say) about the big boys example being easy to follow for the rest of the player base. That's why making sure that tourney players uphold their end of the bargain first is the biggest priority.

Rhett, I didn't know you were a choirboy? /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

804.05 A (4) refers to all activities which are illegal, or in violation of park or course rule.

I recently ran a tournament, and didn't DQ myself for wading in the water to retrieve my favorite Roc. I also didn't DQ myself for drinking a beer out of a plastic cup at lunch. I guess I'm part of the problem.

[rhett]

Drinking a beer at a park that doesn't allow alcohol when you are the TD really is part of the problem in that it makes the PDGA rules look inconsequential to the average player.

An issue I'm starting to worry more about is the lack-of-bathrooms problem. Urinating in public is against the law in most places, but when I'm hopped up on cold medicine and drinking lots of (non-alcoholic) fluids at a course with one bathroom I might break the law five or six times in a round. This is the type of issue that will become a bigger and bigger problem as we start to get the additional media coverage we're striving for!

Next time I see Jim he will automatically be DQed!
Ya rummie!

I could see Rhett as a choir boy...ohh, I just got a chill/msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

Yes Martyr that is priority one! I know its not easy telling me I am right but I am never told I am wrong, like, who would bother with arguing with me about me being wrong? Shadow boxing would be more fun./msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

And more productive.

AP, will these discussions perhaps lead you not to drink during the next tourney where alcohol is against park regulations? Plastic cup or not? I'd like to know.

Listen, nobody loves a cold adult beverage during a round of golf more than me (except maybe Seewhere), but when its against park rules, and therefore a rules violation, I don't drink on the course. And believe me, the way I play, I need a drink on a regular basis! If you're drinking in a plastic cup after telling players at your player's meeting that drinking isn't allowed in the park, then what kind of impact does that have on your credibility as the TD in the minds of your players? You know the answer to that question.

What about the cigarette smokers that were breaking not only tourney rules but State and Federal laws by smoking on the course at Sipapu? I mean smoking cigarettes is something that alot of people do and its not illegal. The enforcement of this rule (all aspects of it) is both the most difficult uphill battle and and one of the most important ones our game faces.

/clipart/happy.gif/clipart/happy.gif/clipart/happy.gif {>[]--( "meister"

Anyone Smoking cigs., On my card,Will be asked to stop.! Cause I HATE THE SMELL!!! Ohyea!, That'l go over big! CLEAN AIR RULES, For All. And Officer Attwood!, Lighten up. Looks like you need to spend a little more time on your Game, and a little less time; Spewing Shiste! "meister" /clipart/proud.gif

[rhett]

We had the same cigarette issue at the Sunrise Showdown this year. (Course on a mom-n-pop ski resort on Federal Land.) The fine was reportedly $5000 and the players were reminded a number of times that Forest Rangers were cruising around. Still, no reports of cigarettes or DQs even though people were smoking on the course.

Here's a question: do we focus on the beer-n-pot first because we have "heritage issues" and a pre-judged image to the public, and then work on everything else? Or do we just try to smack-down on everything at once and see if that's even possible?

I wonder how a "Highwayman" will look with shorts? You know, for the next time I need the DayQuil. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

And before we get too far off the path here, I know that illegal consumption of alcohol, public urination and even smoking cigs where its not allowed are problems and against 804.05 A. In the wrong circumstances, each of those could get a course pulled or cause trouble for us.

At the risk of being called a hypocrite (I'm sure it won't be the last time), what I'd really like to see us do is to continue to take small bites out of what the public is going to percieve as the bigger problem. The use of illegal drugs on the course during our events IS something we can get a handle on. I learned a long time ago that when you have a big problem or a whole bunch of them, you attack a solution for one at a time and you prioritize those efforts.

I hope that makes sense.

Sorry Rhett, I didn't see your post first, but I'll let mine stand as my answer to your question.

Rhett is scrambling to see how I did at Carrollton. 13up. Suckage! I know. But I beat Sgt. Attwood! "over and out" I'm 10-8. "meister"

Steve, I was talking about cigs where they're illegal and dangerous in a high risk fire zone.

I smoke cigs, so I empathize. I do other things too, but not when they're against the rules. "Officer Atwood" (just one T so its easier for me to spell) is a bit unfair, but I've been expecting it. I'm sure some folks will call me alot worse.

BTW Meister, you're right, you did beat me. You were third to last in your division and I could only muster second to last in mine. Congrats. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Maybe, just maybe when Nevada makes it legall to carry up to three ounces of herb then every one will want to play there! It is so funny to read all of this enforcing the regulation comics. The energy would be better served in trying to change the laws to make non-violent activities legal. Working at a job that is geared to enforcing regulations there is always the danger of the pendulum swinging too far in one direction and that can hurt the sport if that happens. Rather than trying to "police" each other why not find other means to communicate the need of obeying the rules. I think that if you witness a person speeding on their way to the tournament they should be DQ'd for breaking the law in connection with participating in the tournament. By proxy. 804.05 A (5)

What did you play? Sign Par!! /clipart/happy.gif

RS, now you're just being silly. If you'd have gone back and read the whole thread, you'd have seen that I'm all for making certain changes in our laws. That's not the point here and this ain't comics. I know that even though you've only been at this game even less time than me, you love it like I do. That's what this is about. Go back and read the whole thread and then tell me if there's not some merit to enforcing the rules.

Once again, for those of you who haven't gone back and read the whole thread, I don't care about the laws, regulations, right or wrong or moral implications of jack [*****]. That's a discussion for another board entirely. What I do care about, passionately, is obeying the rules our sanctioning body has laid down for our events and making certain that everyone understands the importance of doing that.

This ain't rocket science folks.

Thank goodness. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[rhett]

I was wondering how long it would take to degenerate to that years-old straw-man argument about speeding on the way to a tournament. Maybe Rodney can pull out one of his r.s.d. links for that.

