Tournament Scoring Question

This question has to do with a few things mentioned on the Cheaters thread, but I didn't want to be accused of drifting. There was a comment made about pencil whippers, and it seems like there is an easy way to solve this: have everyone in the group keep score, not just for themselves, but for the rest of the group. Then, at the end of the round, everybody totals their cards and compares to ensure accuracy. Only one card needs to be turned in, but you will have 3 or 4 'backups' in case of any 'mistakes'.

Has anyone tried this in the past?

Haven't tried your suggestion Dan but we always rotate the card every 6 holes, 24 hole format, so that everyone has a chance to see, challange, etc. The scores are said aloud also.

Remember they have to sign their card or get stroked.

[neonnoodle]

I've started keeping my own card for every round over the last 2 months and it has helped in a few ways. About 3 times it has help me and the group to fix messed up scorecards by providing a backup record.

I think it is a fine idea Dan. There really is nothing to stop a TD from doing this.

[rhett]

Remember they have to sign their card or get stroked.

Another non-rule rule, unless they slipped it into the new revision somewhere that I didn't see. The rule is that if you don't sign it you are implicitly agreeing to your score as written. The change is that you have to total your score or get stroked.

[gnduke]

Remember they have to sign their card or get stroked.

New Rules:804.03
D. At the end of the round, each player shall sign his or her scorecard indicating that he or she attests to the accuracy of the score on each hole and the total score...

But later on also in 804.03 D
Players whose scorecards are turned in unsigned accept responsibility for the scores reported.

[gnduke]

Less known, not totalling a card can be 2 strokes.

804.03 F
(2) If it is determined that the total score was incorrectly recorded, either by an error on a hole score or by an error in totaling the hole scores, <U>including omission of the total score</U>, the director shall add two penalty throws to the correct total score.

[keithjohnson]

i told you guys rhett was slipping /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif
remember all these REAL rules at am worlds as i don't want to have to penalize a rules zealot /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[rhett]

<FONT SIZE=" 2">WHY DOESN'T KEITH EVER READ MY POSTS?!!!</FONT>


Keith, I'll repost my post that I posted a mere 11 hours and 45 minutes before you posted.


By Rhett in SoCal on Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 02:00 pm:
Another non-rule rule, unless they slipped it into the new revision somewhere that I didn't see. The rule is that if you don't sign it you are implicitly agreeing to your score as written. The change is that you have to total your score or get stroked.

Let me repost that last sentence one more time for you, Keith:
<FONT SIZE=" 2">The change is that you have to total your score or get stroked.</FONT>

/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif/msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif/clipart/wink.gif/msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

i've seen a few players that always keep their own card. they too provided info that helped "correct a mistake"

that is just one of the many benefits...

i think if many many dg'ers start scoring individually-- in the long haul it will become gospel.

grass roots campaign... /clipart/proud.gif

keep your own score card.

[rhett]

Somebody corrected me with what the PGA does, and maybe we shoudl consider it. If you get the wrong score on your card, one of two things happen:

1) if you gave yourself more than you should have, you keep it.

2) if you gave yourself less than you should have, you are DQd.

The penalty is stiff enough to warrant everybody keeping score for everybody, and then making sure the official card agrees with the others. Maybe make the top of the card person hold the official one. Does't really matter if everybody is keeping a backup since each person is keeping score the whole round anyway.

Get around one of my pet peeves, too, where the guy with the card keeps everybody's score for each hole in his head and then just writes them down without asking. I shouldn't have to ask him to call out names and for golfers to reply with their scores, should I? (It's in the rules.)

[keithjohnson]

just working on ya rhett..keeping my eye on any little lack of conviction in your posts so i can pounce /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif
never say "unless somewhere that i didn't see"..it gives the impression that you are guessing /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif
be firm and be right.....
i know that EVERYBODY at am worlds will play by the rules.....cuz you gotta be a member to play in it and ALL members will have the new rules books sent to them so it should be memorized in the next 7 weeks so that nobody gets called on any violations /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif......keith

[rhett]

Doesn't everybody read that little pamphlet cover-to-cover each night before going to sleep, like A.P. and I do?

I sure hope Rhett isn't referring to 'Penthouse Letters' when he says pamphlet /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[keithjohnson]

i do (both) /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[rhett]

Of course I meant the PDGA Rule Book(let)! /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Penthouse Letters are for the morning. /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

[terrycalhoun]

I threw too soon at the Sandy Point Team Invitational during my last round last weekend - first hole, Hole 9. I was having such a good time talking to the other GMs that I thought we had heard the horn for the start and threw a Comet right down the fairway for a beautiful shot with about a 35' putt.