BTW, even if the proposed change in Nevada were to take place (which is, er...highly unlikely due to the Feds), it still would be illegal to partake in public parks. And not everyone will travel to Nevada or Canada because of changes to their laws!

better not be littering that is against the law, speeding to get to the town of the tournament is against the law. man it is great living in the hipocrit society we live in isn't it...well gotta go turn and burn............. but not on the course and I will not leave residue

better not catch any minors smoking or drinking...... hmmmm arent
we just being silly, maybe you guys should focus on the corupt politics and change the world not dg? just a thought, inhaled


but never exhaled~!

<FONT COLOR="ff0000"> If you're drinking in a plastic cup after telling players at your player's meeting that drinking isn't allowed in the park, then what kind of impact does that have on your credibility as the TD in the minds of your players?</FONT>

I'm not a hypocrite; that was my point. Wading in the pond to get a disc is against park rules. Drinking a beer without a permit is in violation of a city ordinance, and smoking pot is in violation of state and federal law. All 3 are exactly the same according to the wording of our rulebook. If you expect me to DQ someone for smoking weed, It would be hyporcritical of me to not DQ someone for going in the pond.

Where do we draw the line?

From the rulebook:
<FONT COLOR="119911">An official warning of disqualification may be issued by a director where appropriate. </FONT>

If you think smoking pot at the tournament warrants the same action as warning someone to not go in the pond (I assume you tell the players that it's against the law to go into the pond), then give them a warning. Whatever.

"based on the severity of the offending conduct."

Those that think that smoking pot at PDGA events is not a severe infraction need to make it clear to the PDGA. That will help sift everything out.

Matchu,

"I'd love to change the world, but I don't know what to do. So, I'll leave it up to you."

My family, my friends, business, DG and music, that is my world. We should all try to make positive changes in aspects of our lives. Those are mine and I have always tried. Hopefully, someone whose life is politics and/or science, is being just as proactive in making changes in their world.

Rhett, I kinda think Seelbach was just giving me crap, cause, well...that's what we do. Randy's a good guy who enjoys this sport as much as I do and I doubt he'll be bringing his radar gun to any event anytime soon. Of course, you never know.

Jim, I haven't been around as long as you. Tell me, has the hypocrite argument been around as long as the 2 meter drama? /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif How often do people let their inability to deal with all of a problem stop them from dealing with any of it at all? I'm afraid the answer to that is way too often. Don't be one of those.

You know, one of the best things about DG for me has been the friendships and the friendly competition. As a player, volunteer, sponsor and, for a short time being employed in it, the people have been the best thing about disc golf. After only close to 3 years, I've probably managed to submarine some of those friendships by starting this thread. That $ucks, really hard.

Still, I plan to be playing this game well into my 60's and as far beyond that as I can make it. I'd like to think that all this will be a positive and come out in the wash.

all i know is if my course gets pulled i will throw at the trees that were there before the baskets.

martyr, just funnin, sorta, you know or hope you know i be your bud

its all good, man.

[rhett]

all i know is if my course gets pulled i will throw at the trees that were there before the baskets.

I've got an idea: how about you skip the drama and pain in the a<FONT SIZE=" 0">s</FONT>s that that would be to all the disc golfers that will miss your course, and go to a different park and throw at trees when you drink and smoke?

I can tell you from personal experience that the penalty for having an alcholic beverage without a permit was a $25 fine (at least in Tucson). I also happen to know that a local squid/disc rescuer/entreprenuer was fined over $100 for wading in the pond (in Scottsdale).

That means that wading is more severe than drinking (at least in the city's eyes). Does that mean that wading should be a DQ while drinking should be a warning?

no response to rett or nick from me sorry


o.k. besides this one:}

[keithjohnson]

i think that jim should have been dq'ed for both infractions added together /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

he should be dq'ed for running tournaments that cause me to give up a sport i once loved /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

and most of all he should be dq'ed because he knew it was wrong and said it was wrong and he is supposedly one of the disc golf rules zealots and wasn't following the rules /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

by the way we draw the line where we call ourselves on things we KNOW are against the rules
but i don't see that happening in the near future as much as martyr/mark,pizza and others wish it would.....it will take a while(probably years)before things are as you are hoping they will be

[Pizza God]

I disagree Keith, It is happening here in Texas, Just ask anyone player that has been playing for years. I have only had one tournament in the last year that anyone even asked to light up on my card. They know better.

Now with more players saying NO, more players will be thinking about it. When they understand that we don't want to change there lifestyle, we just want them to keep it off the course for a weekend.

I talked to several players before the Carrollton Open this year. Yes I had several "smokers" at the tournament. The ones I talked to all agreed that a tournament is not the place to "smoke". Some of these are players who use to smoke all the time, even at tournaments.

The problem seem to be in the lower division. Most of the players who are taking a stand are in the upper division where there are only a few players who still don't get it.

Frank, we have talked about this in the past, you know what is going on, just remember what happend in McKinney and you can see the problem we are facing. There is nothing we can really do about the casual golfers. But we can do something about tournament play.

BTW, I only saw one beer all weekend at the CO, It was on friday night during doubles, I told the guy to get rid of it and that I will be calling players on it all weekend.

if it is the lower division, then who is watching.
don't judge a man by his ability to throw plastic.

Okay Keith, I came, I saw, I conferred. Bryan's right, things are changing here. There's a palpable new respect for the rules, overlooking moral judgements, that's beginning to set in here at Tejas tourneys.

Whether or not its gonna take a while before the "keep it off the course" faction is satisfied with the progress remains to be seen. But there is a definite feeling among smokers (and let's face it, that's who we're trying to reach here) that since nobody gives a dam what they do away from the course, they can find it within themselves to respect the rules during an event. Its a step in the right direction.

Now go to bed.