I think we *all* thought we were okay, but Michelle the TD was standing down past the basket (Holes 9, 10, and 22 intersect there.) and she came out yelling that the start had not happened yet. So I got a warning.

Then, beautiful thought, threw an even better drive that left me with a 15' putt /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[paul]

Uh - we sure could've used this post on another thread - it would've fit right in!!

Here's a new one. A group finishes their final hole with all 3s. The scorekeeper forgets to write them down. They then proceed to total their scorecards by doing /- in reference to 3 being par on every hole and thus getting all of their total scores correct. So with one hole being blank, all of their written totals are 3 higher than their hole by holes, but they are the scores they actually shot.

The rules reference totals being omitted and totals being wrong, but there doesn't seem to be any language specifically pertaining to this scenario. How would you rule this?

[rhett]

No penalty. The total score accurately represents the actual scores shot.

I totally disagree with this as there is no way in heck that an incomplete score card can be considered correct.

Another issue is this: the wrong score is recorded for one hole, a three instead of a two. Then the correct score for the player is placed in the total column even though the hole scores don't add up to total right next to them. What to do? I lost a heated argument to give Dave Dunipace strokes for this very scenario once. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif No, Dave wasn't involved in the discussions. The total turned in was his actual score, but one of the individual hole scores was wrong. If that ain't an incorrect score card, I don't know what is!

Is this another rule that should be subjectively enforced? I mean, if you give yourself one too many strokes, you sure aren't gaining a competitive advantage. Why should you get hammered with "correct score plus two", putting you one more higher than what you though you shot?

[ck34]

In ball golf the penalty for recording a higher score total is the score recorded, no other penalty strokes. On the other hand, recording any lower score is a disqualification. Our rules committee has tried to come up with a rule that's less harsh on the low side and different but about the same impact on the high side.

In Clue's example, I believe the rule makes a distinction between the "total score" and "correct total score". So, if a hole score is omitted, the 'total score' IS incorrect meaning the total doesn't equal the sum of the hole scores on the card 804.03 F(2). The penalty is then added to the "correct total score" which is what the player actually threw that round.

[ching_lizard]

It should recorded as a par plus 4 for the unmarked hole, retotaled and then a 2 stroke penalty added for an incorrect score.

The reason being: If they omitted recording a hole completely, then there is no way the total can be correct as any typical TD would have to add up the scores and couldn't derive the same total.

[sandalman]

isn t there a rule that says something about whoever has the card at the time calling out each golfers name and recording the scores on the card?

obviously in the scenario descrfibed, that rule was not followed. what is the penalty for not calling out and recording the scores?

[august]

Lizard:
Par plus 4 is only for when a player is not present to shoot at the appropriate time. Nothing in 804.03, Scoring, allows the penalty of par plus 4 for failure to record a score. In the above scenario, the TD or scoring official should call the players on the card to the scoring table and ask if they completed the hole, and if they did, record their scores. Then, I believe it would be allowed under 804.03F(2) to assess 2 penalty strokes to each of them for turning in the scorecard with an incorrect score.

Sandalman:
801.01C indicates that failure to properly keep score is a courtesy violation and would warrant a warning, unless that player had already received a courtesy violation warning during the round, in which case it would be a penalty throw.

[ck34]

Also, I don't believe par 4 can be used for the last hole(s) of a round. Not completing the round is a DQ.

[sandalman]

not completing ANY hole is DQ, isnt it? unless it is late arrival? like skipping a hole or not holing out in the middle of a round - thats a DQ, right?

[my_hero]

You must finish the round once you've started. You just can't opt not play or finish a hole.

I thought that, under some circumstances, it was possible to opt out of playing a hole and taking the par 4. For example, if a player has a history of back or leg injuries and one of the holes is a relatively steep slope with no safe way for this person to play while avoiding further injury... Would you ask the player to risk their health and saftey? Is there a rule for this?

Exactly. Who freaking knows what to do. Nice rulebook.

[idahojon]

When I had a thread going on play by people in wheelchairs, there was reference by others to "playing by the rules as written," in other words, taking the relief, with or without penalty, that is offered in the current rules.

So, your player with back or leg injuries would have to throw, declare the lie to be "unsafe," relocate, and take the penalty described.

[rhett]

Not to be harsh, but if your knees can't take it, don't play DeLaveaga. There are a ton of tournaments on a ton of different courses all year long. If you are beat up physically you would be wise to pick and choose according to what your body will still allow. And be thankful that you can still play the flat courses! No special rules for you, though.

[rshelt]

I could find nowhere in the rules that state that if you do not finish the round, you are DQ'D. It only states that if you do not hole out you MAY be DQ'd, and even that has guidelines that are used at the TD's discretion. The last thing it says(under 803.12, holing out)is "The player shall be withdrawn from competition and officially listed on the scorecard as "Did not finish".

Now am I and Steve Wisecup the only 2 people that this bugs?

If you do not finish the tournament ie; quit before the final hole or holes are played, that's not dnf or dq. It's wd, withdrew from the tournament. The wording in dg is funny. In ball golf if you could not finish a round, because of darkness, or weather, then you dnf'd and have to finish the next available day. Dq'd would be if you violated a rule that causes disqualifacation. Withdrew is what one does when he quits or does not finish the tournament, not just the round. If you look in the newspaper you will see they use these terms the way I have presented them, for ball golf. Just the other day we were laughing, because in the dgwn they said about one person,"He withdrew from the tourney and dnf'd.(obviously)
Then today we read the "holing out" rule, and it said the same lame thing.

DNF and DQ are not the players decision. WD is the players decision.


I know that this wording really doesn't matter, but it is just one more thing making DG more confusing.

The players in question played the entire round. The TD would ask the players if they remembered what they got on the missing hole. If the players agree that they all parred the blank hole, then there was no error on the final score and I have missed anything in the rules that state that a missing hole on the scorecard would constitute any penalty. The scores should stand.

If any of the players did not par the hole they would receive the correct score plus 2.

I agree that overscoring should not be penalized in disc golf.

Also, as we all know (hopefully), it is each players responsibility to make sure their card is correct. No blame attributed to the player that was keeping score at the time, please.

[rhett]

An incomplete scorecard is a headache for the TD, as s/he has to track down the players from that card and spend precious time trying to figure out what happened to their scorecard. That alone is worthy of a penalty to me. It delays the shuffle and the making of scorecards for the next round, or the computation of final results if it were the final round.

If it caused a headache for the TD and causes delays then a late scorecard ruling should be applied (only a portion of the scorecard was turned in). If the players are readily available and the TD feels fine about the small bump in the road...then it should be taken care of.

Don't get me wrong...I am speaking in terms of the current rules. I think that any error on a turned in scorecard should be penalized. But...you don't want to be penalizing players for multiple infractions on a card (holes scored out of order) so the penalty is linked to final score.

So...I think the rule is good (other than penalizing overscoring) but I think emphasis needs to be placed on each players sole responsibility for the correctness of their card and in the lack of correctness, the players waiving their right to appeal for rulings which might help their plight. In other words, they are at the will of the TD to either aid them in proving the final tally, or calling their scorecard late in that it hasn't been completed.

Big solution to many scoring problems. Make each player address the scores for every player on the card after each hole. Verify the proper placement and score. At the end, each player must total every players score. Once, the card is in total agreement, the players each receive verification at tournament headquarters that they have turned in their card (they hand it to an official who verifies that they are all present). It's not as preposterous as demanding that each player watches every players feet when they throw! /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

[discgolf6481]

Why does this merit so much discussion? You would think that each golfer should be able to keep their own score. In addition, after each hole, all scores (including the scorekeeper) are called out and recorded on the official card. Don't throw until it is done. At the end of the round verify that the official scorecard is complete and correct. This can be done by calculating the /- to pay, or adding all the holes. Obviously, any conflicts would reflect an error. Also, I usually count my birdies, and count my bogies, then net them. By signing the card, you verify this process. Anything less should warrant the 2 stroke penalty. Anybody that has taken a 2 stroke penalty would probably agree with this comment, and has implemented it in their play. If we start handing out more penalties, we will eliminate this type of discussion, and move on to other issues like ...

1. Not everyone trusts each disc golfer to keep their own score.
2. Just because scores are called out doesn't mean they are placed in the proper location.
3. The current discussion revolved around a card missing a holes scores but since it was tallied by your method, the total score was correct because all of the players parred the missing hole.
4. Scorecards are the source of many problems in tournaments.
5. We like talking about sources of problems and the more we talk, the more problems we make. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

ps...I have received a 6 stroke penalty.