[keithjohnson]

agreed it is a step in the right direction but it will take time....and remember almost half of the texas tournaments are NOT PDGA sanctioned ...even though they play by pdga rules....still makes it tough for things to have bite when the pdga isn't involved in FURTHER discipline when the tourny is not sanctioned.....just my thoughts from someone who plays disc(played disc)golf all over the us and not just in texas...it is going to be a lot harder to get nationwide enthusiasium as it will be in your neck of the woods.....if you notice most of the other posters are texas td's that already are doing something or agree with you and rhett from cali who has been on this from before...lets see if the national tour helps stop those nationally touring players from breaking the rules(all rules not this rule) and we will go from there ...keith

[ching_lizard]

Matchu I don't think anyone was speaking about ability to throw...it's more like the Pro divisions are acting professionally. Probably because that division stands to benefit the most from cleaning up their act so that it will attract larger sponsors.

So who is judging?

[Pizza God]

I agree with you on that one Keith. (touring Pros)

I will also say the the Texas 10s will be some of the cleanest tournament around. Chris WILL DQ you and WILL NOT let you enter another if he catches you. He has stated this and I think he is only looking for someone to use as an example.

Remember, baby steps.

Keith, I felt that maybe I was wrong in my stance and I was thinking most players would not come to Carrollton because of my stance and the fact that someone who I turned in was running a "No Jim's Open" just down the road. BUT, when you have 189 tournament players show up you start to think maybe it doesn't matter that much. If you run a quality event, they will still come. (of course when you guarantee $1000 ace pot and $1000 1st place Pro Open helps) (1st ended up $1100)

Half, Keith? I think crunching numbers for Am Worlds has damaged your math circuits. There's plenty of PDGA sanctioned events here (even one of the ZT10's is sanctioned). Also, I think a change in PDGA events in one region will have more of an impact organization wide than you're giving it credit for.

Sorry I'm still up. I'm trying to finish my last Ziggy, and its against the law to waste one. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Mark, I was just wondering if a person is seen giving another person a Vicoden would both people be DQ'd? By law there would be two people commiting a crime. This will be fun to dig up how many laws a person actually breaks during a tournament in order for all of the "police" minded people to enforce. I might be able to get enough people DQ'd that I could move up to the first card.

Hey, there's a way you could beat me!

A great many PDGA tournaments have prize-payout structures which make them violations of state gambling laws.

A great many PDGA tournaments feature retail sales which are in violation of state and/or local sales tax laws.

A great many PDGA tournament winners do not properly declare their winnings as income for income tax purposes; federal, state, etc.

I could cite a legion of specific instances, but for the moment, I won't.

DQ 'em all?

I say we start with baby steps. What defines a baby step? Why, it's something that cracks down on violations that really tick me off, while continuing to tolerate minor violations.

I say, let's not compare the violations that tick me off with minor offenses. That would just be the same old straw man we've heard before. What defines a minor violation? Why, it's a violation that does not annoy me, or one that I am guilty of.

My straw man can burn your straw man down. And calling your tin man a straw man is a straw man itself. Straw men are very flammable. So no smoking. Or littering. Or speeding. Or tax evasion, or gambling, or hate speech, or illegal parking, or underage posession of cigarettes, or even ... well, even committing crimes.

DQ 'em all. Start with the one-centimeter stance violations. Now that's a baby step.

[klemrock]

Just a question:
Is there any kept history of tourney DQs for these infractions? How about appeals?
Would the disciplinary committee be responsible for this?

Thanks for clouding the issue here Ron. We've had so many people get on board and be so helpful, that I needed to be reminded that there are still folks out there that would rather argue and play junior counselor than try to be part of the solution.

Mark, thanks for simply arguing and acting as my junior counselor. You're in good company. You're not the first one to force the topic to drift for your own amusement. Only the most recent (until I hit that button). And one of the more sanctimonious.

The most fun wins.

Okay, fine, here's one on topic for 'ya.

Stop smoking pot at our events. When a person does that, they jeapordize the game, the events, the course and our growing public awareness. That's a problem we can start with and one that we as players, TDs and organizers can actually get a handle on. Its also a problem that could be a lot more damaging in the short term, with all the corporate eyes now being turned our way.

How was that?

[rhett]

Ron, would you rather just play by no rules since so many are disregarded currently? What is your proposed solution?

Let people have all the fun they want. If you see them smoking pot, notify the TD. If you think the TD could care less, notify the PDGA. The PDGA has stated it's intent to put an end to the smoking Nirvana at PDGA tournaments.

There is little need to argue about it. There is less need to figure out ways to continue smoking at PDGA events. It is coming to an end and there is nothing anyone can do about it. Except take your chances. When you get reported, be sure and whine about how you've been done wrong by the reporter, the TD, the PDGA, your city, your state and of course, your country. Just because you can't go a few hours without it. I guess that may be proof that it's more addictive than anyone thought. Heck, junkies can go more than a few hours before their next fix.

But I know...it's not that. It's just you can't stand the thought of not doing what you want to do for a few hours. It just aint right for you.

[klemrock]

Yet another good point, Mark.
Grass roots can't grow if constantly swaying in the wind on the Serenghetti plains.....

[klemrock]

Randy, I'd like to expound on your point.
If someone really wants to be able to smoke at events, that person should state his case with the source, not the middleman.
Call your Congressman. Write the AMA. Join NORML. Don't bog down the PDGA with complaints.

[rhett]

Well put, Jim. And for all of you who are about to start spouting the NORML party line (heh heh), remember this: Civil Disobedience is lighting up on the steps of city hall, not hiding in the bushes of a little city park.

[orotter]

Next we'll be burning our draft cards and sounding like Steven Tyler (http://socalgal-1.net/wav/yell.wav)

No, Rhett, I would not rather play by no rules, nor respond to such straw men as you seem to be so intimate with. I would prefer to play by the PDGA rules. The famous 804.05(A) allows the penalty to be at the TD's discretion. If a TD decides not to DQ, he IS within the PDGA rules. Many rules which specify no such discretion are flouted, even in the highest divisions of the games.

I would propose that all the rules be followed. And a TD who lets a few tokes slide unpunished IS following the rules.

The reason that cannabis smoking gets so much heat while gambling is ignored has little to do with the PDGA rules, nor state and federal criminal laws. It has everything to do with people who are furious at the thought of cannabis smoking, but don't particularly care about numerous other illegal activities. People who are incensed that the PDGA has given the TD's discretion in the matter, and that the TD's exercise that discretion in a way that they disagree with.

Enforcing all the rules as written would be a good policy. Picking on one rule which is, in general, followed (TD's discretion) while ignoring other comparable rules (speeding, gambling) and flouting actual cut-and-dried rules of play will get us nowhere.

I spent some time today talking to a couple of friends of mine about this. Both of them are casual players, although one of them plays alot more than the other and has played a couple non-sanctioned tourneys. They are both avid smokers. Their responses were different and interesting.

First, the player that plays more often. This is a good friend of mine with whom I play golf an awful lot. He's aware of the controversy I've involved myself in and when he stopped by this morning, we talked about it. He said that there's just too much publicity being given the sport right now to allow for continued smoking in tourneys. Now, this is a guy who is oft dressed in Gas Pipe style t-shirts and has always believed in being able to smoke wherever he wants to. He's very open about his pro-legalization stance. He added, that with all the exciting things on the horizon for the game as a whole these days, the risks for others, not just himself, were no longer worth taking.

As for the second person, I wouldn't be surprised if their's was the same position as a lot of casual players out there. "If you guys want to take this game all serious and try to make it a real sport, that's fine. But Frisbee Golf was made for stoner's to go out and play high." This person was pretty adamant that folks who are trying to rid of pot use at tourneys are missing the whole point of DG. "If you want to have all these rules and be all serious about it, why don't you go play real golf with all the other old uptight white men?" I gotta admit, I laughed my [*****] of at that one.

While I was pleasantly surprised by the first response, I was not surprised at all by the second one. I understand that when someone buys their first golf disc at the Gas Pipe, it seems a contradiction in terms to turn around and say to them, "We're trying to get smoking off the course."

I hope nobody thinks I'm trying to say I have all the answers, 'cause I don't. But I do know that starting a trend among tourney players to keep it off the course could eventually make a big impact on both our image and our numbers. And by numbers, I mean players and dollars.

BTW, Ron, the following responses to your assumptions are only based on my reasoning:

"The reason that cannabis smoking gets so much heat while gambling is ignored has little to do with the PDGA rules,(Wrong) nor state and federal criminal laws. It has everything to do with people who are furious at the thought of cannabis smoking, (Wrong) but don't particularly care about numerous other illegal activities (Wrong). People who are incensed that the PDGA has given the TD's discretion in the matter (Wrong), and that the TD's exercise that discretion in a way that they disagree with (Perhaps a little truth to that one).

Let's pursue this from a different angle. Let's hear how pot smoking should be allowd at PDGA tournaments and how to make it a level-smoking field.

I'll try first:

It's OK to smoke pot at PDGA events as long as you do it discreetly. First, we have to determine discreetly. Should this mean that no other players should know or should this just pertain to non-players. After all, the players should be able to keep a little secret. It should be against the rules for players to let anyone know who could have an adverse effect on the course being at the park.

If discreetly is to mean other players (it probably should...there are members that play who hold positions in city government so there would be a crossover effect that would not be fair to require them to keep it a secret), then it would be exactly the same as it is today!!!

Even if it was ok to smoke pot at PDGA events, it would have to be done discreetly. Discreetly would have to mean that nobody sees you. Once seen, it would have to be against the rules.

It doesn't even freaking matter if it's against the rules or not! A player can't be seen smoking pot at a PDGA event. There is no way to make it fair for a city manager who is playing at a PDGA event. Is there? No. There isn't.

Go ahead...let's hear how to allow smoking pot at PDGA events. Forget your stupid side arguments about speeding, ponds and paper cups. If a player is seen speeding in a public park at a PDGA event, your dang right they should be reported to the TD. If a TD is drinking alcohol during a PDGA event at a public park that does not allow alcohol consumption, you're dang right they should be reported to the PDGA. If a player is retrieving discs from locations where they have been notified not to retrieve discs, they should be reported to the TD.

Shut up with the stupid arguments and start thinking about how easy it is not to speed, not to drink alcohol where it is prohibited and not to retrieve discs from where it is prohibited.

If you want to argue about what the penalties should be for each of these infactions...great! Using those arguments to try and argue the validity of reporting pot smoking (where the PDGA has issued a statement on this thread that says it will not be tolerated) is stupid. This thread is about reporting pot smoking to the TD. The thread where players start saying the penalty should be immediate disqualification hasn't started yet.

I have some opinions on that issue but I will save them for the proper thread.

[klemrock]

Randy, I enjoy tongue-in-cheek humor, but come on! Also, this thread is named: "DISC GOLF RULES: Insert 804.05 A. (4) Discussions Here", not Reporting pot Use To TDs.
This side discussion of determining if playing in tourneys constitutes gambling is moot. If a person's [*****] is puckered up that tight, what the heck are they participating in a sanctioned event? Perhaps that is what the RDGA is for.
Just M2C :----)

Yeah, what he said!

The rule is simple. Things done against the law are to be dealt with by the Director. The director can issue a DQ or warning thereof.

The question seems to be, is it the responsibility of members to report these type violations to the Director?

If it isn't...members who report are going to be tattletales and members who don't report are going to be good open-minded people.

If it is...members who report are doing what is required of them and members who don't report are not doing what is required.

So...PDGA...are we required to report pot smoking at PDGA events? If we are...I'll start doing it. If we aren't...I won't.

[mitchjustice]

[*****] Randy...Hope to see an answer to that one/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[neonnoodle]

Randy always does what he is told.

Now be quiet and go sit over there...

/msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

I'd like to bring a post back to the front here that I'm still very interested in hearing some response to. I was waiting until alot of these folks came home from Rock Hill, but now they're home, and I still haven't heard squat.

Friday, Oct. 18:

You know what really amazes me about this whole thing? Silent leaders.