There is nothing in the rules about assessing 2 stroke penalties for failing to write scores for a hole. A TD would be put in a tough situation in this circumstance. Especially if a couple thousand dollars were on the line. So we discuss.

[discgolf6481]

Randy,
1) If you don't trust a player, keep his score, as well as, yours on your scorecard. If he calls out incorrect score, address it.
2) Covered in #1. At the end of the round, you can confirm the "untrusted" player's score. Either confront him then, or wait and stroke him later - your preference.
3) A card missing holes should be incomplete, and penalized. Obviously, any player keeping his own scorecard would correct the official card at the end of the round.
4) Agreed - scorecards are a major source of many problems, and left to the TD to rule. Often the same situation is handled differently from tournament to tournament. A straightforward and enforced procedure would eliminate this subjective ruling.
5) For this sport to move forward, we need to talk about problems, which will lead to talk of more problems. However, we must resolve most of them along the way. Especially the easier ones.
If there was a specific and simplistic rule stating:
A) Scorecards shall be complete
B) Scorecards shall be added corectly
C) Scorecards shall be signed
D) Otherwise - 2 strokes
I believe any TD would prefer this clarity.
PS. I haven't heard much about being penalized when the cards aren't turned in on time. I have witnessed this several times. My preference is to follow the cards in, but I usually sugest that the lowest score take the cards in, they are most motivated to turn them in!

Keep talking, and let's do some resolving!

A)Scorecards must be complete
B)Scorecards must be added correctly
C)Scorecards must be signed and delivered by each player
D)Failure to comply with A, B or C or any combination A, B or C will result in a 2 stroke penalty. There will be no penalty for overscores.
E)A horn must sound to signal the end of a round. (the biggest problem with enforcing late returns is the lack of start time to countdown the allotted time given for delivery of scorecards)
F)A horn must sound to signal the end of regulation time allotted for scorecard delivery. Each player who has not turned in their card by the end of regulation time will be disqualified.

Regulation time is to be determined by the TD prior to the start of the tournament and must not be less than 20 minutes.

Somebody check my temperature, I can't find anything wrong with RW's posts! The apocolypse may be close behind.

[ching_lizard]

If no score is recorded for a hole, how can the score be validated? In most cases, the TD's are checking cards well after the 10 minute limit has expired.

Rule 803.00 E. Rule of Fairness. If any point in dispute is not covered by the rules, the decision shall be made in accordance with fairness. <U>Often a logical extension of the closest existing rule or the principles embodied in these rules will provide guidance for determining fairness. </U>

If you add up all of the scores recorded (skipping the omitted one) the total cannot be right. Therefore - 2 strokes. Now the question is, two strokes to what score since you already know it isn't right. Looking at it, it would appear that the hole was just as if it wasn't played. Next closest rule to that is the late arrival rule...804.02A [skipping a bit] <U>If the player has not thrown after the 30 seconds has elapsed, a score of par plus four is to be entered for that hole. This procedure continues on any subsequent holes for which a player is absent. No holes shall be replayed. If a complete round is missed, or if a player does not finish a round, the player may, at the discretion of the director, be disqualified. </U>

It would seem to me that applying the par plus four method is a lot less harsh than outright disqualification.

[discgolf6481]

Randy,
I like it. How do we vote and move on to the next topic!!!

[woodpecker]

As far as I am concerned if you turn in an incomplete scorecard you "SHOULD" be DQ'D OR seriously penalized. I have done this before and it is total nonsense and irresponsible.

PLAY 18 HOLES OR HOW EVER MANY HOLES FOR THE ROUND,ADD SCORE,SIGN CARD,TURN IN CARD.
ATLEAST BE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR OWN CARD,KEEP AN EYE ON IT.
HOW HARD IS THAT!!!!!!!!

this very same thing happened this weekend. 5 players finished the round, somehow their scorecard got turned in with all the cards having a hole score(the last hole)not recorded.the totals were correct except the guy who birdied the last hole, his total was as if he had parred the last hole. the ruling was, that because his total score was incorrect after the official chosen to make the ruling, filled in the cards and decided that because the one total was incorrect he was the only player to be stroked,correct score plus 2 he just happened to be the player in second place inthe series(6 tournaments) mere points behind the guy he tied with that birdie on the last hole and would have been in a playoff for the final 9 with the guy he was mere points behind he was singled out and stroked even though the other cards were incorrect because they had a hole omitted wich makes it impossible for a third party to correctly total the cards and therefore the total on the cards was wrong, making those cards incorrect. please reply, i think the rulebook is very clear.thanks,james

i am new to the discussion board and i really enjoy reading all the different views i have played for five years and have been a pro for one and a half years please give me your input on this travesty. thanks again. james

The ruling was correct. The players final score was wrong. 2 stroke penalty. There are those of us that don't think players should be penalized for overscores.