We all know that some of the best and brightest players, organizers, manufacturers, administrators and pioneers of this game read this board. Many post and many don't, but we know they read. Logically, we can assume they're reading every word on this thread with a large degree of scrutiny.

So, where are they? Are they afraid we won't buy discs from them anymore? Play in their tourneys? Attend their minis? Vote for them? Just don't want to get their hands dirtied by this discussion?

There are a lot of folks in that group that we listen to very attentively. Their opinions hold a lot of water with most of us. One word from them is often all it takes for us to try a new throw, change our putting style, attend an event we otherwise wouldn't or buy a new disc.

Why then are they absent from these discussions? Is it simply easier to let folks like me and others be cannon fodder in this fight until the scales are tipped toward a more comfortable direction?

I'm not trying to be a smart ***, and this is not a troll. Its a legitimate concern. I think this is a unique opportunity for some of these folks to re-up on their dues to carry the "leader" moniker than many of them have worn so well for so long.

Mark, I think the answers to your questions are a lot more simple and obvious than the answers you suggest. Use Occam's Razor.

I wouldn't say that. I mean, I'm pretty simple and I don't know what the he11 you're talking about. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[keithjohnson]

by randy wimm..
If a TD is drinking alcohol during a PDGA event at a public park that does not allow alcohol consumption, you're dang right they should be reported to the PDGA.

are you reporting him then randy??? /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

If a player is retrieving discs from locations where they have been notified not to retrieve discs, they should be reported to the TD.

he did report himself to himself(he was the td) and i was on his card...but said that he would not penalize himself

so we are back to the question of WHEN are things going to be changed???
answer.....when the people running tournaments and the powers that be that sanction the tournaments.....START doing something about it....until then this is just like the 2 meters thread and drot thread and any of the new am names threads....nice to come on and yap about but NOTHING getting accomplished anytime soon.....

come on nick..please just once READ carefully before you reply...thanks in advance....keith

[sandalman]

Occam's Razor is theory that the simplest explanation for events is the most likely.

in this case, Ron is suggesting that the PDGA leadership does not care if the no-smoke rule is enforced or not. hence their silence.

[Pizza God]

I too am waiting.

Another note. I am starting to work on next years schedule for Texas. I have already had a few TD tell me they support the Clean Air tournament, but are worried they will be dragged through the mud like I have been.

I keep telling them that they will not be, I have already been the one to catch the heat, it will not be nearly as bad the next time. Each time it will be old news. Eventually it will not even be news if you are DQd for smoking at a tournament.

Because of my position, I know of most things that have been turned in to the PDGA, I also know that Craig and me have been the only players to catch any heat from it on this board.

I also know that all the people who have bashed Craig or me on this board did NOT know the facts behind the incident. This was really evident on the No Jim's Open thread. Until I posted the Email I sent the PDGA, I was hearing all sorts of LIES and truth stretches.

Pat, I'm genuinely impressed that you speak Ronese. Thank you.

However, after that translation, I must report once again...I disagree with Ron.

I think the PDGA leadership does care, on most levels (leadership in this usage meaning alot of different folks). I also think things are changing within the organization and while that may have been true at one time, its not anymore.

That's one of the main points I've been trying to make since this discussion got under way. Its coming, be aware of it and deal with it.

[keithjohnson]

i'm ready and waiting ,but i won't turn blue doing it /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

texas is after all no matter its size...still only one state and still even though it has several good things going for it NOTHING will change overnight which is my only problem with this whole issue...
100 to 1...i bet that next year at this time...SOMEONE will still be bringing this point up and pointing to this thread and saying....you know that keith dude is smarter than we thought
and if none else does i'll make sure i do so i won't be wrong /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

by the way...ALMOST ALL if not all pdga bod read this board but only a couple of them will post on here NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU SCREAM for them to....for the reasons that theo and terry say....it is very difficult to go on the board and post on threads without your personal feelings coming into play and THEY MUST look out for ALL of the members interests...not just a few....

i can't believe i am going to agree with nick on anything /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gifbut he is ABSOLUTELY right when he says that if you want to change something you need to get on a committee or put yourself on the ballot to get elected and try to change things.....

> in this case, Ron is suggesting that the PDGA leadership does not care if the no-smoke
> rule is enforced or not. hence their silence.

<FONT SIZE=" 2">There is no "no-smoke" rule</FONT>

There is a rule that says breaking the law or park rules is a violation. Smoking certain substances is illegal therefore, that falls under the general "don't do anything illegal" rule. That same rule also applies to anyone speeding, littering, or wading in ponds when that is specifically against park rules.

Further that rule very specifically leaves it completely up to the discretion of the TD on how to enforce it. His/her choice is either give a warning or DQ the player.

[keithjohnson]

i don't remember you warning yourself /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[ching_lizard]

Pizza God: I am another one of the Texas TD's lobbying for the Clean Air act at PDGA sanctioned tournaments! You aren't alone there!

Martyr's assertion that the atmosphere is changing at the top is right on target. You know how slowly the machinery of management turns sometimes, but <U>it is turning!!!</U>

The driving force behind all of this is going to be big-time publicity generated from television coverage. The general public doesn't want to see smoking and beer guzzling in a sporting event. If they see it, they will most likely turn the channel.

With the investment the PDGA has made in hiring a promoter to seek ways to bring about big-time sponsors, we as disc golfers cannot afford to have viewers turning the channel away from disc golf. Television viewers of disc golf are what are going to elevate our sport to the next level.

When we get to that next level, purses/payouts are going to elevate to a level that we have only dreamed about in the past. Folks - this is a reality! It is happening right now! Disc TV has had a very successful season and is continuing to forge ahead in bringing knowledge of disc golf into the public's living rooms.

This ISN'T about anyone taking a moral stance about smoking or drinking or player behavior - except that the TV viewing audience dictates the moral stance.

We've all got to look at the "Big Picture" here! The time to stop and consider this is right now, at every sanctioned event we hold. I expect to see Disc TV's success dictating many changes in order to move us into the big-time.

I can't speak for anyone out there other than myself, but I know that I am one that intends to work hard towards seeing this game get to that next level...I have focus, vision and drive.

I won't sit idly by and let anyone jeopardize this opportunity that we have to make it happen. So yes Bryan, I'm another one of the Texas TD's sticking my neck out to take a strong stand on Clean Air tournaments! You aren't alone!

[sandalman]

the NO SMOKE rule, no matter <FONT COLOR="FF0000"><FONT SIZE=" 2">HOW BIG YOU WRITE IT</FONT></FONT> on this board, is meaningless as written, UNLESS a TD is willing to take the heat and get labelled all kind of nasty terms.

that is, until the PDGA exercises some leadership by REQUIRING enforcement.

it is NOT FAIR to the TDs or the players who are trying to clean up the game's image to place the burden on the TDs.

remember, the TDs are supposedly starving for entry fees, and running sanctioned events is supposedly a profit-less task. many, if not most, of the players at events are personal friends of the TD! it is hard for a friend to bust a friend. making it mandatory solves that dilemna.

until the PDGA accepts the leadership role is SHOULD accept on this topic, TD can be expected to give in to peer and other pressures by looking the other way.

[ching_lizard]

Sandalman: It's another good case for why there is a strong need for paid PDGA TD Officials at all A-Tiers and above. Those events are the ones most likely to get TV coverage.

It wouldn't surprise me if a way can be figured out (with TV sponsorship) for hosting organizers to be able to make money by hosting these tournaments while paying for PDGA Officials to be present too.

I'm telling you, it's already happening with the success of Disc TV! The word is getting out via threads of conversation like this, and with stances like Pizza have already taken. Have a talk with almost any of the touring Pro players, and they will agree that it has been changing a lot already and needs to continue to "clean up" for the sake of bringing more money into the sport. They want to see it!

[ching_lizard]

Oh yeah, and I'm proud that Texans are helping to lead the way! /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

[keithjohnson]

right on shoeless one!!!!

and ching i REALLY hope you are right....if the pdga DOES back the td's decisions(or officials decisions) and stop letting some WELL KNOWN players get away with things (especially at larger events)because of who they are are who they know...then i believe it will be easier for ALL td's as they WON'T have to stick their own necks out(no matter how strongly they believe)and suffer the consequences or be ridiculed in public or on this board for standing up to what they believe in..

[ching_lizard]

I forgot to say that I agree with the "Shoeless One" too! /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif Having paid PDGA TD/Officials will take the burden of responsibility off from the current TDs for enforcement. They won't be labeled as the "bad guys" the PDGA will.

[Pizza God]

Keith, do you remember my email or was it post to you before Am Worlds. I wanted you to post that Am Worlds would be a "Clean Air" tournament.

I did that because another board poster stated that he would never play an event that stated "Clean Air", in fact, I think he even coined the term.

You would only post that ALL PDGA rules applied and did not post what I wanted you to.

2 years ago, no TD would even state that there tournament would have "Clean Air". Now several TD's are stating it here on the board. That is progress. (what I mean is that no one said anything other than at the rules meeting, and then the smokers still smoked when they wanted to)

As Larry Kruse (Super Tour TD) has stated, times are changing. Larry has desided to do something about it. He has now run a tournament and understands what some of us have been saying for a while.

And yes Keith, as long as there are those FEW players who still partake at a tournament, this thread will need to stay alive.

I hope that by the end of next year, we will not need this thead for at least Texas. Either the offending players will stop or be DQ'd.

[rhett]

I applaud all your efforts in the Republic, but we've been DQing clean air offenders from super tours out here for three years.

Well, let's see, four very respected TDs have been among the last few posters, all seeming to be of one mind on the topic (basically).

Two of these have put themselves in a position of heat already and done something about it and the other two have stated that until TDs step up and actually begin to enforce this rule, nothing will change.

That all seems pretty positive to me.

To those who'd still lament that because nothing's changed yet, they're skeptical that things will, I'd say this: Look at the public sentiments of many on this board. If you can't read that and see change in it, then you're not seeing the whole picture.

[ching_lizard]

Whewww! I thought we'd lost you there for a while Mark! Must've made a Ziggy run, eh? /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

i would love to be a trny bouncer
I would love to tell some big headed, idiotic brat with a sense that he/she can do anything they want just because they are whoever they are to get the hell out of dodge because they are breaking the rules of disc golf, which they represent and pay dues to. sign me up, also give me a camera so i can share they expression to the world.!!!!!!!

amen to those who ain't scared of a name!!!!!

[Pizza God]

Well Rhett, It looks like it is going to start here. I only know of one player ever DQ'd for smoking at a tournament. This was at least 10 years ago.

In that case, he was DQ'd to kick him out of the tournament because he was being a pain in MY neck. He was being a "Rules Dick", but not in the right way. Anyone who has ever played with me knows I don't/can't keep track of scores. On one tee I got up and lined up my shot. After I took my time (I take all 30 seconds) I took my shot. He then called me for throwing out of turn. He never even tried to say anything before I threw.

On the next hole he did it again on the fairway. We were about 10 yards apart and I lined up my shot and threw. He never said anything. The other players on my card were standing behind me and did not even see him standing there waiting for me to throw to call me on it.

After the round I told the TDs about it. This particular player also smoked durring and after that round. The "smoking" TD (who were smoking when I told them about it) DQ'd him for smoking.

I did not ask them to DQ him (at least I think I didn't) I played with these players all the time and they were just helping me out. Anyone who knows that particular player would agree with me that he USE to be a pain in the rear.

I am not proud of that now. That player no longer smokes and has stated to me that he supports the fact that I have been "shaking things up around here"

I also know of 2 players in Texas who have been suspended for pencil wipping. One of them happend at this same event (I don't think it was the same year though) One no longer plays (thank god) and the other only plays a little. (busy doing other things)

[gnduke]

I am still hearing a cry for direction. If the PDGA could bring itself to issue a directive (even if only in the TD kit) about how certain offences that fall under 804.05a are to be treated. Broaden the wording to allow more options than either a warning or DQ. As many have pointed out the rule covers more than just the main topic of discussion on this thread.