As for the travesty...the travesty is with any player that wants the score to be taken seriously, not seriously examining the scorecard and then not making sure the cards are turned in. Scorekeeping is a group effort and should be done as a group each time a score is written down. Personally, as cash prizes become more substantial, I would think players would want to check everyones written score immediately after it is written for each hole.

[seewhere]

no penalty for NOT signing your card..

And WHAT HAPPENED TO THE OCT 13 THREAD??????


/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

randy, thank-you for your reply i agree they all should have done a better job however only the one player with the incorrect total was penalized, they all should have.correct score plus 2<FONT FACE="WINGDINGS">J</FONT> thanks <FONT COLOR="0000ff">james</FONT>

James, the penalty is for an incorrect total score. The other players did not have an incorrect total score. The proper call was made. The rule is very clear concerning the player with the incorrect total score.

As for the other players and their missing scores...any decision to stroke these players would be based on an extension of the rules. Whether or not the extension should be made and the validity of that decision would be debatable to the end of time.

It would be nice if a provision was added for failing to write down scores for a hole. The entire scoring section should probably have a blanket penalty description in line with other rules sections. There are some shoulds and musts in the scoring section that have no warnings or penalties attached to them. There is a statement in the courtesy section that says failure to keep score properly is a courtesy violation.

So...the most direct extension of failing to write scores for a hole would be a courtesy warning. Hey! I'm not saying it makes alot of sense but it's what we've got.

James, the others had a correct total, right?
804.03 F (2)
If it is determined that the total score was
incorrectly recorded, either by an error on a hole
score or by an error in totaling the hole scores,
including omission of the total score, the director
shall add two penalty throws to the correct total
score.

Now, there was also a violation of
804.03 B
After each hole is completed, the scorekeeper
shall call out each player's name. The called
player shall answer with the score in a manner
that is clear to all players of the group and the
scorekeeper. The scorekeeper shall record that
score and read it back, in a manner that is clear
to all players of the group.
However, that rule does not specify a penalty for failure to comply so realistically, no penalty can be given other than a warning.

DGRZ #004

[rhett]

I wish everybody would read that rule, AP. There are only a few things I hate worse than somebody writing down a score for me on a hole during a tournament without ever asking me what I shot or telling me what he wrote. It's really nice, and required, to hear wht the scorekeeper shot, too. Makes it a lot easier to know the order on the tee, too.

hey i appreciate your input everybody but the way i interpret the rule is ,804.03f(2),either by an error on a hole score, means omitting the hole score is an error, how can a score that is not really there be considered a correct score,and would mean the score that is there is not the correct total score.

Gosh dang it!
804.03 F (2)
If it is determined that the TOTAL SCORE was
incorrectly recorded, by these or those reasons...

The other three players total score was correct by these or those reasons. No penalty.

One players total score was incorrect by these or those reasons. 2 strokes.

As for as how can you know what the score is? Somebody obviously asked the players what they scored on the missing hole. They knew what they shot. Situation resolved.

If they didn't know it would open up a whole new can of worms.

[ck34]

Pretty harsh, but it's the rule. Mark Roe and Jesper Parnevik get DQ'd at the British Open because they unknowingly each kept score on the other person's scorecard. It wasn't noticed until after they signed and turned in the cards to the official scorekeeper. Roe had just shot -4 to get in contention including holing a 125 yard shot for a 2 during the round.

That's what happens to BGers who put spaghetti on other golfers' heads and wear aqua pants to a major. Disrespect the holy BG tradition and you'll get your nose whacked. Still happens to me occasionally.

BTW, I read in ball golf rules (don't need to study DG rules anymore, got them down pat /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif) that the BGers don't need to total the holes, that's the TD's job.

Next time I run a PDGA, I might make that a local rule to save me the anguish of stroking math-challenged golfers. I guess I'd need more help adding scores tho.

*** more thread drift, sorry ***
also read in BG that if a player gets DQed during a playoff, that he still gets the 2nd place money/trophy/whatever. Thought they'd be more hardline about that.