Let the players know that it is required that the playing feild remain flat for everyone. That all rules are to be enforced all of the time on all cards so a few don't get breaks because they are on "easy" cards.

We know the basic stand, remove the big decision. Make it a requirement to report violations that do not require penalties during play. Theviolations that require warnings and strokes are the only ones that the rules are clearly require be recorded on the score card and reported. Clearly add wording that requires all violations called be recorded on the scorecard for the TDs attention.

[Pizza God]

by Gary "If the PDGA could bring itself to issue a directive - about how certain offences that fall under 804.05a are to be treated. Broaden the wording to allow more options than either a warning or DQ"

Gary, that very question is in committee right now. Depending on what they say, we may have a huge victory or a small victory. (sorry I must be very vage about it right now)

I have also turned in the occurance at the Carrollton Open. I asked them to make a ruling on my desision to stroke instead of DQ'ing or only warning the offending players. I will post there answers to that and the other questions when I hear back.

I may take a while. It was 3 months before letters were sent out the last time I turned someone in. I only found out because the players I turned in emailed me about it.

Keith. You are wrong. If the PDGA comes out and says that it is the members responsibility to report any violations of the law to the director, I will report.

As long as it is left to our choice to report, I will not report.

These issues need to be taken out of the personal arena and into the realm or the organization.

I think the basic issue is that MANY people think pot laws are wrong.
Thus as in our society, many people go about obeying the law, even though they disagree with it.
So when you are someone who disagrees with this law against weed, and are then put in a semi-enforcement role, you sometimes
Chose to look the other way… That is my view…

TomCat

I would support a non-smoking event. However, I don't like the idea of weed being singled out as the only illegal activity. I have seen people pass around prescription drugs like they are candy to those with "pain". Giving someone drugs that are prescribed to you by a doctor is just as illegal as smoking herb. Please take the heat off of just smoking and make it a Drug and Alcohol free event. One person that is doing a LOT of posting on this issue is one of the people I have seen taking Vicoden from another player. If a person is DQ'd for smoking then both players involved in the sharing of Vicoden should be DQ'd as well. After all, it is illegal and that is what the "rule" is all about.

For starters, the issue should be whether or not the PDGA requires it's members to report illegal activity to the director.

If the PDGA was to issue such a statement, then we would all share in the responsiblity to report any illegal activity. The decision to report would no longer be based on things that are more or less important to us personally.

Once this statement was issued, the next issue would seem to be disciplinary actions. At present, this lies soley in the hands of the director in the form of warning of DQ or DQ itself. This is where the debate would revolve around the differences in severity concerning the activities.

In no case, should the responsibility of disciplinary actions be placed on the shoulders of the players.

So the debates should actually be quite clear. Unless we want to continue to speak of our personal responsibilities and convictions. In which case, we will continue to wallow in the mire of our own personalities.

If you want to rely on your responsibilities as a person, I think you would be better off serving the sick and hungry. Yes, we can truly make a difference.

We are talking about a sports organization. We shouldn't have to wage personal battles based on morality and personal convictions while deciding what to do with the rules of our sport.

nice "opaque container" post ching lizard!

Okay, I'm gonna name names (bet that looks good on the front page).

It was me! I'm the guy that took a vicodin on the course from another player. It was in Athens earlier this year. Randy S. was on my card at the time. I was in pain (smart ***), but it wasn't my prescription so I broke the rule. You feel better Randy? I know I do, boy that's just been eating me up inside. Maybe now I can sleep again.

You don't have to say "someone" when you're talking about me. If you had read the thread, like I asked you to, you would've seen that I've never claimed that I never broke this rule. What I have said (since I know you won't go back and look it up), was that I've been guilty of breaking PDGA rules before myself. I have become aware that this is very damaging to the sport I love, and I'm making an effort in whatever way I can to share my experiences and opinions with others because I feel they have merit.

If you don't think that smoking illegal substances at PDGA events is an issue worthy of discussion, fine. You're entitled to that opinion. If you want to continue to talk about all the other rules and the way they can be broken, bully for you. But if you continue to insist that pot smoking isn't any more of a problem than speeding, etc., I have a gift for you. Its an ostrich feather. Maybe it will match the ones you're currently displaying on your backside while your head is in the sand.

[mitchjustice]

Do we turn some one in for smoking pot or not????
What about public urination?(This is a real image problem also)...At the last two events I attended, not once was "smoking" a problem, but people pissing everywhere was...Here is an idea-Have a "marshals" test and certification process that is above and beyond the officals test(which has been made fun of on these pages)...You must have a "marshal" to be an "A" tier...Multiple "marshals" for a "Super" tour...Give these persons some real power to enforce all the rules...The TD's are not going to bust their friends...The players are not going to turn in their friends, get real...This does not have to be a paid position as some have suggested(I think plenty would jump at the chance to clean up the sport )But being on the payroll of the PDGA would bring about some accountability in the long run...I know most of this has been discussed to death on other threads(sorry), but I am tired of playing Disc golf in a large outdoor toilet...I guess now that we can not smell one thing anymore we get to smell another.

[ching_lizard]

Mitch - you are right about urinating in public being another facet of the image issues that Disc TV is going to force us to have to make. One requirement of sanctioning an event is going to have to be a requirement to have XX number of port-a-pots per XX number of players. (I just hope that host organizers distribute them around the course a little bit rather than leave them all at hole # 1 !!! /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif )

[sandalman]

not to mention that while it is a lot less trouble for a guy to get away with peeing on a tree than it is for a female player. a portapotty requirement would make the sport more tv friendly as well as more female friendly.

[ching_lizard]

Good point Shoeless One!

Ching, speaking of DiscTV, anyone else see what I saw in the background as one of the players was putting on hole #2 of the Am Nationals? It was pretty obvious the way the camera person swung the image away quickly that they saw it.

[ching_lizard]

I missed that one...but I know that I was "caught" having a close and intimate conversation with a tree while they were filming the semi-finals at Pro Worlds! Yikes! Good thing that ended up on the cutting floor! /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

Well, let's just say it wasn't a tree violation.

[mitchjustice]

"Hey, is that a bum pissing on a tree over there" says possible sponsor..."no wait, he has on a tournament staff shirt"...and that course had bathrooms

[mitchjustice]

Mark...Tell that to the tree/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[gnduke]

Sounds like a good thread. What is being encouraged by having a couple a hundred people stuck in the open for 4-5 hours at a stretch while drinking lots of fluids and have no facilities. Looks like the organizers are promoting public indecency.

[gnduke]

Now back to our regularly scheduled thread topic.

At the USDGC, there were portable toilets after holes 2,4,10,13, and 18, each with sinks and foot-pump running water. There were also a couple near the driving range and warm-up area.

rodney

[mitchjustice]

Rodney...my last tournament had one(stomach churning unit) for 110 or so people(sorry Dave)...That was the only real negative at an otherwise great event( I had a blast )

Sandalman, solution for women (http://whizzy4you.com/)

[rhett]

Jim always has the best links to post.

[discette]

Oh boy, now I'll be able to write my name in the snow!!!!

NOT!

You can write your name in the snow if you take some Suma Wrestling classes.

I gotta say, this is a drift I never saw comin'.

[Pizza God]

I want to know how he found that site.

[ching_lizard]

I wanna know who is going to reuse one of those things! /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif (And which pocket are you gonna keep it in?)

[ching_lizard]

ah-ha! I got it! It goes in the marker pocket!

[mitchjustice]

note to self..do not borrow marker from Ching

[tkieffer]

It could serve as a backup scorecard in a pinch! Let's see someone access the two stroke penaly for incorrect score on that one!

[gnduke]

Hey...
score cards are stiff cardboard,
a little fold and....

could issue a free foley catheter with a leg bag to all players.... that would solve that problem. They could just empty the bag at the end of the day. Comes with a Vicoden to take prior to insertion... if you can take the pain.. give your Vicoden to Mark!

You know what Randy, I don't know what your freakin' problem is and I really don't care. We've always had fun playing together and I would've thought that if you had a problem with me you'd have the wrinklies to say something about it. Guess I was wrong about that.

Bottom line is, we all make mistakes. If we're smart and lucky, we learn from them. That's what I've done. You still getting away with practice throws during tourneys? Probably not. You had some kind folks on your card in one of the first events you played who told you the rule (which you evidently hadn't bothered to read) and you learned from it.

You got anything to say to me, you know my email addy.

Pizza God, I found it through one of the motorcycle boards (http://www.labusas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=19612) that I read.

I'm glad you guys all liked it.

[gnduke]

Depending on the tone of voice, I thought RS's post was kinda funny. He did forget to put the /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif at the end. Maybe he's just trying to throw Mark's game off.

No, that's not it...

Mark... I e-mailed you

G-Nuke.. If I knew how to put that little smile thingy on the end I would have put a hundred of them. It was intended as a joke. Medical humor I guess does not always go over well with "Rule *****".

[sandalman]

nice link JimG /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif maceman should stock em along with birdie bags!

Maybe someone can get them to sponsor a tournament, and we can add them to the player's pack for the ladies.

Hey Randy, just put one of these things : followed immediately by one of these things ) or one of these ( depending on your mood, and you get these /msgboard/images/clipart/sad.gif /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[thcplz]

this thread is still ALIVE????

SMOKE A PHAT ONE AND 4GETTA BOUT IT!!!

Thanks for your valuable input Mike. Its a good thing I've always been big on lost causes. Sheesh.

[thcplz]

i'm not lost, everyone keeps telling where to go.

south way south.

H E double toothpicks.

[keithjohnson]

By Randy Wimm on Thursday, October 24, 2002 - 05:22 am:
Keith. You are wrong. If the PDGA comes out and says that it is the members responsibility to report any violations of the law to the director, I will report.

what post am i wrong on randy....i reread my posts on this thread and didn't see anything wrong....please let me know

By Ching Lizard on Thursday, October 24, 2002 - 08:07 am:
Good point Shoeless One!

stop stealing my good lines ching /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif
i don't come up with many and then you steal them /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

With apologies to Keith (who's never wrong, duh), I'd like to take issue with RW on that post. I meant to do it earlier, but I got sidetracked.

So if the PDGA doesn't come right out and tell you that you must make that call, you're not going to? Is that what you're saying?

I've definitely got something to say about that, but I'll let you set me straight on what you mean first.

[ching_lizard]

My apologies too Keith - you are right, you don't come up with many. /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif Isn't there an old saying about that? Mockery is the best form of flattery <FONT SIZE="-2">(or something like that?)</FONT>

RW: Your statement has me surprised and baffled too! If a TD says to you "I don't want any smoking at this tournament or it's DQ time. And if you see anyone smoking, I would ask that you inform me of it immediately." then you would ignore it? Would it make a difference to you if you knew that there were DiscTV cameras around the course?

[keithjohnson]

glad it wasn't only me.usually randy is pretty good about reading things ....if it was nick on the other hand /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

and also mark while were here.... i couldn't have been one of the four respected td's from earlier today could i....you are make make people bust out laughing with that one /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif
nobody in seven years respected me as a td why should they start now /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[keithjohnson]

ching...imitation is the sincerest form of flattery

now stop before people start talking /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[rhett]

Randy,

Does "the PDGA" really have to ask you any more clearly than this?

RULE: 801.01 COURTESY
A. Players should not throw until they are certain that the thrown disc will not distract another player or potentially injure anyone present. Players should watch the other members of their group throw in order to aid in locating errant throws and to ensure compliance with the rules.

It is pretty dang clear that you are supposed to watch your card-mates in order to "ensure compliance with the rules". I think the logical extension is that this also includes non-throwing behavior. You know, the old "if a specific case is not included in these rules use the closest rule" thingy.